The beanball was 94.

OK. But Volquez does throw 96 routinely with his FB, does he not?

I did, in fact, watch that game. I didn't catch all of it because I rarely catch all of a Sunday game but I watched most of it. It started before the Cardinals game so I put it on. The Cardinals game was 5 innings of pretty much unwatchable mess so I'd flip over to the Cards game for a few batters, get bored as shit and then go back over to the Royals game.

I watched almost the entire Zobrist game as well.

I'm a baseball fan, not just a Cardinals fan. As a baseball fan I've actually expressed admiration for the Royals style of play on several occasions, again, on this board no less. Great defensive teams with aggressive baserunning are fun throw back teams to watch. I'll watch great matchups and the matchup of the Royals speed/defense vs. the Jays power was easily the most fascinating matchup of the weekend.

With the DVR, I wasn't at risk of missing anything in the Cards game. When my phone chirped, I switched over to see how a run scored and then went back to watching the more entertaining game.

So try again skippy. I got plenty of context in that game and I still can't see what the hell has the Royals so spun up.

That damn Josh Donaldson pimped one too many HRs on the weekend for the supposedly stoic Royals, I guess.

It's fair to say the Royals have earned a fair share of the criticism they've received.

But to then suggest that they should have emulated the Pirates - a team that has been in several brawls in each of the past seasons, is laughable at best.

They were on Sunday night baseball and they were saying that was a change up he threw to Donaldson and all of the analysts were saying he didn't do it on purpose especially with a change up

Hey, go ahead and move the goal posts if it makes you feel better. I'm not the one claiming the Royals have been perfect angels ALL SEASON.

Some of the crap that happened earlier in the season was pretty embarrassing, IMO. Especially Ventura and Herrera's antics.

I very much doubt he did, but that's when you have to put yourself in Donaldson's shoes.

A changup looks like a fastball and when it's up and in, you spin the hell out. he didn't see that ball get caught and he damn sure didn't know it was a changeup when he reacted.

MLB Network spoke directly to Cain and Volquez looking to incite, however, and made it a special note of the fact that the Royals dugout emptied immediately when Escobar got hit as though they were looking for another confrontation. That was when the Jays responded in kind.

There was no need for the benches to empty at all. If you think it was okay for Volquez to hit Donaldson in the first after Moustakas got hit yesterday (arguable, but not an unfair statement), then after Tulo gets hit, the opposing SS getting hit in the legs should not have emptied the benches. The Royals, again, caused shit that didn't need to happen by ignoring a calculus that THEY established in the first inning.

Major league players can 100% tell the difference between a change up and a fastball. I can bet you that. Moose got hit in the knee and the next game Donaldson got hit warnings were called correctly. That change up next did not mean to go near Donaldsons head. Madson hitting Tulo on a 0-2 pitch is not intentional. Sanchez hitting Esky on the knee you could clearly see that was intentional. The umpire knew the situation and handled it well. It's all about situations

I've watched the replay of the incident several times, and while there is no clear view, it looks like there were a few Jays leaving the dugout before or at the same time as the Royals. Look at the video below at the 2:11 mark.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v324498183/kc...game_pk=415218

So your claim the the dugout "emptied immediately" is more BS from you.

That's why they always hit 'em, eh? The entire purpose of a changeup is to appear to be a fastball and that's what gets hitters way the hell out in front of them. If a pitcher telegraphs them (as many of them will), then yes, the hitter notices that the pitcher's body slowed down on delivery, he hangs in and hits it. Volquez, on the other hand, has developed a nasty damn changeup. He doesn't telegraph it.

No, a changeup coming out of a pitchers hand and traveling near the hitters head is going to look like a fastball in the 1/100th of a second they have to diagnose it and decide. Combine the general nature of a changeup with the fight/flight mechanism associated with a fastball coming at your head and there is no way Donaldson knew that was a changeup when he spun out.

Tulo didn't get hit on purpose Sunday but Moose wasn't hit on purpose Saturday (unless we're back to the "all Royals HBPs are on purpose" thing). If Moose getting hit on accident on Saturday is ample justification for Donaldson getting hit on Sunday, then please tell me why Tulo getting hit on accident on Sunday is not ample justification for Escobar getting hit.

It's been incredible. Mewling ****ing bitches.

Unless there's a better view, it looks like a few Jays came out to protest and the Royals responded, albeit more dramatically.

Kind of like a lot of the Royals problems. They don't start it but overreact and look like the assholes.

Because Donaldson getting hit was to get back from Moose getting hit. Warnings are drawn and that should be that. But Donaldson thought we were coming after him. Tulo got hit on accident on a 0-2 count but why Escobar getting hit was so blatant because it was the first batter of the very next inning. He knew what he had to do

For those interested:

Mewling:

Welsh valleys slang. To drive around in a car (usually a clapped-out Escort/Nova covered in cheap spoilers and Max Power stickers) with your mates, wearing baseball hats, listening to an incredibly loud stereo, in an attempt to impress and then impregnate the local 14 year olds.

'Jon's gone mewling in his Nova. I saw him doing doughnuts in the Iceland carpark. The local chavettes seemed very impressed.'

I'm not saying Moose was hit on purpose maybe the Royals did and that why they hot Donaldson but that's that and warnings were drawn and that should of been the end of it. Batters know the difference between change ups and fastballs and the MPH on pitches.

Wasn't my claim. Wasn't from me. The MLB Network guys brought it out there and had their videos to back it. The videos they looked pretty obvious. That clip of yours shows absolutely nothing apart from the fact that yes, there were Blue Jays on the field...y'know, being as how they were actually playing the field at the time. There were also 2 coaches on the field, one going to the mound to talk to the umpire and the other going to get his pitcher.

Seriously, you're going to look at that video from the 2:10 mark and claim it vindicates you? Shit, you really are removed from reality at this point, aren't you?

I don't know if it's been posted or if you guys give a shit, but Aaron Sanchez got a 3 game suspension for that incident against the Royals.

3 games is ****ing bs. Sanchez is gonna appeal. I think he should because that's a bit harsh.

Ventura got 7 games for arguing with a batter earlier on in the season. He didn't even hit him.

So the Royals are allowed to hit Donaldson after Moose gets hit on accident.

The Jays are NOT allowed to hit Escobar after Tulo gets hit on accident.

Got it.

Of COURSE it was blatant - that's not the point. Neither side is even arguing that the pitches weren't clear purpose pitches. My question is why you believe the Royals purpose pitch was acceptable and the Jays pitch wasn't?

The warning didn't settle things nor should it have by the Royals very own calculus. Once their SS got hit on accident after the warning, the Royals SS became fair game, just as their 3b was fair game when Moose got hit.

Are you ****ing mongoloids really going to keep rehashing the same goddamn points over and over again in this 76-page thread?

Because when Tulo was hit it was on a 0-2 count. No major league player will tell you that you hit someone on purpose on 0-2 because you don't. That was a accident. But when Sanchez comes out the very next inning and hits the first batter in Escobar you can't tell me that's accidental

77 pages actually :thumb:

This is the best shot from the video HE posted as proof:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/pictu...pictureid=1635

And he's welcome to find any screen capture on the video he'd like as a 'better' one. He's correct that the angles aren't perfect but trust me, the MLB network ones showed it pretty clearly and the fact that the camera was panning THAT direction rather than towards the Jays side or even out further cements the point.

Yes, there are Blue Jays on the field. Those guys with the gloves? Those are fielders - they're supposed to be there. The guys with the jackets? Those are coaches - they're allowed to be there to protest their guy getting tossed to the umpire.

The 15 guys hanging out on the 1b line with no gloves or jackets while wearing grey jerseys? Those are red-asses who emptied the benches for no good reason at all. I'm sure they just got to the baselines really really fast after the Blue Jays started it.

**** me, how many times do I have to concede this point - IT WASN'T ON PURPOSE.

It was never on purpose. But the pitch that hit Moose wasn't on purpose either.

If Donaldson was fair game for Moose, then Escobar was fair game for Tulo. If you're going to defend drilling Donaldson you have no choice but to take your medicine when Escobar gets drilled. Again - this is the ROYALS calculus I'm using here. It's the ground rules THEY set when they hit Donaldson with clear intent early in the game.

Y'all need to change your page view counts; that's too much clicking.

15 pages FTW.

Why do you think it's calculus?

Is it not? Aren't we playing eye for an eye here?

Would you prefer the term 'ground rules'?

'they hit our 3b' + 'we don't give a shit if it was on purpose' = we hit their 3b.

::

'they hit our SS' + 'we don't give a shit if it was on purpose' = we hit their SS.

The Royals got bit by their own game and they got pissy about it. Royals fans see them like mothers who sons got shot robbing a gas station. "Donaldson should've just dealt with it" is the new "that attendant should've just called the police"....

This isn't about ****ing what position they play. Jays thought that hitting Tulo was on purpose on a 0-2 count so they hit Esky the very next inning. Jays are the ones who can't let things go

I don't think the Jays thought hitting Tulo was on purpose.

Like the Royals, I don't think they gave a damn if it was or if it wasn't.

It's stuff like this that doesn't make me wanna call MLB Major League Baseball but rather major league bullsh*t.

I never said the Royals weren't the first ones on the field, you twat. I was using that clip as evidence that the Royals dugout didn't "empty immediately".

Ah, I guess I missed your point on account of it being incredibly inane.

"Sure the Royals barreled onto the field en masse for no good reason...but they waited a beat beforehand so it's all good..."

So I guess when you said "it looks like there were a few Jays leaving the dugout before or at the same time as the Royals" it was just more BS from you, right? Or was I not supposed to speak to that particular point but rather glean from its obvious absurdity that you didn't really mean it? Oh wait, you absolutely suggested the Royals weren't the first ones on the field, but keep getting indignant.

Your squad started that shit. But hey, it's okay, mom - I'm sure he was a nice boy that just fell in with the wrong crowd.

Aparently so DJ's numb nuts keeps posting the same thing post after post. I keep thinking its the server when I refresh backing up to old posts :shake:. Maybe he will run out of breath and passout but fear he is on oxygen or in an iron lung.

There's another angle that shows some Jays heading out to the field at the same time as the Royals. It's the one where the Royals player jumps the railing. Again, I said it's not clear. My point was and still is that the dugout didn't empty as you alluded.

BTW, I'm done with this shit. We both have our own views on what happened and we'll never agree.

But the important thing is, you learned a lesson ... From one of TBFIBB.

I haven't been reading any of your screeds but have you explained yet the huge differential in hit batters - both early on and as of today? I'm really not concerned with what John Kruk thinks about anything and I doubt he knows the actual data

No one said Madson intentionally hit him. Nice straw man, though.

Your inferiority complex houses more people than a Mumbai slum.

Straw man? What the heck are you talking about? Then what was Donaldson throwing a fit about? That's the entire discussion. All this other stuff you're moaning on about is the straw man. If you don't think that pitch was an intentional attempt to get him, then why did the benches empty and this become a national debate? If that wasn't intentional then Donaldson really was being a drama queen and the Royals didn't do anything wrong. This wouldn't have ever become an event. The game would've carried on and no one would be talking about any HBPs or stolen signs.

Intentionally beaned near the head in the first. Buzzed near the head in the third; hit in the seventh. But why would he be pissed?

That is an astounding level of myopic homerism.

When was he hit in the 7th?

Buzzed by a ... Changeup.

Watch the games if you want to comment.

And he was hit NOWHERE near the head in the 1st. Good God LMAO

You're embarrassing yourself Hamas

He wasn't hit in the 7th inning. Madson threw a pitch inside, and Donaldson flipped out, walked away from the plate, stalled the game, and the situation got out of control.

And as I've pointed out numerous times, there were two men on base. If he hit Donaldson in that situation, it would've loaded the bases in a two run game for Jose Bautista.

You have yet to make a quality argument why that was intentional. That's the question I've asked now, for the 4th or 5th time. But please, continue on your diatribe addressing everything but that. At this point I'm not going to stop you. You are obviously here just to troll and not engage in any kind of legitimate discussion about the topic.

Just rewatched the first inning beaning. He was literally hit an inch above his massive elbow pad. Lmao. Yeah. Near the head.

You are naive if you don't think those were intentional. Even if we were brushing them back.

I support it but I'm surprised you don't see that.

FWIW, Hamas host great game day threads and has always been very cordial to me.

Wtf?

I know for a fact the 1st inning beaning was intentional. That was textbook intentional. I've never argued otherwise.

The changeup was so unintentional the umpire didn't toss Volquez because IT WAS A ****ING CHANGEUP. Omg this is baseball 101.

And Madson wasn't trying to intentionally hit Donaldson, either. And if you think that, you're a ****ing moron.

I cannot believe this is still a topic of conversation. The baseball IQ on this board is pathetic.

The 3rd inning pitch was a changeup. Most changeups, Volquez included, are supposed to dive. I find it incredibly hard to believe he was trying to hit a guy with a changeup in the head. That would be very difficult to do.

You could argue he was trying to brush Donaldson off the plate in the 7th inning, but that's not illegal. Everybody does that. If you're sitting here arguing, like Donaldson and our friendly Cards fans, that he was trying to take his head off and load the bases for Bautista in a 2 run game... that would be dirty, and stupid. You're basically saying we were okay with throwing the game just to knock Donaldson's head off. If he really wanted to do that, he would've done it with the next pitch. Instead he struck Donaldson out.

Clearly we're just total homers ... As the only team that suffered any suspensions from this ordeal was Toronto

Well, tk13, Hamas clearly watched the game. You know, since Volquez nearly missed JD's head in inning one when Donaldson leaped two feet in the air and took it off his bicep, had to instinctively duck to not get domed by a blazing fast changeup ... And apparently got hit in the 7th inning by Madson in the same at bat he struck out.

Poor guy.

But derp te derp derp, don't you see how many situations we've put ourselves in this year? I mean clearly it's our fault that Donaldson was acting like a bitch for being thrown inside on. derp de derp derp

I guess the "best fans in baseball" are used to making up narratives, though.

I don't doubt Hamas has sports knowledge, and even baseball knowledge at that ... But he's been God damn embarrassing in this particular thread.

Since when are batters entitled to own the whole plate? That is the entire point of brushing dudes back. But these guys these days have nothing to fear with robot elbow pads. If you give the batter the ability to crowd the plate, you can't throw strikes without risking long balls. Hence, you pitch inside. If the batter doesn't respect the space, he gets hit. I thought this was common knowledge.

Only because Sanchez threw at a guy after the warning, not before. The only Royal I could have seen being suspended was Volquez and that was because he all but admitted after the game that he threw at Donaldson on purpose because he pimped HRs.

Is this strategery? Sorry, I only follow the AL. Strategery isn't done in the AL

They could still suspend Volquez if they wanted. They fined Ventura for hitting Lawrie and suspended him for yelling at Adam Eaton.

If they were going to suspend Volquez, wouldn't they have done it while announcing the Jays' suspensions?

That's the point. They didn't. There doesn't have to be a warning to fine or suspend a guy.

...exactly. If the Royals were the bad guys here, they would've seen some suspensions. They didn't. Surprise, surprise.

Baseball 101 does not always apply. All of it was intentional. And I don't care. We've ****ed off plenty of games so screw your pitch selection on the plunks. Crafty is all it is.

You sound like a Patriots fan, defending the undefendable to the end.. And the moron thing is uncalled for.

You're an idiot.

[deleted]

I said really shitty things.

Goddamn. Get your ****ing facts straight before formulating an argument. Jesus ****ing christ!

Um, he stated facts.

I don't seem to remember Donaldson being hit in the seventh inning.

Just lol.

I'll let TK refute the "facts" that your savior is saying

I used to think Hamas had a brain.

No one has said that it was intentional. But put yourself in Donaldson's shoes. You get nailed in the first, and have two go near your ear hole.

But you seem completely incapable of understanding why that might be upsetting. If a guy gets undercut going to the basket purposefully and then takes two unintentional elbows, you can be goddamned sure the second will set him off.

But, as always, if the Royals do it, it's understandable no matter how many gymnastics are involved to justify it. Damn the fact that you have gotten into more shit than any team in baseball this year.

LMAO


Heaven won't accept me and hell thinks I'll stink up the place.

I mean after all, I'm watching two redbitches discuss the 'national embarrassment' that is the Royals. where the **** would we be without that.

Hamas is great. But I couldnt give one **** about his thoughts on this situation.

I think if JD had just walked to first after getting hit by a pitch in the first, the warning would have never been issued and the BJs could have retaliated if they wanted to. JD started running his mouth after getting hit and that's when the umpire issued the warning to both benches.

Osuna got ejected from the game because he started running his mouth after hitting Escobar, not directly because he hit him.

BTW after Madsen hit Tulo, which wasn't intentional, guess who steps out of the on-deck circle jawwing with Madsen... Josh Donaldson. He created the mess which caused everything else.

He does but his awful temper sends him into these manic tirades where he loses sanity temporarily.

I think it's possible to understand why Donaldson was upset. I do.

I also think it's possible to understand, looking at the sanitation, that Madson was neither throwing at Tulowitzki (to put another man on for the red-hot guy who has killed you all series?) nor Donaldson. It's possible to understand that Volquez was not trying to throw at Donaldson's head in the first (it hit him in the upper arm) or trying to hit him with a changeup.

I think it's also possible to say that Donaldson's reaction in the 7th (which included yelling at the umpire for an extended period of time, as well as walking all the way to the screen/towards the dugout) was excessive.

And I think it's definitely possible to say Joey Bautista and Gregg Zaun's reactions to the Madson pitches in the 7th, and his non-ejection, and Volquez's non-ejection in the 3rd, are completely out of line,

The umpire handled things appropriately if you apply any sort of logic or baseball analysis to those situations. Ned Yost didn't say anything inflammatory another manager wouldn't say after that game.

I think Wolf did a fine job, and I don't have many qualms with your points, because they actually bring context into the debate. From a purely logical standpoint, Donaldson shouldn't have barked in the seventh, but no one can be expected to be logical given what had already happened to him. That's what tk has been unwilling to acknowledge, and it's myopic bullshit.

There's nothing myopic about it. I get why he was upset. That doesn't mean he was right. Or that he wasn't trying to make a scene to try and get our pitcher thrown out of the game. Admittedly I try not to fly off the handle every time I feel slighted. People think I do that just to irritate people, but I just don't think it's worth the energy.

I'm assuming Donaldson would understand that no one would hit him with a change up, yes. I do think his 7th inning outburst was trying to get the pitcher tossed. Plenty of guys bark at the umps. He threw a hissy fit and marched out of the box and stopped the game. It's like rewarding a petulant child. There's a difference between being upset and trying to create a scene. He knew what he was doing.

At least we've now admitted that Madson wasn't throwing at him on purpose.

1) The Donaldson question has been answered - again, his fit was towards the ump. Watch John Gibbons argue with Wolf - he keeps saying "I don't !@#$ing care" when Wolf is talking intent. The Jays were never once concerned with intent late in that game and THAT'S why Hamas is saying you're constructing a straw man. The Jays were pissed because most umps still toss him there. They probably toss volquez because again, the rule book is clear that piches near the face after warning are supposed to get little to no latitude. They probably toss Madson when he hits Tulo and they definitely toss him when he gets inside on Donaldson. The rule on warnings isn't purely punitive, it's designed to keep those shenanigans from happening and that's why most umpires will not use judgment calls - they just thumb he guy and keep the game on the rails. Either approach has merit but THAT'S why Donaldson was pissed and to act like you don't get it is just ridiculous.

2) But here's the REAL straw man - who ****ing cares about Josh Donaldson and why are Royals fans trying to deflect blame on him? The benches cleared when Sanchez hit Escobar and again that had NOTHING to do with Josh Donaldson's reactions at any point in that game. That came about because the Royals hit the Jays 3b in retaliation for a HBP the day before. Do you really think it's just coincidence that Sanchez hit the Royals SS the next time he was up when the Jays SS had just gotten hit?

And then as Sanchez is walking off the mound, the Royals storm the field for no goddamn reason at all.

So of course the Royals fans lock in on Donaldson who has nothing to do with the fact that their pack of easily offended juveniles stormed the field...again...after they didn't want to live by the rules THEY established when they hit Donaldson in his first at bat after their 3b got hit the night before. If you're going to go all Code of Hammurabi out there, you don't get to get pissed off when they answer in kind.

There is no way that this question can be answered that any of you will listen to anyway. You'll just start yapping about intent and Donaldson as though ANY of that was relevant to the ultimate fracas. You'll say dumb shit like "of course Donaldson knew the pitch at his face was a changeup because major league hitters recognize changeups"...christ that's idiotic. You'll show videos that clearly establish that your team led the charge but ask us to squint through the rails at that one Blue Jay in the corner (who was playing 3b at the time). You'll do absolutely everything you can to deflect from the fact that yes, your red ass team with shitty self-control got hung up in another bench-clearing incident that THEY elevated by leaving the dugout with no cause.