Clark had a hamstring and a groin during preseason, too.

He's hurt. This is the root cause of this shit.

Well, he needs to sit the **** until he's good if that's the case. The post season is what we brought him in for.

I'm guessing only surgery will make this better, but he can still play with it.

He'll have surgery after we are eliminated from the playoff race in December.

Jesus, the negativity around here has reached critical mass. You'd think we are 1-4 right now.

adjust your sarcasm meter

Fixed your post for you.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Frank Clark signing so far in a nutshell: <a href="https://t.co/GOfw4cGFJ0">pic.twitter.com/GOfw4cGFJ0</a></p>&mdash; Chiefs_all_day (@Chiefs_All_Day) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs_All_Day/status/1181695604042407938?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I guess his defenders just can't make anymore excuses for him anymore huh? They've been notably absent from this thread.

It's pretty clear he's hurt.

Dominant players don't turn into shit overnight.

No, but players that got paid and are complacent may.

His effort is good. I don't think he's complacent.

That’s clearly not the case here.

This is my fear. He juiced up last year in a contract year - willing to take the risk for a big payday. But if he does it now and gets caught - that's 4 game checks or w/e. Not worth it.

Maybe we can start a gofundme for Clark to cover any lost game checks due to PED violation.

Then he can get off the ****ing field, heal up, and come back when he has something to contribute.

Nobody is going to care about his tender hamstring if he finishes with 5 sacks and 30 tackles. They'll just want him to go away.

All I'm seeing is the obvious reason Seattle was willing to trade away a 'dominant' player while trying to compete (which is different than Oakland, who were tanking for as many high picks as they could land)

I'm patient, but the guy has 1 sack and even that was hard to watch since Lamar just gave him a piggy back ride.

Clark really.....

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nnadi gets doubled up to Hitchens. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/JacobsEyeInTheSky?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#JacobsEyeInTheSky</a> <a href="https://t.co/FLPzTeM8X3">pic.twitter.com/FLPzTeM8X3</a></p>&mdash; Nick Jacobs (@Jacobs71) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/1181717377244897280?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Veach making moves

What stands out to me is that Wilson just stands there and wastes the double team Chris Jones is fighting through. It's like he's just waiting for the OL to get off and up to the next level. DO SOMETHING!

Running away from, chips, do you even watch?, bad QB matchup, might be hurt.

CP analysis, never change.

Yeah, and that's just basic LB 101 right there. Meet the runner in the hole. You don't wait for him to get through the hole and then try to make a tackle.

Please more Niemann!!!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I’d love to see more of this. They bring Niemann in for a blitz so it eliminates their ability to double and clogs up the middle. Throw this in the keep pile! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/JacobsEyeInTheSky?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#JacobsEyeInTheSky</a> <a href="https://t.co/dcigvojElp">pic.twitter.com/dcigvojElp</a></p>&mdash; Nick Jacobs (@Jacobs71) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jacobs71/status/1181743774592053248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 9, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ever heard of Albert Haynesworth?

Wasn't he diagnosed with a mental disorder?

I watched a lot of Jacobs' clips. The LBers do not fill gaps. I don't know why they aren't putting Ragland in more now that teams are running on us, at will.

Might as well try.

This is what I was kept saying last year when everyone was complaining about Bob Stutton's 'complicated schemes...'

What Sutton was asking his players, especially his LBers, to do was actually very simple stuff. It was basic flow/fill concepts that we've been taught since high school. You could point to game after game after game where the scheme was obvious but guys like Hitchens (and yes, Ragland) were just not handling their assignments and hitting their gaps.

His schemes weren't complicated - the players just weren't executing basic stuff. And they still aren't so the run defense is still bad.

The failures in the run defense were not scheme based last year. The only reason I held out some hope for improvement was the 4-3 shift at least puts a little more mass in the middle and basic physics should help there. But guys still aren't getting into their gaps and filling like they're supposed to.

I honestly don't know what the answer is at this point. You can only do so much to prevent those kinds of runs if your guys aren't doing their jobs.

He was never a dominant player.

At his very best he was only a good player. Never made a Pro Bowl; never made an All Pro team. His run defense was only ever solid. His pressure rates (which are usually more predictive) amounted to good production but not spectacular. Frank Clark has never had a single season at the top of his position.

That's why I was down on this move from the start - for this trade to be a success Clark couldn't even be as good as he'd been in Seattle - he had to be better than he'd EVER been in his career. He'd have to show a level he hadn't shown in 4 years under one of the better defensive coaches in the sport.

Too many fans saw him as the guy they really wanted him to be rather than the guy he'd established himself as in Seattle. He may still prove to be a good player here at some point - but he's not going to be a 'dominant' one.

He never has been. Veach is guilty of seeing what he wanted to see in Frank Clark - not what is actually there. And merely good players hit the wall overnight all the time due to a variety of things.

There's a real chance that this deal is a disaster when all is said and done.

Disagree entirely. His production was nearly identical to Khalil Mack's.

This kind of gargantuan dropoff doesn't happen overnight without a real reason.

So you are saying they are all functionally reeruned.

Never made a Pro Bowl, never made an All Pro team.

No, he was never anything approaching the impact player that Khalil Mack was. Are you all really that hung up on the fact that he happened to kick the holy shit out of us last year? Or is this just an attempt to double down when the excuses aren't doing the job?

When you can't say "well he's actually been pretty good!" anymore (I still can't believe people were actually doing that 3 weeks in), you have to just justify the struggles instead.

Dominant players will succeed regardless of the system. Merely good players fail because they're not in an ideal situation all the time. Frank Clark is the latter. He's not a guy you build your defense around - he's the guy you add if your defense is specifically suited for him.

This. The guys were in good position last year, they just didn't make plays.

This year, they're not even in position to make plays.

It's somehow become worse.

Sutton has to be laughing.

And yet, their production was in the same percentile.

This large of a gap does not add up. There is definitely something physically wrong with him.

I believe Sutton has his own problems.

Show your work.

Surely you're not gonna just start counting sacks and try to argue they were similar players. You have to have more for me here. Pass rush success%, pressure rates, etc...

I can't find where I saw the figures back during draft season and there's no way in hell I'm paying for that !@#$ing Elite package at PFF to get them anymore, but I remember seeing them during draft season and Clark was good, but not elite.

But if you have data to suggest otherwise, I'll listen.

Plenty.

But the idea that Spags was going to come in here with some magic 'simpler, more aggressive scheme!' and fix everything was laughable from the start.

Execution was a big problem last year and of course the players aren't gonna say THEY sucked. And the film doesn't lie so they can't very well say that they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.

So what's their answer - "well yeah, I was in the wrong place, but that's because it was just too hard to figure out where the right place was!"

You have an unreliable narrator when you're listening to players bitch about how hard the scheme was. It's the same thing Ron Parker was doing about the coverage stuff when he was blowing simple zone reads and not bothering to get downfield when a run was called. He was a bag of smashed assholes but wanted to talk about the scheme as though it wasn't his own fault.

Sutton wasn't a good DC and he needed to go. But there's a long track record of Spags not being much of a DC as well - he's not the panacea some imagined. The individual players on this defense need to un**** themselves and start doing their jobs. Stop trying to blame coaches - you got a pass for that last year even if it wasn't deserved. Now just go !@#$ing play.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Alright, listen, I’m not saying Frank Clark is Khalil Mack. He’s not. But I found these numbers over the last 3 seasons to be interesting. <br><br>Frank Clark - 47 games, 32 sacks, 31 TFL, 66 QB Hits<br><br>Khalil Mack - 46 games, 34 sacks, 39 TFL, 66 QB Hits</p>&mdash; Brandon Kiley (@BKSportsTalk) <a href="https://twitter.com/BKSportsTalk/status/1120771252392738816?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 23, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The funniest thing about Ron Parker last year was that he was resigned BECAUSE he supposedly knew the scheme and could step in at both safety positions AND help the youngsters line up properly/know their assignments/"show youngsters the ropes"...

I do like that QB hit stat; usually a large enough sample size to have some predictive value. I think it was pressures that I had locked onto but the hits stat is a solid proxy. And the TFL being pretty heavily in Mack's favor makes some sense as he's generally more of a 'havoc creator' than a strict pass-rusher and I think that's where we get a feel for the real weight of his contributions.

I'd imagine that Clark was getting quite a few more pass-rush reps than Mack because of Mack's ability to move around, but still -- 66 hits is a pretty fair amount. What's he at right now? 2 I think?

Yes. Also, I don't see 8 TFL over a 47-game span as being "heavily" in Mack's favor. It could have more to do with teams running the ball a lot more against the Raiders.

Khalil Mack has played in 2 playoff games and did nothing. No sacks, no QB hits, nada.

He’s a ghost. Just like Justin Houston and Dee Ford vs New England.

But hey he got 4 sacks off that scrub Michael Schofield in Denver a few years ago. You guys are acting like that guy is prime Von Miller.

He isn’t.

Khalil Mack had 2 QB hits and a TFL last year in the bears playoff game

Hm wow, good teams have a better plan to handle a good player than bad teams? I gotta write that down immediately.

Chiefs got completely fleeced on this deal.

Ok, he was almost as productive as Mack at rushing the passer, but what about other facets of the game? Over that same period Mack was very clearly the more dominant all around player.

2016-2018

Clark
120 Total Tackles
77 Solo
7 FF
4 Pass Deflection

Mack
198 Total Tackles
152 solo
12 FF
10 PD

So if you want to say he rushed the passer as well as Mack that's fine, but Frank Clark is not Khalil Mack in any other way. Mack is elite in every aspect. FC had the luxury of playing on the 3rd, 14th, and 11th ranked defense in the league during those 3 years and KM was playing on the Raiders for 2 of those seasons. The Raiders were ranked 20th in both 2016 and 2017 and then he went to the Bears and was a big reason why they were the number 1 D last year. Clark has only ever done one thing really well and that is rushing the passer. Mack does everything well.

The Chiefs were going to look like they got hosed on any deal. This squad is one giant ass black hole for Defensive players.

There is no super secret injury.

I really don't want to get into whether Clark is Khalil mack. What frustrates the hell out of me is that we could have had Justin Houston, $10m extra dollars, and a first and a second. I don't even think he's better than Houston by a wide margin, let alone $10m plus a first and second.

So what is the deal here? The guy has been really good in Seattle every year but suddenly sucks here?

Are the Chiefs that much of a shithole on defense? Did he get paid and isn’t trying anymore? Is he hurt?

That's a huge difference. Frank Clark averaged 10.3 TFL over that period of time, so 8 less than Mack is damn near a full seasons worth of production for FC.

Our problem is overpaying players. Our "top" players aren't good enough. And the bigger problem is it's really difficult to move on from those overpaid players.

If we were shitty with nothing but 1-year contract retreads and rookie contract guys, that would be one thing. But as it turns out, we're paying Hitchens, Clark, and Honey Badger. We WERE paying Houston and Berry.

And now we have guys like Jones and Fuller and Breeland coming up, where they're perceived to be our truly best players, so then we end up paying THEM. Because if we don't, we're gonna become really shitty, right?

We eventually found a decent defense post-Vermeil by starting from square one. Literally. No overpaid douchebags. No blockbuster trades. We were really shitty for a couple years, but then we found a stride and produced a defense that wasn't exactly legendary, but it could at least stop people.

And that's the problem. If we do that now, we're wasting the best years of Mahomes' career. Yeah. We might be. But that's the only way we're ever going to have a chance at getting him a real defense to work with.

We have only 5 draft picks next year. We lost our extra 2nd rounder (thanks a lot, Frank!) We're not getting any comp picks. Veach is probably gonna get antsy and trade up/back/forward or trade for more people next year, too.

At this point I honestly think we stand a better chance post-Mahomes extension than pre-extension.

I was always told that we had to overpay defensive players because of Smith's anemic offenses. It looks like there is a more fundamental problem.

8 divided by 47 isnt a lot

2020 Cap hit for top 6 players
Clark 22.7 M
Watkins 21M
Hill 17.6M
Mathieu 16.3M
Fisher 15.2M
Hitchens 12.7M

Who is playing up to their number other than Hill and maybe Fisher?

Presently, none of them. Outside of an anomalous week 1, Watkins is averaging about 55 YPG.

Closest is HB.

Brett Veach...whew...

I thought Hitchens/Watkins were structured for an easy out next year?

Hitchens is a $12 mil 2020 hit if cut...yikes! I think he restructured....

Watkins is $7 mil 2020 hit...so he's definitely a candidate for a trade.

Dude is following the scrubs and “stars” model.

As ever, the Pats approach (load up on $4-5K vets) is superior.

I wouldn’t characterize a $12.5M cap hit as easy.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-c...itchens-14530/

We can at least get out of the Hitchens contract with a post-June 1st cut next year.

No, Hitchens is after 2020 and them moving money this year to next on his deal means they have no plans to cut him at all.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">presumably aaron donald is a human. this proves otherwise <a href="https://t.co/xn33Pkc2wq">pic.twitter.com/xn33Pkc2wq</a></p>&mdash; betz (@alltwentytwo) <a href="https://twitter.com/alltwentytwo/status/1181985690218848256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 9, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

How come Aaron Donald gets paid and then doesn't suck?

Why can't we have nice things? You just know if we pay Chris Jones he's going to become average.

What's Gunther doing these days? Can we coax Saleamua and Phillips out of retirement? Phillips' mind is so gone maybe he'll have crazy person strength.

Gunther is dead. I don't think he can help.

This team is going to look very different after this year, going to be a lot of turnover.

Pats are up against it next year, though. Not necessarily financially, but they have to make some hard decisions.

McCourty is a UFA. Brady is going to have to restructure/extend again. Gillmore's cap it doubles to over $18M.

However, they have set themselves up nicely:

Hightower
Cannon (RT)
Gostkowski
Bennet
Chung

All those guys are cheaper to cut than keep, and Hightower & Bennett are a LOT cheaper.

This is their year.

Mathieu is playing up to it.

He is. He's been a great addition.

Breeland has been good too in spite of his bad game on Sunday.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> run defense is basically: Oh, hey Frank Clark! And then... terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible (via Football Outsiders). <a href="https://t.co/QahoYX2Av7">pic.twitter.com/QahoYX2Av7</a></p>&mdash; Brandon Kiley (@BKSportsTalk) <a href="https://twitter.com/BKSportsTalk/status/1181670804561498113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I can't believe we're still sitting here 2 offseasons later still trying to figure out how to fix the ****ing run d.

You know what's so impressive about that play? He tried to engage the blocker for his LBer first.

He wasn't trying to shoot a gap to destroy the play - he tried to engage the man and play within the system to ensure his teammates could do their job. When the blocker shot past him and effectively too himself out of the play, only then did Donald try to blow upfield.

He's just so damn good. He's guilty of taking plays off more than I'd like but when you're that big and play that often, I understand needing a blow here and there. It's not ideal but it's the reality of the position.

But to play with virtually perfect technique, remain schematically sound and STILL make the impact he does is just unreal.

This play is just a ****ing smorgasbord of suck.

Clark gets washed out, legit doesn’t even put up a fight. #50’s over there salsa dancing around a ****ing slot WR. Chris Jones quits on the backside pursuit. Neither Hitchens or Wilson fill the two gaps right in front of them.. just terrible.

Hilariously, if just like one of these ****ing clowns steps up, that play goes for a routine 2-3 yards. But of three or four guys who were in position to make a play, not a single one did.

Outstanding post. Will return to read again.

We just came out unbelievably flat and lifeless on Sunday. Which is weird for a night home game.

The Colts clearly had this one circled and of course so did Houston.

How we bounce back vs. the Texans will say a lot.

Bump

FYP

There you go Clark!

nice play

I really hope that play ****ing kickstarts his season, so far it’s been pretty much shit

Frank Clark just went high school pep band playing Metallica on your ass SNR!!!!!

Oh SHIT!!!

One play a game. That’s about what he’s done all year.

Let’s see him get some pressures. Or force more fumbles. Or do something ****ing important more than once per game.

He just got juked out of his shoes on that Watson scramble for TD

Back to the norm.