They're dumb, and you're dumb.

Go fist yourself you once fat, stretch mark havin, basement livin, starwars collectin, big lip havin, ****ing waste of carbon.

By crap, yes, mainly the saturated fats. But also, what was that grass fertilized with? What antibiotics or hormones did that steer have over it's lifetime? Again, I'm not saying it's for everyone. As my buddy's cardiologist said, "you have the genetics for heart attack risk. Now that you've had one, you need to eat this way." when talking about a vegan lifestyle. There are some people that can eat all the animal protein that they want, and they may have a healthy heart after the sixth decade of life. However, most people simply do not fit into that category. And while there are some in the cardiology community that certainly have done some rethinking regarding saturated fats (hardly a 180), even those would most likely tell you that a diet that consists primarily of animal protein is better than a diet that consists mainly of animal protein, unless that animal protein is fish. Facts are facts. The real killer in our culture is the refined carbs. If you never eat another refined carb, whether it be pasta, most bread, etc., you'd be better off than if you never ate meat again.

Heart disease and cholesterol is more related to genetics than to diet. We are the only country that makes a big deal of this.

100% agree on the refined carb comment.

To the point about grass fed meats a pasture is usually maintained by the animals that are hanging out on it. Cows eat the grass and then turn it into some of the best fertilizer there is. Grass fed animals also don't require antibiotics. Those come into play because of grain feeding (cows aren't designed to digest grains) and close quarter feedlots.

This also can be turned back on the vegan diets. What's being sprayed on the things in your diet?

I've told this story before in this forum. Following a low fat/low cholesterol diet was slowing ruining me. I finally decided to do the opposite of what my Dr recommended and all of my lipid number improved dramatically along with my body comp and blood pressure. Maybe I'm wrong and on the verge of death but I feel better than I ever have and my diet includes a great deal of fat. I also add a TBSP of pure saturated fat to my coffee every morning (coconut oil).

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Well, I doubt you are on the verge of death if your lipids are as you say they are. Like I said, some people are able to eat that way and their body responds the way yours has. Most people are not that way. It also sounds like where you get your animal protein is important to you. That makes a difference as well. As far as grass fed and drugs, you might be surprised to find out how many of the grass fed animals are given growth hormones and antibiotics. Like I said, I'm not trying to change the way the world eats. I'm glad what you are doing works at keeping your body healthy.

Quite frankly, the harping about carbs is grating, I've been ripped, had the six pack... and I did it eating all kinds of friggin carbs, I'd pig the hell out on rice dishes, pasta, whatever, after good workouts.

What I cut out to every extent possible is fat, and it damn well works... there IS more than one way to do this.

The China Study is a deeply, deeply flawed study.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/385/

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

Animal protein also comes with a lot of "crap" that really, really HELPS your heart and the rest of your body, as well, like carnosine and carnitine.

Strict vegan diets can make you severely deficient in many, many key nutrients. Even if you supplement them, it may not be enough because the bioavailbility may not be that great.

http://www.mercola.com/article/diet/former_vegan.htm

And if you really want to maximize your reduction in risk from heart disease, veganism isn't as good as lactoovovegetarianism or those who eat fish (26% reduction in vegans from those who eat meat compared to a 34% reduction in l.o.vegetar. and fish-eaters).

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/516s.full.pdf

Veganism just has too many downsides. It's an inferior diet to other plant-based diets, although it does have *some* statistical advantages if you only look at death from heart disease over eating animal meat. There's no reduction in risk from cancer, and an increase in certain types of cancers.

I should also note that my current diet experiment is, in fact, vegan. I've been doing it for 17 days now, and will continue to do so for the near future.

Pros:

Haven't seen any so far. There's no increase in energy levels or satiety when eating. I guess the fact that I can eat popcorn is okay.

Cons:

All vegan protein powders suck ass. ALL OF THEM. They're chalky, they stick to the back of your throat and the flavor is what protein used to taste like back when you had to choke that shit down. It's awful.

Weight loss is far slower because of the increased carb levels.

Getting adequate protein is a challenge when you're calorie-restricted on a vegan diet. This has resulted in strength and muscle loss far beyond what I experienced last year on my meat-only diet with carb cycling.

I have to take a shitload of supplements that I would NEVER have to take if I were eating even eggs or milk (lactoovovegetarianism). There's so much to keep track of and so much OF it to take that it's ****ing ridiculous.

If I didn't know what I know about muscle building and maintaining, what I've managed to salvage and maintain so far would be a pipe dream for someone who didn't.

Cliff's notes: Veganism sucks.

Cutting out fat does work, if you do it right. You're right in that you *can* get ripped still eating carbs. It just takes a loooooot longer. A lot. Like almost twice as long.

The process is much, much slower than if you cut them out while you're dieting and then slowly add them back in. Or, if you do a carb-cycling diet. It's just way more efficient.

Taking a little longer is fine by me, at 43, I'm aiming to finally make this a lifestyle and not a "kick", I've gotta use a plan I can/will stick to... and I just loves me some potatoes, rice and pasta.

And we also have a longer life expectancy than any other country.

Wrong.

That's fine, and commendable.

The problem, as I see it, is that too much of the carbs leaves little room for error when trying to lose the weight and get ripped when it comes to getting adequate protein and all of the GOOD fats you need, like some saturated fats and the omega-3s.

Carbs are absolutely fine once you've hit that level already.

I know you know what you're talking about, all I can tell you is that my way definitely works for me... theres no huge rush and I'm already feeling so much more energetic and strong.

And believe me, I get lots of protein in my diet, a meal without meat is no meal at all IMO... dinner tonight for instance was 3 wraps stuffed with thinly sliced sirloin steak pan cooked with very little oil and some garlic and sautéed onions and peppers, then topped with cold diced tomato.

They were teh BOMB.

Come to think of it tonight was fairly low carb, just the tortillas.