The part about outbidding the Colts and Jets is relevant. It's GOOD to be that team. You don't want to be the fan of a team like the Colts who just sit around holding their dick, hoping to collect the scraps after the big boys have had their prime cut.

Others wanted Mathieu and we got him.

Others wanted Mahomes and *WE* got him, making a huge splash in a move that many idiots questioned.

Swing for the fences or go home. We've been suffering solid doubles for decades.

I know there's a lot of love for Ballard on this board, but if I were a fan of the Colts, having the run they did last year, going into the offseason at max optimism with unlimited cap dollars, and then missing out on all premier players (ex-Houston), I think I'd be livid.

I was beside myself at the trade deadline last year because I couldn't believe we didn't do anything to better the team and I knew a porous defense would come back to cost us in the playoffs. I had the same sort of fears until we made this move.

Veach gets it. Reid gets it. Even Clark Hunt gets it (Chiefs don't take on this baggage otherwise). This team is damn close. Now let's plug some holes/fill in some depth in the draft and go win a championship.

USA Today:
Chiefs got fleeced by the Seahawks


https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/04/gra...ced-the-chiefs


Now, there are worse ways to spend cap space, but this deal didn’t happen in a vacuum. The reason Kansas City was in need of a pass rusher in the first place was its decisions to trade pending free agent Dee Ford to San Francisco for a second-round pick and let the aging-but-still-productive Justin Houston go to Indianapolis for a modest deal. In all, Ford and Houston signed for seven years, $110 million, including $51.8 million in guaranteed money, with their new teams. That’s two ultra-productive players for, essentially, the price of Clark.


Now, you might be thinking that the Chiefs defense was awful last year and the biggest culprit in all of their losses, and you’d be correct. But that had little to do with Houston and Ford, who combined for 125 QB pressures. No other teammates combined for more. Clark managed an impressive 64 on his own, which is 16 more than Houston tallied but 13 fewer than Ford’s total. Pro Football Focus graded Ford as the best pass rusher in 2018. Houston ranked fifth. Clark ranked outside the top-20.


(This is all without taking into account Clark’s troubling history with domestic violence, or the time he tweeted to a female reporter that she wouldn’t last long in the business and would end up cleaning his fish tank.)
So, essentially, Kansas City gave up a first-round pick and about $12 million in guaranteed money for a player who isn’t any better than either of the TWO players he’s being asked to replace on his own. The Chiefs’ pass rush, which was the only above average facet of the defense, is somehow worse off than it was before the offseason began.


Kansas City’s defensive problems stemmed from an ineffective secondary that could not hold in coverage, and it’s going to take more than an effective rush to change that. Advanced stats suggest that in the relationship between pass rush and coverage, the latter plays a bigger role.
Via The Ringer:

Another thing PFF has found that relates to the draft is that highly graded coverage players are just as important, and perhaps more so, than highly graded pass rushers. “It’s something that, at first, super offended my sensibilities,” Eager says. “It’s a product of how we watch the game. The broadcast angle doesn’t show the coverage guys. Team success is correlated with how well coverage is. Pass rush and coverage are correlated, but the direction arrow points more towards coverage helping pass rush more than the other way around.” He points out that the smartest team in the league, the New England Patriots, has spent big on two cornerbacks this decade, Stephon Gilmore and Darrelle Revis, and not on pass rushers.

If Kansas City wanted to improve its defense, the front office should have allocated those resources — all that cap space and that first-round pick — on the secondary. That would have been the most effective way to maximize this window while Mahomes is on his rookie deal.
What’s more, Mahomes is already a top-tier quarterback. He’s not in that “Let’s hurry up and build around this rookie while he’s still cheap” class. Kansas City did not need to be in a rush to maximize its Super Bowl window, because Mahomes’ play would have done that on its own.
There are two viable paths to winning in the NFL today: Having an elite-level quarterback or having a solid one making below market money. The Chiefs had both! There was no need to make a win-now move that could possibly limit the front office’s ability to build around Mahomes in the future. It could’ve done so naturally, as Mahomes continued to grow as a quarterback.


Instead, the Chiefs gave up astonishing value and cap space to acquire a player who will only marginally improve the team’s defense. And they gave up the opportunity to add a cheap star on Thursday night for the right to do it.
Grades

Chiefs: D-

Kansas City needed pass rush and they got it, which is the only thing keeping this deal from being a total failure. Frank Clark is a young, dominant pass rush who should continue to get better. But with a first-round pick in a draft loaded with pass rushers, the Chiefs could have found a similarly productive player without handing out an eight-figure contract. Or, they could have just re-signed Houston or Ford, saved money and kept their pick.
Seahawks: A

It’s going to be tough moving on from a talented player like Clark, but these are the kind of moves smart teams make. As good as Clark is, he’s not worth over $100 million — no pass rusher is. Especially with cheap pass rushers hitting the market every offseason and a draft class full of intriguing edge prospects. Seattle won a Super Bowl with undervalued pass rushers like Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril and Chris Clemons. Pete Carroll knows he can build a dominant defense without breaking the bank for a defensive end.

Not sure how to embed, but attached is a comparison of relevant pass rushers using PFF stats. Clark stacks up quite well.

That USA Today guy also wrote this about Mahomes before the '17 draft:

Mahomes’ arm will get him drafted in the first two rounds. Some coach will think they can tame him, but this kind of quarterback has never enjoyed long-term success in the NFL. Russell Wilson is top-10 quarterback who can play off-script consistently, but his mechanics are nearly perfect. That will never be the case for Mahomes.

Veach still has time to improve the secondary.

For some reason fans and writers think having cap space and draft picks is great but as soon as you use them they always give you bad grades.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">See you soon my good brotha! ������ <a href="https://t.co/uAkzNpbFpC">https://t.co/uAkzNpbFpC</a></p>&mdash; Frank Clark (@TheRealFrankC_) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealFrankC_/status/1120832516716486658?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 23, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is just ****ing stupid.

Houston would have counted like 22M on the cap had we kept him, so you can't really make this argument because we would have never been able to have Houston on a modest deal, plus he's aging, declining in productivity, and oh yeah almost forgot, Ford did't have a position in our new scheme.

Articles like this just make casual readers of sports information dumber.

Frank Clarks twitter picture is Chappelle as Rick James...I like him more already.


I need someone to explain this to me.....had the Chiefs traded 29 and next years second to move up for Ferrell or Sweat and gotten a 3rd round swap out of the deal...everyone would suck their dick about what a good move it is...

But making that same move for a proven player makes it bad?

It's like having a bunch of money in the bank account and a shit house is better than fixing your house.

Precisely...

The Colts have all that cap space and what to show for it? A bunch of ****ing JAGs littered throughout their roster. If they play in January again, I’ll have my money on KC blowing them out again at this point.

Yep. Pretty much. I don't get it. I thought a trade for Clark just made too much sense for the Chiefs. We act like pick 29 is some pot of gold until we hate who we select with it.

If he misses on any picks he will basically Green Bay their team...

Also this is a fine watch on our new player.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24179374

If you’re a casual football fan and you look at what the Chiefs have done in isolation, we look like muppets. (USA Today column? Seriously? Probably the most vanilla thing out there. I didn’t even know it was still in existence until this morning.)

After all, we had the best pass rush in the league last year, jettisoned both of our elite edge rushers, then had to trade draft picks to get an elite edge rusher back and fork out 100mm+.

But if you understand...
1. Houston’s cap hit was prohibitive and he refused restructuring
2. Ford wasn’t in the team’s long-term plans given that he’s one dimensional
3. We have an entirely new defensive staff who are switching up the scheme and bringing in players who fit the mold

...then it seems totally reasonable. I’ll ignore the idiots who don’t understand the concept of deadweight loss and who forgot that we had the worst defense in football last year.

I think journalists also just look at the numbers our defense gave up, and don't realize how bad we were against the run... for years really.

Sure, we gave up lots of pass yards too, but one big reason for that is Mahomes and the large leads and shootouts he was able to lead us into.

You know, we may have given up a tad too much but I really don't care.

It's about ****ing time we attack and go all in.

We have about 3 years before we really have to rely on the draft to develop talent and maintain cost control. KC has a great chance at winning multiple Super Bowls over the next few seasons and no I'm not over exaggerating.

It's our ****ing time. We've waited long enough

Now we dominate.

Media slamming us for one reason, Clarks past. Peters, Hill and Hunt turned out to be bad press. Clark hasn't yet but already Teicher is acting like a moron about it.

Only time will tell but I was thinking they would not take a chance and go down this road again. Apparently they didn't feel this was a problem.

The only way we gave up too much is when you consider the salary implications, imo.

However, the Chiefs pay lots of people that are far more in the know to help them handle their cap. If they think the team can afford it, then I will defer to them. We did shed lots of bad contracts this offseason as well.

This is a young, very, very good football player who fills an immediate need. How is this not a bad deal?

Little early for our time talk. Have you looked at the NE schedule. It's so pathetic and easy we will not get the 1 seed unless a miracle happens.

I agree with you

There will come a time when we won't be able to afford a trio of All-Pro caliber defensive talent like we do now with Clark, Jones and Honey Badger.

The time to spend and be aggressive is now.

This guys an idiot.

I don't care.

Our d is improved and we still have a coach and qb capable of hanging 40+ on NE.

I don't hate the trade. We over paid a bit but it sounds like we were competing against a couple of other teams.

What I hate is we spent two #2 draft picks the previous two years on brokedick reaches (KPass and Speaks) trying to fill this position.

Veach needs to start hitting on these high picks or he won't be keeping the GM seat warm for long.

Go Chiefs!

Veach is addressing the "mindset" problem on the defense. The defense won't be "soft" next year.

Cap implications are the only thing that have me even somewhat worried.

In terms of pure draft pick compensation, the Chiefs basically just traded up from 2019 to pick up Frank Clark with their 2020 2nd. And they even got to improve their 3rd round pick in the process. From that perspective, I think it’s just fine.

Just hope the cap plan is one that includes Jones and Hill.

Damn, meant to thumb up your post but accidently thumb it down

This is one of the stupidest things that's ever been put into print.

I hate reading these national publications writing about the Chiefs when the author has obviously not watched much of the Chiefs at all

Anybody that says the Chiefs could’ve just kept Houston or re-signed Ford is a ****ing moron that’s opinion can’t be taken seriously.

You want to complain about the compensation? I disagree that it was THAT bad though I admittedly wasn’t thrilled when it broke. The truth is that 1st is a lot more like a 2nd considering that’s the level of talent that will be available, and a likely late 2nd in 2020 has the value of a late 3rd.

So we basically got Clark and a trade up in the 3rd for an early 2 and late 3. If that’s rape, what did the Giants do with OBJ (a trade everybody loved for the Browns)?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Career Averages<br><br>Frank Clark<br>72.6 Overall<br>72.7 Pass Rush<br>66.4 Run D<br>7.8 Pass Rush Productivity<br><br>Dee Ford<br>63.8 Overall<br>65.4 Pass Rush<br>56.5 Run D<br>7.0 Pass Rush Productivity <a href="https://t.co/mDJdhTgcMN">https://t.co/mDJdhTgcMN</a></p>&mdash; PFF KC Chiefs (@PFF_Chiefs) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_Chiefs/status/1120760222287585280?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 23, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If this trade hadn’t happened, our plan probably would have been something like this:

Trade up from 29 to 15-20ish range. Surrender 2nd round pick (possibly this year). No 3rd round swap like they got from Seattle.

Then they’d likely have taken someone like Ferrell, Murphy, etc.... guys we like but we have zero idea if they’ll actually be any good.

So it really just comes down to how much you value having a proven commodity for a higher salary compared to a completely unproven player for a cheaper salary. Because I don’t think the draft pick compensation would have been all that different.

If they had stayed at 29, they’d be rolling the dice big time as it relates to getting a big time contribution in 2019 from a player.

Everyone has been taught that draft picks and cap space are more valuable than players, hence the reaction.

Great move by Veach. Rookies usually suck but in time can develop. Frank Clark is the best fit for DE in this scheme that was available.
Veach isn't done yet. Hard to imagine him staying put on Friday and making the picks.

Look at a guy like Tak McKinnley—he’s probably the most realistic level of talent you might get at DE picking late in the first round. And he’s decent, but he hasn’t been a true difference maker yet in his first two seasons.

Do not want something like that.

Ppl who fetishize late first rnd picks are idiots. Ppl who worry about spending billionaire’s money, also idiots.

Outside of the character concerns, this is a win for the chiefs.

This trade will look better tomorrow when Ferrell and all these other good edge rushers fly off the board in the top half of the first rd.

And will look even better if someone trades up in the first to get one of them...

Like was said before in this thread, doing what the Chiefs are doing, you see that they want it.

The worst thing to be is the Colts, you have a solid team, a bunch of money and all you are doing is standing there with your dick in your hand.

Yea cause they'll give up more than we did......if you don't like the trade it really has nothing to do with anything other than the money. Or just wanting to draft a guy instead.

Still not on Chiefs.com...why does it take them so long?

A bit of an oversimplification. It's not whether anyone wants Clark and a first round pick. It's that we could have had a first and second round pick + $20m to spend elsewhere (since we seem intent on spending aggressively, which I love). People keep saying our first round pick needs to be a home run. It doesn't. Quality depth is huge especially with how much money we will have sunk into superstars. I think the question most people are asking is, why didn't we instead make a serious run at a guy like Landon Collins where we could have saved the pick? Why does it seem like the Chiefs constantly miss free agents and instead overpay in trades?

I've made peace with the trade because we have a badass mofo now on defense. But a few years from now when we have holes all over the team and no money to spend, that 1 or 2 average players will have come in handy.

Why are some of you talking like we’re not going to have any draft picks for the next two years?

We still have 3 picks in the first 3 rounds for the next two drafts.

I don’t like adding another guy with domestic violence history. That part sucks. The football side is gold, IMO.

His level of offense doesn’t rise to that of Hill, but it still bothers me.

Has anyone mentioned that Frank and Mack have similar numbers over the past 3 years?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fie...sacks-pressure

Also, the Chiefs are now toeing the line between whether we're going to be a balanced team or an offense powerhouse. We're putting a LOT of faith in Spags to turn this defense around. Because with a trade like this and all the money we've spent on D this offseason, our defense better not be average. It better be really, really good. If Spags turns out to be just an average DC, I'd rather give him a lot of decent players instead of huge investments in a few superstars. This offseason it looks like we'll spend, what, over $65-70M on defense?

Frank Clark is undoubtedly one of the best young dends in the game...Collins is not that. Also the Chiefs are about a million times more likely to find a starting safety in this draft than they were an end.

Yep. I was surprised to see how close they were.

Ah so you are into the Jag approach, you should ask Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees how they feel about that.

Because considering we made a home run trade last year and we're preparing for a future where we have TONS of money loaded into superstars, 2 picks is a pretty big deal. We've lost 4 first - third round picks in 2 years. That's a lot.

You could have signed a slightly inferior player in FA (Flowers) and kept the first and 2020 second while saving money.

You could think it's incredibly foolish of the Chiefs to invest significant draft capital and cap space into Frank Clark considering his prior off the field issues.

I don't know. It depends on how good Spags really is. If he turns out to be just average, which his history calls into question... I'd rather surround Mahomes with great offense weapons and use the draft to make our D just good enough.

They went from paying EB, JH, and DF 54 mil this year to paying TM, FC and Okafor 43 mil. So they shaved 20% off the defensive expenses in 3 players and one could argue they stayed the same or got better at their supposedly 3 best players. And a lot younger.

Trey Flowers....you know he's not nearly as good and makes almost as much money right?

Is 29 really worth that much?

I think our options were:

1) Trade down.
2) Trade up (more expensive than Clark trade.)
3) Trade for Clark.

I don't think trading down would have gotten us a pass rusher or d lineman as good as Clark.

I think trading up would definitely cost us more than trading for Clark and we don't know if we get a better player or not.

The only reason I don't love this trade is his off the field issues.

We need to play in the super bowl.

If you told me that KC could win a super bowl but it would cost us every single pick in the draft the following year I'd take that deal in a heartbeat...

LMAO

This has crossed my mind many times. Flowers + 1st round pick or Clark.

I would love to hear what Veach has to say about it.

Flowers players the position Okafor is taking...Flowers skillset isn't suited to do what they got Clark to do.

If Trey Flowers was even close to as good as Clark, the Pats wouldn’t have been ok with letting him walk for a late 3rd round comp pick.

Someone much smarter than me broke down just how. bad Sutton was against the Pats. An avg DC will be a HUGE improvement.

Who are you counting on to rush the passer off the edge then? They could have put all their eggs into a rookie they traded up for maybe, sure. But if he flops, your defense is a lot weaker as a whole than it is with Clark.

There is no way they end up not giving up a 2nd round pick by Thursday night IMO either way. They would have traded up and used one just like they did for Clark.

So the dilemma is Clark with a $21M salary and moving up 8 spots in the 3rd round, or a rookie for a few million but they aren’t proven to be a good player yet (and even if they are, they won’t be great in year one probably).

Flowers at 5/90 or Clark at 5/105 is a matter of $3 million/year. That’s no small matter.

I was a proponent of Flowers, for sure. Would prefer him at the price and without the history of DV.

I am just pissed he didnt go for bobby wagner too

I think John Middlekauff made a great point yesterday (former NFL scout)—he asked where would Clark go if they set him free in the draft tomorrow night? He insisted top 5 for certain and probably top 3.

For what is basically going to be pick 29 this year and 60-64 next year (+ an 8 spot jump in rd. 3). The salary is really the only thing to even remotely question.

Would you trade a top 20 pick (which is what our total package was) + flowers for Clark?

So then ask yourself this:
Would you have traded your 2019 1st and 2020 2nd for Nick Bosa provided you needed to pay him 20mm/year? That's really more of the apples-to-apples question being asked.

But Nick Bosa isn’t a proven commodity.

Being unproven and given his durability concerns, probably not.

The Chiefs are paying the price because they know what they’re getting, and they know it makes them much better in 2019. No question about it IMO.

Also, like it or not this defense needs some ****in assholes with passion and desire, we've been soft forever.

I'm pretty sure that was his point. ;)

You want to pay Berry, Houston and Ford 50+ mil or Clark, Okafor and Mathieu 40 mil??? Fast and easy answer for me.

We all hated how our defense was coached, what players saw playing time, and how poorly the players on the field played.

We wanted Sutton gone, and many, like myself, wanted the 4-3 scheme. We were mad as hell because we didn't improve our defense before the trade deadline. And our worst fears were realized when the defense let Brady and the Patriots just hop, skip, and jump into the end zone during overtime, wasting one of the best offensive seasons in NFL history.

Chiefs fans demanded, pleaded, and prayed for defensive changes. AND WE GOT THEM. No one really knows how all the new defensive players will be able to perform individually or as a group, but Veach, Reid, and cHunt, have genuinely tried to improve the defense, and that's exactly what we asked for. So, I am going to reserve all judgment until I have seen the new DC, and all of the new defensive personnel, perform during regular season games.

And I didn't see every post in this thread, so if this has been discussed already, too bad.

Through their first 4 years, these are the regular season stats for Khalil Mack and Frank Clark per Football Reference:

Mack: 64 games - 1 INT - 9 Forced Fumbles - 40.5 Sacks - 84 QB Hits

Clark: 62 games - 1 INT - 8 Forced Fumbles - 35 Sacks - 72 QB Hits

This trade, along with all the other new defensive players, and the new Not-Bob-Sutton Defensive Coordinator, have already given me hope that another MVP type year from Mahomes and the offense won't be wasted again.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

The problem last year wasn’t that we were paying guys big money.

The problem is that they were broken down players, especially Berry. Honey Badger and Clark are young players who have not missed games in quite awhile, if ever.

And my point was it’s not apples to apples.

I have faith that Frank Clark will not lineup offsides in the 4th qtr of the AFC Championship game. Guys with two first names are notorious for getting that right.

I cannot say that about a certain departed edge rusher who can go **** himself

Flowers wouldn't have played in KC for the same contract he took with the Lions. He wanted to play with Patricia. I'm an idiot, but if I had to guess I would say Flowers would have come here for 5/100. Prior to this trade in three years the Chiefs wouldn't have anybody on contract getting paid more than $13m a year (if they cut Watkins by then). Mahomes, Clark, and Jones will ultimately be paid well over $13m a year, but the Chiefs will have plenty of money, and this is pointless to discuss prior to the new CBA, which will most likely raise the CAP a shit ton after streaming services and cable get into a bidding war.

I didn't know how to feel about this trade yesterday and was too busy to look at it until last night, but it is a good deal for the Chiefs. The FO felt there were only 15 first round players in this draft. I can't say that I disagree. I am sure it has been said in here many times by now, but the picks traded away for Clark were equal to trading up to 24 in this years draft. There is no player falling to the Chiefs at 24 that is anywhere near as good as Clark. He is 25 years old, a badass on the field, but does come with a shitty past baggage. If he stays out of trouble this will be looked back on as a great trade. Chiefs D is soft as **** the past 20 years. I'm excited to see the attitude our new safety and DE bring to the D unit.

I am so tired of people turning this into "the chiefs are dumb they got rid of pass rushers to turn around and trade for a pass rusher"

God people are stupid as ****.

That was his point too.

They weren't going to get anybody like Frank Clark in this draft, even by spending a similar amount of capital.

They got rid of damaged goods and brought in a flagship product.

:clap: Very well said sir!

I completely agree but he's convinced himself that we could have put the money into someone else out there in free agency while still getting a pass rushing end in the draft. But, it doesn't appear there was anyone else left out there the team is that interested in at this time. We may still find some post June 1st cuts to further refine the roster as well.