<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Four Cardinals appear in Baseball America&#39;s Top 100 Prospects list:<br><br>▪️OF Jordan Walker (4)<br>▪️RHP Tink Hence (47)<br>▪️SS Masyn Winn (48) <br>▪️LHP Matthew Liberatore (79) <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> are one of seven teams with three players in the Top 50. <a href="https://t.co/Mcpt0nwGmF">https://t.co/Mcpt0nwGmF</a> <a href="https://t.co/vHI0v1BefJ">pic.twitter.com/vHI0v1BefJ</a></p>&mdash; Cardinals Player Development (@CardsPlayerDev) <a href="https://twitter.com/CardsPlayerDev/status/1615800027087245314?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 18, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Is Liberatore ever going to amount to anything, or will he wash out like the rest of Mo's faberge eggs?

Seems fairly unlikely at this point.

Curve is too loopy and the fastball doesn't have enough movement or life for him to have the iffy command of it that he does.

He's still awfully young but I've seen zero growth from him the last couple years apart from one decent relief outing where he seemed to be attacking and getting better depth on his breaker.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/wp-conte...rdinals-23.png


The last time the Cardinals ranked worse than 20th in baseball in wRC+ was in 1978. From Whiteyball to Jockettynomics to Moneyball to Mozeliakanalia, the Cards almost always manage to score runs.

The Cards are so solid that they’re almost uninteresting.

My think the Cards are a 89-93 win team and not quite in the tier of the very best in baseball, but ZiPS disagrees, putting St. Louis in the same range as the Padres, Astros, Braves, Dodgers, and Mets. My personal feeling is that the Cards really need a true ace at the top of the rotation, but perhaps that’s just my inclination to play devil’s advocate.



https://www.fangraphs.com/

[QUOTE=Prison Bitch;16747108]https://blogs.fangraphs.com/wp-conte...rdinals-23.png


The last time the Cardinals ranked worse than 20th in baseball in wRC+ was in 1978. From Whiteyball to Jockettynomics to Moneyball to Mozeliakanalia, the Cards almost always manage to score runs.

The Cards are so solid that they’re almost uninteresting.

My think the Cards are a 89-93 win team and not quite in the tier of the very best in baseball, but ZiPS disagrees, putting St. Louis in the same range as the Padres, Astros, Braves, Dodgers, and Mets. My personal feeling is that the Cards really need a true ace at the top of the rotation, but perhaps that’s just my inclination to play devil’s advocate.

_________________________________________

Depends on Jack Flaherty. He pitches the way he can and its all good. Contract year as well.

That's about right.

The Cardinals have no glaring flaws to speak of apart from not having a single 1 or 2 'playoff' starter.

They're a team built to make the post-season rather than win when they get there. Given that DeWitt has flat stated that their goal is to win 88 games and 'play meaningful baseball in September' - none of this is even a little surprising.

They're a solid, ultimately boring, baseball team that doesn't have the force multipliers they need to make noise in October.

Interestingly, 'replacement level' is somewhere between 48 and 52 wins.

And that graph has a total of about 48 wins, suggesting anywhere from 96-100 wins.

You figure a .500 team is about gets about 10 wins from its SPs, 5 from the 'pen (so 15 from the staff) and 18 from the position player for 81 total. This says the Cardinals will have an average bullpen, a SP staff about 20% better than average and a position player group about 2/3 better than average.

I mean...maybe? Not an awful breakdown.

{shrug}

Remember, Symborski warns agaisnt adding depth chart estimates to arrive at a win total.

But directionally, yes, this is implying prob a 93-96 win team.

I do think that sort of disclaimer is essentially saying "yeah, I'm building a fudge factor into my numbers..."

Because really, it should be a pretty close approximation. But since he's not sure how some of the IPs will break out or PAs, he boosts everyones numbers by a tick.

I wonder how accurate you'd get if you set the 'top' team at 105 wins, the bottom team at 105 losses, rank ordered the respective teams by projected WAR and then staggered wins/losses proportionately among them.

More math than I feel like doing, but it would effectively remove his fudge factor from the equation.

sounds right. Exactly what Dewitt wants. Compete to play playoff baseball. Not win. Well maybe if they get hot at the right time like 2011. Lots of but, if’s and maybe’s in that plan.

That's Mozeliak's honey hole friendo.

Ken Rosenthal says the Cardinals and Marlins are talking about a trade. Cards want Pablo Lopez and Miami wants one of our outfielders.

Who is a match for Lopez?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Trade news: All-Star second baseman Luis Arraez is going to the Miami Marlins and right-hander Pablo Lopez is headed to the Minnesota Twins, sources tell ESPN. Deal is done. Players are being informed right now. More are involved.</p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1616523095656857600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Typical Mo, we tried really hard. Gave everything we got but came in second place.

I'm not sure there was ever a different outcome possible.

Yes, right now I see back end of the rotation at best. I hope I'm wrong, but he does need to develop at least one consistent put away pitch. He seems like, at least at the major league level he pitches too fine...and then walks more guys than you want from someone that doesn't have overpowering stuff.

His WHIP is 1.73 (albeit in a relatively small sample size). For his stuff he needs to be down around 1.2 to be viable as starter you can rely on.

The curve evidently looks much better in the minors.

Tells me it could be nerves causing him to guide the ball instead of really ripping it. It would explain the fastball not having any life to speak of as well.

Best shot at having the #2 upside we hoped for.

You all are as bad as a bunch of damn women. Cry because we didn't get X player because we would not give up what was needed. Cry because we gave up too much to get X player. It is ridiculous sometimes.

Well yeah. This is the Cardinals thread.

It is in all the other threads on this site and those some people posts in here. :LOL:

The Royals fans have a reason to bitch though. Zack Greinke said he'd like to return so they lowballed him, gave that money to a very mediocre Jordan Lyles, then the rest of it to the cooked Aroldis Chapman. Anyone with a pulse would bitch about that.

The Cardinals though? It's an embarrassment of riches for that team. But they're gonna do stuff like force Yuan Jepez to platoon and limit Nolan Gorman's opportunities so as not to expose him, and these are scared moves from a scared organization. We both know the age-old saying: "scared money don't win no money", or alternatively, "scared money don't win none".

I wasn't referring to the Royals. I was pointing out that it is the posters on the board as a general group that act that way.

Chip Caray is taking Drunk Dan's spot. That's a definite upgrade.

I’ll miss Dan but seems like a solid pickup.

Yeah - Chip's solid.

Surprised he left Atlanta after taking his dad's chair and spending 20 years there, but hey - Bill's gotta spend all that ballpark village money on something because it damn sure wasn't the roster.

In the Harry Caray documentary on MLB Network, young Chip was playing Little League baseball in the St. Louis area. Harry was present at Chip's Little League games one day and didn't realize Chip was his grandson. Someone had to inform him, "Harry, this is your grandson." Chip was hurt.

Yeah, I never got the impression that ol' Harry was much of a family man...

You mean banging Auggie Busch's wife doesn't count as being a family man lol

I guess if you can't Brockmire he'll do.

**** Dan
sec

Rolen elected to the HOF

Great. He earned it.
:clap:

A single stream of tears slowly trickles down DJs cheek:



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cardinals Fan Thanks Dexter Fowler After His Retirement<a href="https://t.co/n2ex4dRAhn">https://t.co/n2ex4dRAhn</a></p>&mdash; Zulqarnain Pervaiz (@maliknain000) <a href="https://twitter.com/maliknain000/status/1620873928880308226?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 1, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's a nice upgrade

Welll if they wont spend money, at least we can watch a HOF'r hone his craft.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here&#39;s about a minute of one of the greatest to ever pick it at the hot corner honing his craft.<br><br>Nolan Arenado infield practice is appointment viewing at <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> camp. <a href="https://t.co/DQrQI9YvG4">pic.twitter.com/DQrQI9YvG4</a></p>&mdash; Corey Miller (@corey_miller5) <a href="https://twitter.com/corey_miller5/status/1625319389053476864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 14, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Good gosh that man can play 3b.

Good thing the Cardinals extended the man that brought him to town.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/sltcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#sltcards</a> and president of baseball operations John Mozeliak in agreement on contract extension to lead club through 2025, per source. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cardinals?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cardinals</a> news here <a href="https://twitter.com/stltoday?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@stltoday</a>: <a href="https://t.co/g1lI3lujC3">https://t.co/g1lI3lujC3</a></p>&mdash; Derrick Goold (@dgoold) <a href="https://twitter.com/dgoold/status/1625270108712054784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 13, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

:banghead:

{shrug}

Was there ever any doubt?

DeWitt doesn't care about winning championships. Hasn't in over a decade. Mozeliak gives him what he wants which is robust profits and above average baseball at a relatively low cost.

I can't find the energy to care at this point.

The Chiefs won a Super Bowl. The Cardinals don't care. The world keeps turning.

Expected but still….:sulk:

Oh good, more striving for that mystical 88 win mark and super elusive,strong September push.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tim McCarver, the All-Star catcher and Hall of Fame broadcaster who won two World Series titles with the St. Louis Cardinals and had a long run as the one of the country&#39;s most recognized, incisive and talkative television commentators, has died at 81. <a href="https://t.co/MgBON1AFRK">https://t.co/MgBON1AFRK</a></p>&mdash; KMOX St. Louis News (@kmoxnews) <a href="https://twitter.com/kmoxnews/status/1626314244021952514?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 16, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

One of the first memories I have in my life is Bob Gibson pitching to Tim Mccarver. To be honest, never cared much for his announcing. He was always my teams catcher when I became a fan.

I asked every adult that was near me as a kid, how does Tim catch that slider, look at that move. I was amazed. Spent many an hour trying to throw that Gibson slider. Needless to say, I never mastered the slider like Gibson.

I don’t understand the Brewers pissing off their #1 starter over what? Peanuts and cracker jacks?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;[They] basically put me in the forefront of the reason why we didn&#39;t make the postseason last year.&quot;<br><br>-Corbin Burnes on what the Brewers front office said to him in his arbitration hearing<br><br>Burnes last year:<br>• 33 starts (1st in MLB)<br>• 243 Ks (1st in NL)<br>• 2.94 ERA<br>• All-Star <a href="https://t.co/KiO0h6SwB4">pic.twitter.com/KiO0h6SwB4</a></p>&mdash; Danny Vietti (@DannyVietti) <a href="https://twitter.com/DannyVietti/status/1626320117842993152?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 16, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

For 750k? What a bunch of dipshits.

Seems like a terrible idea, now there's no mending that relationship. Maybe they would take an often injured malcontent with #1 upside in trade.

So is this guy the real deal? Is he ready this year?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">430 FOOT BOMB FROM JORDAN WALKER. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> <a href="https://t.co/4z1hCIAW3R">pic.twitter.com/4z1hCIAW3R</a></p>&mdash; STL Sports Central (@stlsportscntrl) <a href="https://twitter.com/stlsportscntrl/status/1629909752837808133?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 26, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;He&#39;s coming for somebody&#39;s spot. So somebody&#39;s going to have to move out of the way.&quot;<br><br>Nobody in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> camp knows Jordan Walker better than fellow top prospect Masyn Winn.<br><br>And Winn shared some thoughts with me about Walker&#39;s path to the show...<br><br>&quot;He&#39;s ready for it.&quot; <a href="https://t.co/PyEiALAnqr">pic.twitter.com/PyEiALAnqr</a></p>&mdash; Corey Miller (@corey_miller5) <a href="https://twitter.com/corey_miller5/status/1629919941045411840?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 26, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If you guys are interested in seeing the Cardinals BP pitch batting practice to the Mets, it's on ESPN.

Raw power is dead ass last on the list of concerns for Walker. When he hits 'em, they stay hit.

But he has some holes in his swing and his game power comes and goes. Granted, AA doesn't have the juiced ball that AAA has, but 536 PAs against AA pitching and he only had 19 bombs. For someone that his the ball as squarely as he does and typically takes a good approach to the plate, that's odd. 900 total PAs now in the low minors and only 33 homers?

Tells me there are some mechanical changes that should be made there if you want him to be more than another Jason Heyward sort of guy who's game power just doesn't match his size and raw power.

I also think they need to have him out in RF shagging flies unless they have no intention of extending Goldschmidt, in which case they should have him at 1st.

I don't think he's ready for the show yet, but he's a highlight reel player, for sure.

If they try to force him up this year I think he's going to flame out.

So he's a flash player that will end up being underwhelming.

Coulda just said "he's a STL Cardinals position prospect" and that would say all you needed.

I wouldn't say that.

I'd say he's the type of prospect that Oscar Taveras was sold as being. He already has a quicker, more compact swing than OT did and while OT was a guy who was FAR less athletic than his body type appeared, Walker is the opposite. Walker is a massive dude who doesn't look like much of an athlete but he's actually pretty impressive in the field and on the bases.

He'll grow out of that, IMO, but he can still play corner OF for now and do it quite well.

But think about Jose Martinez for a second. Everything about that guy suggested he should be able to hit for power and he just...didn't. It was something in his swing and they never got it out of him.

If Walker's game power doesn't develop, I'd say Jose Martinez is his floor. But he's so damn young that there's no reason to believe he can't be much better than that.

I'd say the difference in development is something between a 25 HR guy with a .360 OBP and .780 OPS or a 35-40 HR guy w/ a .390 OBP and .900 OPS.

He's just too damn young right now to know exactly where he'll end up, but I think he'll be a pretty good ballplayer either way. Then again, I was a massive Dylan Carlson stan when he was still in the low minors and there appears to be a non-zero chance that he kinda sucks.

So....he's not gonna be Mike Trout is what you're saying.

There are a whole lot of "Dylan Carlson" stories in the Cardinals history. Guys who show so much promise and then just end up being below average. I'm sure Walker will be the exception though. I think he can be really good if they give him the time he needs.

I can't see them bringing him north with the club. He's never played in AAA and with O'Neill, Carlson and Nootbaar they're gonna wanna get those guys ABs. You also need to find swings for Gorman, Yepez, Burleson and Donovan (though it appears Brendan is probably ticketed to start at 2b). Heck, there's even Moises Gomez who was the organizational player of the year last season. I'd imagine he'll get a shot and likely fail, but I don't think they want another Adolis Garcia debacle on their hands where they just bury an older prospect because he has flaws and in so doing ignore his strengths.

If anyone had a chance to force his way onto the club, I'd say it's probably Winn, who could move Edman back over to 2b and give you the most dynamic MI in baseball. But I don't think he's ready either.

It's all masturbating anyway - this team can't pitch.

Eh - that's everyone, really.

Every organization has more failures than successes on their prospect resumes. That's why there's a school of thought that says trade them just as you're ready to call them up. For the vast majority of them, their value will never be higher.

But you've gotta have massive stones and a hell of a payroll to back you up if you're wrong.

Our FO doesn't have either stones or payroll.

Nope, they'll just keep churning out more Noootes and Piscotty's.


Yipiiiiieeeee

Jack Flaherty is throwing free and easy, bro. Steven Matz is in the best shape of his life.

Who needs financial backing or balls - we have HOPE brotha...

I'm not completely convinced yet that Noot won't be really good.

I truly have no idea. There are some REALLY good indicators in his approach.

Cards are up 12-5?

The inning I watched some no name scrub was getting hit pretty hard. But it's ST, so who cares?

Guy was 90th percentile in pretty much every offensive category. His baseball savant page is disgusting. I'd certainly take him over the golden boy Carlson.

Unfortunately Flaherty's season will be derailed by hurt feelings before he throws 40 innings.

The one thing I'll note with Noot was that he wasn't consistently at that level. And really few are. But he was very hot/cold. When he was on for about a month there, you couldn't get him out. But he had some iffy ABs on either side of that hot streak.

It is just enough to keep me from getting too gung ho over him just yet. But he really showed some promise.

Walker seems to be holding his own so far. I haven't seen anything that makes me think he won't play well in Memphis.

Four for four today, with 2 homers and 3 rbis.

Why cant he jump AAA and make the opening day roster?

Don’t push him.
sec

Yadi is getting the love as a manager in the WBC from all corners of baseball. Is he the successor here or does he go elsewhere?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yadier Molina has done an exceptional job at Managing team PR, and I’m ready to make him Marmol’s successor. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> <br><br>PS Pujols the Hitting Coach</p>&mdash; Cardinals Live (@Cardinals_Live) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals_Live/status/1636185326665302016?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 16, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Mets losing their closer in the WBC is such a Mets thing.

Maybe they want to trade for Winn? Or we need to convert him to a pitcher?
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This throw by <a href="https://twitter.com/MasynWinn?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@MasynWinn</a> to end the top of the 6th was registered at 99.9 MPH! 👀 <a href="https://t.co/WTg5OZWoA5">pic.twitter.com/WTg5OZWoA5</a></p>&mdash; St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals/status/1631379471595978752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 2, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

How are we rushing Walker and Winn? They obviously are better than some of our current players.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Masyn Winn throws hard. <a href="https://t.co/4ZuOp6rCD4">pic.twitter.com/4ZuOp6rCD4</a></p>&mdash; Chris Brown (@ChrisBrown0914) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisBrown0914/status/1637167559605735426?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 18, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I want to see Winn and Edman playing together up the middle so badly. Man that would be fun.

Especially with the new shift rules.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nolan Arenado getting plunked right after Paul Goldschmidt&#39;s two-run single has to be quite an uneven viewing experience for Cardinals fans <a href="https://t.co/QAnS8kKNw1">pic.twitter.com/QAnS8kKNw1</a></p>&mdash; Casey Drottar (@CDrottar19) <a href="https://twitter.com/CDrottar19/status/1637626338252148736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nolan Arenado is leaving the game after a hit by pitch on the hands. <br><br>It *looks* precautionary. USA is out to a 9-2 lead. Doubtful Mark DeRosa would take any chances anyway. Arenado nodding in the dugout and had pretty positive body language heading down the clubhouse tunnel.</p>&mdash; Katie Woo (@katiejwoo) <a href="https://twitter.com/katiejwoo/status/1637626444774797313?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lots of Cardinals contributing to this 9 run game tonight.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">X-rays on USA third baseman Nolan Arenado&#39;s right hand are negative.</p>&mdash; Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) <a href="https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/1637631467143479296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 20, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>