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Bwana 01-16-2010 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Towne (Post 6449696)
I don't know of any antenna that works better than the others. The bigger the better though. I think mine was 12 feet long.
Heh, that does sound like the "Lightning Rod 5000." :D

tsyou606 01-16-2010 10:07 AM
check out directv.com i was looking at it yesterday they have some sort of signal booster for 50 dollars

Stewie 01-16-2010 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwana (Post 6449703)
Ouch, well I'm not moving to the rez, so I'll have live with it. I will just thave to figure out the best choice, given that information.

FOX had an edge before the digital switch, but vanished after that.
Go to the Channel Master site and send them an email. Tell them your situation and see what they say. They have good techs and support. Send them your signal strength info, too.

Bwana 01-16-2010 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsyou606 (Post 6449710)
check out directv.com i was looking at it yesterday they have some sort of signal booster for 50 dollars
I was on the horn with them last Sunday raising all kinds of hell ,when I had to miss the Playoff game on FOX. That's a solid Idea, I just don't know if that would be the ticket in this case?

Bwana 01-16-2010 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie (Post 6449714)
Go to the Channel Master site and send them an email. Tell them your situation and see what they say. They have good techs and support. Send them your signal strength info, too.
I'm on it, thank you!

Stewie 01-16-2010 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwana (Post 6449723)
I'm on it, thank you!
One more thing. If Channel Master recommends a deep fringe antenna, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Those antennas are for unobstructed signals that are 50+ miles away. In your case you're only 20 miles from the FOX tower. That says to me you have hills (or some other obstruction) between your home and the tower. A deep fringe antenna won't solve that problem.

Bwana 01-16-2010 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie (Post 6449726)
One more thing. If Channel Master recommends a deep fringe antenna, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Those antennas are for unobstructed signals that are 50+ miles away. In your case you're only 20 miles from the FOX tower. That says to me you have hills (or some other obstruction) between your home and the tower. A deep fringe antenna won't solve that problem.
That may indeed be the case. I was also told at one point in time, that I could point an antenna in their direction (FOX) and get the signal, but then I would not be able to get the other locals. It was almost an either or, because of the direction. I have no idea, he could have been full of poo. I have all but given up on FOX, but I get ticked off when I'm watching one of the other locals, I'm half way through a show, it fades out and the searching for signal message pops up. I need to figure something out before the remote goes through the front of the TV at a high rate of speed. :cuss:

Jack 01-16-2010 10:40 AM
Since I've done antenna design in my career, I'll chime in here.

Skip is pretty close to the solution.

First, antennas; you need to look at the "gain" factor. A lot of spiffy looking antennas sell looks and not performance. Gains on the order of 10 dB on the lower channels (2-13) is average and 20-25 db on the UHF channels are probably all you will find. The higher gain factor means the antennas beamwidth is narrow and that's where a antenna rotator may be needed. Now, the "F" factor. All TV stations now have switched to digital. The old designs for analog antennas are limited by the same physics, however digital modulation is much narrower in beamwidth thus exacerbating the directional issue. Bottom line, look at the transmitter locations and if they are more than 20° difference invest into a rotor.

Amplifiers are often useless. If you live on the fringe, they just amplify noise. Having said that, digital is impervious to noise so there may be some trade off but I would be pessimistic but don't let this prevent you from trying one. Look for the BER (Bit Error Rate) factor and select one with the highest number.

Splitters will specify losses in dB usually with factors of 3, 7.5. That number aggregates with the number of splitters you use so if you start splitting splitters it would be best to add amplification.

Also, look at the coaxial cable. New cable is normally stamped "RG6" with a phrase "Swept to 1 GHz " some number like that. That is very important in terms of digital reception.

Hope this helps. One reason I dropped DTV is that locals were not included. Plus I get a great package from Comcast for my TV/Phone/INet.

bevischief 01-16-2010 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwana (Post 6449703)
Ouch, well I'm not moving to the rez, so I'll have live with it. I will just thave to figure out the best choice, given that information.

FOX had an edge before the digital switch, but vanished after that.
the analog signals were a lot stronger, digital require as much power
Posted via Mobile Device

Jack 01-16-2010 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwana (Post 6449688)
The results:

<TABLE class=text cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5><TBODY><TR align=left bgColor=#e6e6e6><TH>DTV</TH><TH>Antenna
Type</TH><TH>Call Sign</TH><TH>Channel</TH><TH>Network</TH><TH>City, State</TH><TH>Live
Date</TH><TH>Compass
Heading</TH><TH>Miles
From</TH><TH>RF
Channel</TH></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#ffcc33 align=middle>yellow
uhf</TD><TD class=text>KBGS-DT</TD><TD class=text>16.1</TD><TD class=text>IND</TD><TD class=text>BILLINGS, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>86°</TD><TD class=text>5.4</TD><TD class=text>16</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#e6e6e6><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#ffcc33 align=middle>yellow
vhf</TD><TD class=text>KULR-DT</TD><TD class=text>8.1</TD><TD class=text>NBC</TD><TD class=text>BILLINGS, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>92°</TD><TD class=text>5.7</TD><TD class=text>11</TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#ffcc33 align=middle>yellow
vhf</TD><TD class=text>KTVQ-DT</TD><TD class=text>2.1</TD><TD class=text>CBS</TD><TD class=text>BILLINGS, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>88°</TD><TD class=text>5.4</TD><TD class=text>10</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#e6e6e6><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#cc0000 align=middle>red
uhf</TD><TD class=text>K20HB-D</TD><TD class=text>20.1</TD><TD class=text>PBS</TD><TD class=text>BOZEMAN, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>88°</TD><TD class=text>5.4</TD><TD class=text>20</TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#cc0000 align=middle>red
uhf</TD><TD class=text>KSVI-DT</TD><TD class=text>6.1</TD><TD class=text>ABC</TD><TD class=text>BILLINGS, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>68°</TD><TD class=text>11.1</TD><TD class=text>18</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#e6e6e6><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#333399 align=middle>blue
uhf</TD><TD class=text>K25BP-D</TD><TD class=text>25.1</TD><TD class=text>ABC</TD><TD class=text>BILLINGS, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>87°</TD><TD class=text>5.4</TD><TD class=text>25</TD></TR><TR bgColor=white><TD class=text align=middle>*</TD><TD bgColor=#9966ff align=middle>violet
uhf</TD><TD class=text>KHMT-DT</TD><TD class=text>4.1</TD><TD class=text>FOX</TD><TD class=text>HARDIN, MT</TD><TD class=text></TD><TD class=text>86°</TD><TD class=text>20.9</TD><TD class=text>22</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
With the exception of the ABC station at 68° no need for a rotor.

Bwana 01-16-2010 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack (Post 6449761)
Since I've done antenna design in my career, I'll chime in here.

Skip is pretty close to the solution.

First, antennas; you need to look at the "gain" factor. A lot of spiffy looking antennas sell looks and not performance. Gains on the order of 10 dB on the lower channels (2-13) is average and 20-25 db on the UHF channels are probably all you will find. The higher gain factor means the antennas beamwidth is narrow and that's where a antenna rotator may be needed. Now, the "F" factor. All TV stations now have switched to digital. The old designs for analog antennas are limited by the same physics, however digital modulation is much narrower in beamwidth thus exacerbating the directional issue. Bottom line, look at the transmitter locations and if they are more than 20° difference invest into a rotor.

Amplifiers are often useless. If you live on the fringe, they just amplify noise. Having said that, digital is impervious to noise so there may be some trade off but I would be pessimistic but don't let this prevent you from trying one. Look for the BER (Bit Error Rate) factor and select one with the highest number.

Splitters will specify losses in dB usually with factors of 3, 7.5. That number aggregates with the number of splitters you use so if you start splitting splitters it would be best to add amplification.

Also, look at the coaxial cable. New cable is normally stamped "RG6" with a phrase "Swept to 1 GHz " some number like that. That is very important in terms of digital reception.

Hope this helps. One reason I dropped DTV is that locals were not included. Plus I get a great package from Comcast for my TV/Phone/INet.
I can tell this isn't your first rodeo either, Thanks!

Bwana 01-16-2010 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack (Post 6449772)
With the exception of the ABC station at 68° no need for a rotor.
So is there a specific antenna you would go with in this case?

Bwana 01-16-2010 10:52 AM
On a side note, this place never ceases to amaze me with the wealth of information that it can provide on any given topic. I would guess that if I'm having this problem, there are 20 other people that are following the thread as well, looking for the same answers. I really appreciate the information!

Jack 01-16-2010 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bevischief (Post 6449765)
the analog signals were a lot stronger, digital require as much power
Posted via Mobile Device
Same power level of analog versus digital results in 12dB coverage loss, and at most of the frequencies used, dramatically increasing the transmitted power does not increase coverage. It is the nature of the beast at UHF frequencies.

Stewie 01-16-2010 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwana (Post 6449780)
So is there a specific antenna you would go with in this case?
I wouldn't invest in a "multi-directional" antenna. They promise more than they deliver.


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