I don't think that applies, because those teams have had success with multiple quarterbacks whereas the Broncos haven't. Denver is only 4-10 all time in the playoffs without him. 14-7 with.

For the life of me I cannot understand why you'd say that given the stark contrast of their records in both the regular and post season with him vs without him.

In the AFL years, the Broncos outright struggled. I don't believe they ever had a winning season.

Interesting, back then the AFL West was composed of exactly the same 4 teams as the AFC West is today. It was always the Chiefs and Raiders at the top, with the Chargers usually in third occasionally popping some offensive fireworks, then Denver bringing up the rear. Yes, there was an AFL draft, but that didn't matter so much. It was all about finding the talent and then having owners that could afford to out-bid the NFL for that talent. Denver was one of those AFL teams just struggling to survive. They had one good playmaker - his name was Floyd Little - and that was about it.

I don't believe media hype and I look at the facts. See below.

This media myth rose around him because he was hyped coming out of school and he could throw the ball hard. But if you apply science and logic, it's clear that he made no difference in their success. They were a strong team before he arrived and got no better. See below.

I provided the facts on the records with and without him, I guess I don't see what facts you're providing that dispute them. Your "5 non strike years before and after" is misleading since (a) it ignores the 2-7 strike record they did have before they got him and (b) Elway didn't play 5 years for them, he played 15 and (c) you arbitrarily start with their 1977 team.

The Broncos have only had 1, like the Chiefs. That's just sheer luck, or bad drafting, or whatever.

The only difference is that the Cowboys and Steelers have had TWO (or more).

You take Bradshaw and Ben out of the Steelers lineup and they're not Super Bowl champions. Hell, I don't think they even have a winning record.

It just seems to me if the Chiefs had been bold, knowing what we do now in hindsight, and made that trade instead of Denver it would've made all the difference. They had the 4th overall we were at 7th so it wasn't like Denver had assets we didn't. They got possibly the best QB ever for Chris Hinton, Ron Solt, and backup QB Mark Hermann. He of the lifetime 16-36 TD-INT ratio. Just an absurd trade.

Who has success without consistent good QB play?

Exactly.

The Broncos came of age in the mid-1970's with the Orange Crush defense. Under coach Red Miller, they put together a pretty good record and went to the Super Bowl in 1977. This was before Elway came along.

You're assuming he would have wanted to play in KC. After all, that's why the trade happened in the 1st place.

Very true, stipulated.

If you're just counting SBs, then sure - they're not there without Elway.

If you're counting regular seasons where they didn't suck and advanced, whether they won in the playoffs are not, they've been pretty good.

A small # of teams have had sustained success over several eras.

2 superbowls vs 1 superbowl.

That's about enough.

Hell, Plummer almost got 'em there... gave Brady his first playoff lost and then they fell to Big Ben. :banghead: