GoChiefs said:
""Yeah, that's actually very true. I was going to say something about it but I'd rather not defend JWs.

They try to paint their organization as a bunch of saints but it's not true at all. There have been plenty of problems, especially in recent years. Child molestation, stealing congregation money, etc.

But they don't kill anyone! ""

Actually i'd put them in second behind the muslims. Look in to the "no Blood" policy No organ transplants of the past and the suicides from kids they've kicked out and add them up it's brutal.
From an ex-jw you should know this but maybe not realize it.

History comes pretty easy to me. I enjoy it and I'm good at remembering alot of things.

I was going to say something else about it, but I've forgotten what it was. (How ironic)

So did you learn about how phony the Catholic Church was? Popes were corrupt bastards, corrupting and destroying the whole Western Europe.

I'm fully aware of the no-blood thing. I went to meetings for 19 years!

I guess the justification was that they were all afraid of getting AIDs or something from stored blood (that and the stupid verse in the bible), but seriously, is there that much risk? It has just now dawned on me how stupid the whole no-blood thing is. They even carry little "no-blood" cards in their wallets, you know.

They've had some rocky times, sure.

Maybe we'll see some of those beautiful old churches they built way back when with all that money they had.

Yeah I figured you knew about it...... have you thought of the number of lives lost and just think in two or three years blood will be fine. Btw those disfellowshiped for blood will still be DF'd

The guy talked to our school today. About abstinence and lust and stuff. And his wife talked with him, and the whole time, I was just thinking about how hot she was.

If you get some free time you may want to check out George Wiegel's biography of the current pope.

Witness to Hope

Cool. That was the book the kid in school was reading. Thanks alot.

What do you mean blood will be fine? Did they change their policy about blood transfusions?

I hear it's an awesome class...would take it myself, but my schedule is already filled.

BTW, you should really enjoy the trip to Europe...I have a couple teachers who are always going over there and tell us how things work. Two things to remember if they haven't told you already: don't bother giving a high-percent tip to the waitors in Germany--they're already well-payed, so you just have to round your check to the nearest Euro out of courtesy...second thing: NEVER mention either World War...especially if it's a joke.

You know not killing your fellow man carries a heck of a lot of impressive weight to me. Especially when their compared to all other worldwide religions who haven't come close to practicing what their "bible" teaches. I loathe the hypocrisy of most religions. Not that I've read many headlines from what you state about some of the JW's, but I do know that even in the Bible they had a problem from time to time like with Judas, ect. I will tell you this, if I had to hire my employee's based on religion and honesty, I would definetly hirer a JW first. A free perk is that they dont complain about working Holidays either.:)

I'd agree with you there.

eh hem...?

Huh?

I think he is pointing out that you are referring to something in past tense that is still around

God, I'm stupid. Well, yeah, I can see his point, but the current Pope is actually an incredible person and I have full respect for him. The church isn't nearly as corrupt anymore as it no longer controls the society/nation/whatever.

Well..Jenson,

I've never really liked John Paul II's theology...but then again I went to a Jesuit HS so I am not really big on "I'm the Pope so what i say goes and STFU" school of theological interpretation.

The fact is, I think JP 2 is a very poor theologian but his historical role in bringing down communism and re establishing religion across the iron curtain was more important than his shortcomings in theology.

You, Slayer, would definitely love the hell out of a European History class. The class trip is just to France though. No jokes, I'll remember. :)

France?!??! ROFL ROFL Please, feel free to make as many jokes over there as possible...we should treat France with as little respect as they show towards us...aw hell, even less than that. (and I can say all that because I'm part French)

Nah, those Frenchmen in the little villages where we'll stay most often are completely nice people, even to evil Americans.

Very true. I think that there has been tremendous reform in the Church since the dark ages. The Church today is not perfect(no organized religion will ever be). Do you realize that the Catholic Church is the world's largest religion with over 1 Billion members? That's almost one out of every 6-7 people.

That's sort of an odd quote coming from a time when the Church had a number of pedophilia problems. The pedophilia itself wasn't a sign of corruption, but, over a 20 year period, the repeated coverups by Bishops that put pedophilies in positions to harm more children indicates a systemic problem.

I was quite disappointed that the Church in this situation acted worse than many corporate actors: it took multimillion dollar lawsuits before they changed their behavior, so that it left one wondering if the Church valued its image over the well being of its children.

Wow, he's the leader of a church, yet his shortcomings in theology are just overlooked? Amazing. If a Christian religion is not at least attempting to based upon the Bible it claims to be built upon, then you would not have a Bible based religion......you would have a opinionated politically motivated compromising based religion.
Whalaa...

Hi Greg
How's everything going?
I believe that you statement that the Catholic church is part correct. It is the largest "Christian" religion, but it is not the worlds largests religion. I believe it is Taoism that holds that mark.

Pretty good Craig....How's Mariconi Stereo these days?

Yeah, I was worried after I posted that...when you combine Catholics with all of the other Christian religions, I believe it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 billion people or 33 percent of the planet that are Christians. Interesting stuff.

One bad apple does not make for a bad bunch,,

I am Catholic and I don't care what any of you think about it,,as a matter of fact you can all kiss my Catholic azz.:harumph:

There's more than one.

Naturally. I didn't say that there was no corruption/problems with the CC anymore, just that it wasn't nearly as bad as few hundred years ago. Pedophilia is just a prime example of how hypocrytical religious poeple can be. Religion, especially catholisism, makes me sick. It has ever since I started forming my own opinions.

One good apple doesnt either.
I was Catholic and I dont care what any of you think about it, as a matter of fact you can do your own dang homework.

:Peace:

It's easy for him to talk about abstinence, because after you have been married for a while, it just comes naturally.

His wife said he waited 26 years for her.

Did he wait until he was 26 years old or did he date her for 26 years?

He waited until he was 26.

The orchard's infested with worms and the owner refuses to spray for bugs...

Where will you be in France? You going to any other countries?

And yeah the people outside of Paris and Lyon seemed nice enough. Just the ones in big cities that tend to be dicks. But thats not any diferent than somewhere like NYC...just that you cant understand them.

I don't have the power to give you the neg rep you deserve...

Just France. Two days in Paris, then to Versailles, Verdun, other places, up to Normandy. 12 days

French people have gone through a lot in the past century. I don't automatically hate any group of people, except the Swiss. Now, maybe their government is a little corrupt or cold or both or whatever, but I haven't met a single French person and therefore have no reason to hate them.

The most about French people I know is that I admire François Truffaut's films.

And, 100% of it was their own doing.

Or not doing I guess would be more accurate.

I can see that...

I've met a good many. And two of them hated France so much they moved to Quebec...

Not sure what France did or did not do to deserve almost 340,000 casualties in a single battle in 1916. Sidney B. Fay outlines 6 main causes for WWI, and France just being France wasn't one of them.

Sounds like a cool trip. Other than Paris the only one of those places i have been is to Normandy. I only took a day trip up there but it was fascinating.

Do you know any French? If you do they will tend to be much nicer to you even if you just know a little. Much of their abraisveness tends to be from us not giving a shit about their culture and being loud drunks. I didnt know any when i went over there and didnt make much of an attempt to beyond how to order stuff in bars.

It's in there under "they were asking for it."

No, but my teacher does. He's been there a few times. Knows his way around.

One thing I forgot, is that I and nearly all my friends, thought their food sucked hard. And we were staying in Lyon which is supposed to have their best stuff. Maybe the stuff at the ultra expensive resturants is better but i though they served some awful quality meats.

Good thing is there are plenty of good Italian grub spots all over the place.

I'm a little worried I might get sick from the food. Also, I'm a little worried the plane will crash. I'm scared of terrorists. And cats. And sunshine.

I've never gotten over that one...

Which one? :D

I've been in a plane when I was 8. Never thought about crashing then. Now, that's all I can think of. I'm gonna need to be drugged I think, so they can haul me on there.

The food is fine so long as you dont eat at shady places. Even then a bunch of us ate at some iffy Kebab shops when we were wasted and no one got sick.

And the plane cant crash if you have enough to drink. Makes the flight go by faster too. I cant remember what the rules are for overseas flights (18 i think?) but you will be on a school trip so you are screwed anyways. Still once you are over there you can go to town.

Hah, I hate flying. I've been on 10 hour flying trips like 6 times (back and forth). The take-off is the coolest though, make sure you look out the window.

I'm always nervous before boarding and when the plane starts to speed up on the runway, but then it's cool. Take some dramamine just in case there will be turbulance, even if you don't get motion sick, it helps psychologically knowing that you took it.

Prescription drugs and 4 of those $5 beers usually do it for me...

The Pope killed thousands of Jews?

Or are you stating since he is Catholic, he is guilty by association?

Either way, you set yourself up to be a liar or guilty of killing thousands of Indians and Blacks in this nation. Or do you only assign responsibility to others?

The Pope could have forbid it. Spain = the most powerful nation on the Earth. Dumb ass king and qeen + inquisition = Spain never again becomes important.

I think he did know. I think he just doesn't care about the childish and hateful quips of a couple of people on this thread.

What a pity that their self-worth is dependent upon the deprecation of a person who has done all he can all his life for others.

Catholicism is wrong? I am sure you mean, in your opinion it is wrong.

Only a scant 100 years ago, we were killing blacks, indians, and experimenting with syphillis on our own soldiers. I guess that makes you a killer and a slaver, right?

I think that would truly be the most informative and interesting vacation of a lifetime.

We snuck off during our trip for 17 days. Everytime there was a scheduled trip to Notre Dame or The Louvre, we became "ill". I spent a lot of time in Alsasce and Lorraine in the countryside. Very nice people and we had a blast with them.

John Paul II was in power? Or again, are you ascribing past ills to current leaders while turning a blind eye to your own country's faults for the exact same thing?

I never said every catholic is corrupt.

No, you stated Catholicism "is wrong" and stated that the Church is a morale despotic ruin due to issues from centuries ago.

Did you read my posts? I praised John Paul II. He's trully an incredible individual. I bagged on the organized religion, its hypocracy and corruption.

Priests raping little boys - centuries ago? People raised as Catholics from childhood, devoted fully to the church and still lying, gossiping, being envious is centuries ago?

Americans killing women and children in war. People raised as Americans from childhood, devoted to our nation, lying gossiping, bombing federal buildings, our government killing innocent women and children in Camp Koresh in Texas is not centuries ago either.

Do you hold your citizenship to the same standards that you hold others religions?

Yeah, pretty much. Except religion teaches against the very things its leaders and followers do. While in your example's case, wars are sometimes neccessary for the nation to survive and there's no law in the constitution against them.

So you believe your nation to be a filth hole run by murderers on both party aisles and should be ashamed of your heritage?

Heh, I edited.

LOL - Ahh, the Religion is supposed to be good and Government isn't.

Qualification is usually done for those who don't want themselves judged as harshly as they judge others.

So what war were we involved in that required we give black men syphillis at Tuskegee?

What war were we reviewing when we killed David Koresh's followers?

Yes.

It's a cowardly qualification, but I understand why it is done. Many people just don't like to hold themselves to the same standards they hold others.

EL-OH-EL. It's not a qualification. Religion is based on morality. Government isn't. The two can't be compared.

Yes, they can - you just chose not to do so because you would rather judge than be judged or at least have the cojones to be judged in the same light.

You state a religion is morally corrupt due to actions 100s of years ago and then have the audacity to state that your goverment killing innocent people less than a decade ago is understandable. There is nothing but sad qualifications to your statement

Wait, wait, when did I say what the government did was right? What can I do to stop it? I chose not to follow catholic religion because it would be very hypocritical of me. I follow the citizenship code, I don't steal, kill or invade others property, etc. I vocally oppose the government's actions (you know I was against the war in Iraq, f.e.). I vote and try to convince people, but that's as much as I can do. But as a catholic, I'd break a lot of rules, like everybody else does and be a hypocrite. I chose not to become catholic or follow any other religion, even though I was brought up to believe and God and was baptized as a child.

Religion is a good way to scare/teach kids or make money, depends who you are. As the kids grow up, the same concepts tought in the Bible/Tora/Koran can be learned, understood and followed using other methods.

Yeah, He's ok. But he can't follow his blocks like Priest. :)

Historical fact:The American government killed many innocent humans starting two centuries ago, over greed and power. It has had corruption to some degree thru-out its history.
Historical fact:The Catholic church killed countless innocent humans over many centuries and has had corruption thru-out its history.
Historical fact: Both are corrupt.

I can appreciate what your try to say here, but you shouldnt put it at such a personal level. My issues are with the religions teachings and its leaders, not the lay people. I believe that is the issue with all who post here. What I dont understand is that the Catholic churches historical and current atrocities are justified by many its followers by comparing it something else corrupt. Why? Government and Religion are completely two different things, well there supposed to be anyway. Government is a set up of agreed laws to control and guide a society and then enforces it. Religion is supposed to educate you on how to guide your personal life according to the Bible, no matter what goverment you live in. God will not judge a person based on the goverment your a citizen of, but he will judge a person based on the religion your a member of. The Jews during Jesus time are a glaring example. All the Christian religions claim the Bible is the basis of there belief, but its interesting that none teach the same thing. There can only be one truth and it is the responsibilty of the individual to disern what is truth. I feel I have been able to disern that the Catholic Church, even though it has done great things with all its money and power, has been corrupt thru out its history and is blood guilty to the max. Most importantly though, the teachings of the church, I believe, are contrary to the bible teachings. So much so that my conscience couldnt agree anymore to be involved with the church and I have personally chosen to follow the Bible(teachings) and not the Church(teachings). I guess what I'm trying to present to you with all these words, is that I have no personal beef with you what-so-ever, and if you choose to be associated with the Catholic church it doesnt bother me at all. But I would respect your stance more if you wouldnt be so defensive and just agree (as you have stated yourself) that the Catholic Church has been corrupt thru out its history......and then just leave it at that. I will give you an "E" for effort though, because I finally got wore out trying to defend something that just cant be defended.

:Peace:

I was raised catholic but never practiced it after i got out the the house, niether did any of my other sibling's, to my mom and dads dismay.

Anyway a few week ago my dad said "I hope none my money i've been giving to the church isn't going to all these law suits the priests have been haveing to pay out for child molesting."

I just laughed to myself, i thought, well dad, it sure is, it sure is.

Ya its kind of tough on the folks. I had a very similar thought to myself when my father said just last week that "I give my help the sunami victims money to the church, then we know there is no doubt that every penny will go to that cause". Didnt have the heart to say well actually dad....

.....that a sad story too. Oh well, if the good book is true, then those who take the money and use it for other purposes will get theres, i would think.

Don't forget the current war in Iraq. No weapons of mass destruction...the premise or "excuse" for the war in the first place. Saddam was a real big threat to us...yeah right...that's why we took over and dismantled the whole country's millitary in less than 3 weeks. What huge collosal mistake/mess that place is now. I don't really see democracy working there for long time if ever. We gave the entire world a real good reason to hate us about 2 years ago IMO.

I can't believe all the anti-Catholic vitriol on the internet. Every forum I come to it eventually rears it's ugly head. I mean, people REVEL in their hatred of the Church, and most of those people don't really understand what the Church really believes and teaches. They simply gobble up whatever some Fundy tells them about the evils of the Church. The fact that the Church has done herself some bad damage in the past of course does not help it. But what I find interesting is that we (Yup, evil Catholic checking in) have had bad bishops, priests and ayuh, even Popes, yet the Church herself survives. Why? Because the Church as an institution is right. It's some of the people who run it who are fallible.

I am sick and tired of hearing about the priest and alter boy scandal. People love to make fun of it, but a simple google search will illustrate that the problem is actually MORE pervasive in Protestant churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a total mess, I can't even begin to go there. Does that make it right? Of COURSE not. But to sit there and gleefully crap all over the Catholic church for it's problems while totally ignoring the problems of other Christian denominations is intelectually dishonest at best. Sadly, it is also typical.

What people don't understand is that there is a ferverant NEED for the anti-God crowd in the world to take out the Catholic Church. Why? Because if you can take down the Catholics, the rest of Christianity will crumble as well. This is why Catholicism is a huge target. Satan needs to kill it. Sadly, Christ himself stated that the gates of Hell itself will not prevail against His Church, and try as he might for 2000 years, Satan still cannot prevail.

Quit crapping on the Church. Her history is recognized and acknowleged by her and her members. The wrongs of the past will never go away, but neither will the righteousness of the Church itself. Again, hate it all you want, but if the church falls, back up and run...