I put more stock in guys making the All Pro Team. Not everybody who goes to the Pro Bowl makes the All Pro Team.

There's a song in here somewhere, isn't there? :hmmm:

I'm just amazed that KK stopped banging on his intern girlfriend long enough to bang on Carl.....

and every few years you get an All-Pro who was a Pro Bowl snub

Sharpe, Nalen, TD, Rod Smith (UDFA), Griese, Portis and if you want to count him too, Elam.

Is it also not a fact that during the 1990's KC had one of the best defenses in the NFL?

As everyone here was ranting about King Carl and KC's inability to draft few players worth a crap (and rightfully so in many respects), has anyone mentioned the role the coaches and scouting department (namely Lynn Stiles) play in the failure?

I'm not a big fan of Carl, but the Chiefs inability to draft worth a crap is an organization-wide phenomenon, not just the fault of one guy. Everyone at One Arrowhead Drive is responsible.

MM
~~:sulk:

Bashing Carl Peterson is like taking candy from a baby. A trained monkey could find THOUSANDS of things to criticise him for.

Bashing Carl isn't Keitzman's strong suit, it's just so incredibly easy that it seems like it. Keitzman's strong suit is blacking out in casinos and bitching about his 8-iron approach shots.

Is there anything worse than listening to him & Jack Harry talk about their golf games? :shake:

Number of Pro Bowlers drafted '89-'04 in afc west

Oakland-8

Chargers-7

Denver-11

Chiefs-10

That proves it. Carl is doing a hell of a job.

hey, Carl, what's up?

I'd be interested in seeing that list from '98 or '99 to the present. As far as I recall, we've drafted just two pro bowlers since '98, and both of those are special teamers (Stills and Hall).

Oh I'm sorry I thought we were basing an argument on number of pro bowlers drafted.

The 90's are over.

tell me, Carl, what's it like to clean Lamar's bedpans?

Cleaning bedpans?

I would think the taste of Lamar's penis would be more accurate.

MM
~~:eek:

What's it like to hate the team you're a "fan" of?

Hate the team? No.

Hate the GM and the entire scouting deparment? Yes.

Of course, I'm a season ticket holder, so according to Carl I am a true fan.

:rolleyes:

Sorry if facts confuse you, but the FACT is Carl and Co. have drafted as many players that helped KC get to the Super Bowl as I have.

MM
~~:shake:

Congratulations. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've heard all week. Which is really saying something. You faced some stiff competition.

I don't count, though, I'm not a true fan.

Can I see the ring you get for that?

Number of Super Bowl appearances by AFC West teams 89-04:

Denver - 3
San Diego - 1
Oakland - 1
Chiefs - ZERO

Oh I don't really like Carl. I think he's a stuffed shirt who's full of himself, I don't think he's evil or trying to ruin the team. I really wish we would have gone to and won a superbowl in the last 15 years, I really do. I hope for the best every year, I don't expect things to always work, but I feel rotten knowing that people like Taco John really don't have to argue with people here anymore. No one makes arguments for the team anymore.

I was thinking the exact same thing the other day, only instead of 'supporting the Chiefs,' it was '8-track tapes.'

So true. Trent Green should have been in the pro-bowl last year and wasn't...basically because of the crappy defense. I figure there are a lot of teams with a lot of talent that goes unrecognized in the pro-bowl because of a similar problem.

But Carl does suck in the draft.

Well, the Chiefs didnt 'draft' Green, so I dont think it counts for this exercise.

I would disagree with this statement.

Ding! Ding!

Rep.

Thus ends the Carl can't draft mantra. See, if Carl can't draft at all, like many of you contend, then why do we have an average/above average number of pro-bowlers produced by the draft? This research would be even more complete if done for the entire league, which would admittedly be a huge pain in the arse.

The Chiefs are AVERAGE at drafting. Not great. Not awful. AVERAGE. Do some fucking research, like this guy did! Jeebus H. Christo!

Seriously, if any of you fuckheads would actually bother doing two minutes worth of research before typing in your daily "I hate Carl" diary entry, it would be a miracle.

ps -- Just to let you know, I'm not Carl Peterson, I don't have sexual relations with Carl Peterson, I'm not overly fond of Carl Peterson, I'm often disappointed in the moves Carl Peterson makes and/or the things Carl Peterson says.

Should it count for San Diego?

Packfan?? :hmmm:

Some of us fuckheads have done research. A lot of research, in fact. And the team has been where we are since 1998 - that's barely above .500 total with two winning seasons and one playoff appearance - specifically because we have been not average, not even slightly below average, but...horrible...drafting in that time.

Name for me the last successful draft the Chiefs had, where several players contributed to the team in a meaningful way for a number of years.

The answer: 1996.

As for the 'Pro Bowl argument', perhaps you should provide some more information there. For instance, is Donnie Edwards on that list? Because while we did draft him and he was once a pro bowl alternate, it wasn't as a Chief. And our last two drafted pro bowlers? Gary Stills in '99 and Dante Hall in '00. Both special teamers. We haven't drafted a pro bowl position player since Tony Gonzalez in '97. The last pro bowl defender drafted? Jerome Woods in '96.

So, in short, it's been 8 and 9 years since we drafted pro bowlers on offense and defense, respectively, and 5 years since we drafted our last pro bowl player of any kind.

Is that acceptable?

Well put.

You fuckhead.
:)

Hey, I'm the first to jump in and argue with the bashers when it's warranted and they're wrong.

But they're NOT wrong this time.

And you didn't do your case any favors by stooping to that kind of idiocy.

I call BS!

I am tired of people on here doing ZERO research before posting.

Then you have guys like keg in kc who post research that is filled with strange partial facts. For example, we are discussing Carl's ability to draft. But to attack Carl's ability to draft, keg in kc only goes back to 1998? Why that year? Possibly out of laziness. Possibly out of an incomplete set of information available to him. But most likely because it skews the data to his advantage.

Messier posted complete facts. We are discussing Carl's success as a drafter (seemingly defined in the first post by pro-bowl appearances), and Messier did research and posted Carl's success compared to other teams in the division.

The result? The Chiefs are AVERAGE at the draft. Carl isn't the worst drafter in NFL history (as I heard someone say on the radio the other day). Carl is AVERAGE.

My frustration is furthered by KK's rant, which also grossly skewed the "facts" by only including partial information on the Chiefs' draft record (which, again, is AVERAGE), fueled by his personal dislike for CP. (You might recall CP's bizarre and unprofessional attempt to get KK fired from channel 4.)(only part of a string of CP's unprofessional and inexcusable dealings with the media).

Too often I see the same garbage here that I hear from KK. We should all be critical listeners and attempt to discern for ourselves the truth to anything that CP, KK, or their counterparts say. The Internet gives us the tools to do this. Few of us do.

That's somewhat better...you at least avoided calling everyone ****heads.

And if you were to read, you'd know why keg went back to 1998. That's when Marty left.

Contrary to Parker's supposition that it has something to do with Marty, I go back to 1998 because that's about the time that I moved here and began to follow the Chiefs closely. I have all the information from prior drafts available, as well, but I choose to refrain from discussing anything I didn't experience personally. I think that's the right way to go about things.

Beyond that, I happen to think it's a more than substantial slice of time to discuss. How much further do we need to go back? How long are the Chiefs, as an organization, and Carl Peterson, in specific, going to be granted a pass for their performance in the early nineties? How long are we supposed to accept mediocrity? Because that's exactly what we've had for 7 years. And then I would go on to argue that recent history is much more important than more distant results. Should we all be happy with losing indefinitely because we won a Superbowl 35 years ago? I say ‘no’; I fall into the "what have you done for me lately" school.

And the answer to that question – what have you done for me lately? - is this:

Between 1998 and 2002 (I will not discuss 2003 and 2004 because I won’t judge a class or individual player until it’s had three years to prove itself) we drafted 35 players. 28 of those players are no longer on the team. Of the 7 remaining draftees, 3 are starters (Fujita, Sims and Warfield) and 4 are backups and special teamers (Bartee, Hall, Harts and Stills).

That's a 20% success rate, which is precisely why we’ve had to attempt to construct this team through free agency (look at our starting offense if you question that fact): we have, to this point, failed to fill the roster with our own draft picks. When I say that, I am not, specifically, attacking Carl's ability to draft. I don't have to. I’m simply providing facts which speak for themselves.messier did not post “complete facts”. He posted a few raw numbers without any names and didn’t list the criteria used to compile his list. So what he posted is, in essence, meaningless until he provides more information.And how are you doing anything differently? As I see it, you’ve decided that, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the Chiefs draft record, or recent draft record if you’d prefer, since I only go back to 1998, is somehow “average”. You’re not being objective, you’ve settled on your point and you’re choosing information to fit your agenda, faulty statements like messier’s vague Pro Bowl comment.

I've got to say that I think Marty had a fair amount of input on those early draft successes. He's gone on to have good drafts with other teams as well. Rufus will disagree, but I think Marty has a pretty decent eye for defensive talent.

I have not read this whole thread, and am not going to. But I think our team mirrors Tampa Bay to a degree. Tampa Bay gave up a boat load of picks to get Gruden, and is now paying the price due to not having top draft picks for a couple of years. But at least they did win the SB for their efforts.

We, on the other hand, gave up a 2nd and a 3rd for DV. And don't get me wrong, I like DV. But I think our overall talent is hurting a bit because of those draft picks.

Personally, I don't give a rat's flea infested ass how many players go to the Pro Bowl.

The only fact that matters is this:

Carl Peterson has as many Super Bowl rings as I do.

MM
~~:shake:

I bet you could find one on ebay.

Why would I disagree?

I think it's pretty well known that I'm a diehard Marty basher, and even I wouldn't disagree with you regarding Marty's eye for defensive talent.

Marty has other issues that have him on his way to winning more games without an appearence in a League Championship (not to be confused with Conference Championship) than any other coach in NFL history.

Well I am sitting here holding the following cards Wilson, Fox, Mitchell, Battle, Sims, Freeman, Easy, Downing and Minnis. Now that I have played my hand do you really feel our talent is hurting because we lost those two draft picks?

I would have a really hard time saying yes to that question.

Exactly.

Carl sucks so much that he creates his own drafts....

Why should he not get the blame. He is responsible for hiring those in the war room, and he is the one who makes the final decision. i.e. the LJ pick and DV was clearly upset over it.