Shouldn't we "legalize" the current system then? :shrug:

I'm in an interesting position on the topic. I've actually seen the progression of illegal labor in an industry. When I first got into roofing, there were literally no Mexicans doing it around Des Moines. I remember the first company that started hiring them, and the way we scoffed at it as sacrificing quality for price. When I started my business, I had no hispanic employees or subcontractors. Then one day while working, a Mexican guy climbed on the roof and asked if he could have a job. I was skeptical, but desperate for help, so I told him I'd give him a chance. He worked long hard hours, and was a fast learner in spite of pretty limited english. He also provided documentation. Soon his brother and a friend were working for me too, all earning the same wage I start anyone at. Eventually, he recognized that I paid some crews as sub contractors instead of employees, and wanted to do that. While it cuts into my profit, it also cuts my overhead, so I let him become a subcontractor. We became very close friends, and eventually he confided in me that he was illegal. He was hands down the best crew I had working for me, and a friend, so I allowed him to continue to do work for me. He's since moved back to Mexico to care for his ailing parents.

During that same span, I started losing a lot of the young American guys that were the backbone of the start of my business. They just wanted to move on to easier jobs. And I was having a hell of a time replacing them. The few times I'd find someone willing to roof, it would either be a loser job-hopper, or a subcontractor that wanted almost as much as I was charging my customers. The one place I could continually find workers was in Mexicans. I never paid them less than the Americans I employed, and required documentation of them. But they would routinely put in longer hours, and do better work. They were simply better workers.

Now when I go to high schools looking for kids to work summers, I find no one. I can still find mexican help, but most only want to subcontract, and it's hard to control who they bring to a jobsite on a given day. I know there are times when the money I'm paying out ends up in the hands of illegals. Every non-union residential roofing company in Des Moines is experiencing the same thing. Even the family owned businesses that have been around for 3+ generations. No one is going to pay more for my product if I tell them I strictly use legal workers. When it comes to saving $500 on a new roof, people don't give a shit who's doing the nailing. You can't just take the moral high ground by offering more money to only employ legals.

It's not something that happens overnight, where you decide to just start using illegal labor practices. I'd much rather be building a company of legit employees that can grow and become something. I held out for a long time in regards to being strict on my hiring practices, and lost numerous customers due to inability to come up with the labor or meet price demands. Now I mostly just roof by myself. There aren't a bunch of unemployed Americans that need or want these jobs. Jobs that can pay 30k+ per year if you put in the work.

There's a lot of guys out there just like me. They aren't getting rich exploiting illegals. They are trying to keep their business afloat with whoever they can find to work for them. If I had it my way, I'd still be paying the kids coming out of high school. Those kids don't want the job I'm offering.

your posts on this thread have been very informative and logical. thanks!

It all boils down to pride and the media pimping you are what you own.

Seems too many Americans think they should have grandpas lifetime of work success before they are thirty.

It would take a major recession before Americans could be humbled back to reality, which is be thankful for any opportunity, something the illegals already know.

I think many people realize this exact thing, and that is at the heart of the emotionalism this debate evokes.

For the record, I'm for getting the border under control first. Someone compared it to bailing the boat without fixing the hole, and I think that's an apt analogy. But to continue that analogy, you still have to bail the boat to get at the hole.

I'm also (I think) for some sort of streamlining of the legalization process. In my very preliminary research, I think we provide some 480,000 work visas. The way I understand it, most of those are essentially earmarked for relatives of people who are already here legally. We also issue some other types of visas for professionals, etc., but all told, with the others, we give out a total of 600K. I don't know if that's enough to satisfy the demand or not. On the surface, it seems not.

Getting back to the premise that many illegals are perfectly content to maintain the status quo, I think there should be some recompense for time they have spent here. I don't know what it is, I don't even have suggestions, but there should be something. There is something intrinsically wrong with being here and deriving benefits without giving back. In one of the most outrageous examples of things being out of kilter, my wife (a military spouse) does not qualify for in-state tuition where we are, but illegal immigrants do.

Finally, it strikes me as ironic that thousands of people are exercising one of the primary tenets of First Amendment rights on behalf of people who aren't even citizens.

In the end, we have a problem and we must deal with it realistically if we are to truly solve it. Out and out deportation of all illegals is not, in my mind, dealing with it realistically. But I think we have to get past the current rhetoric and emotionalism before we can find the right solution.

Very well stated, although I would replace "illegals" with "immigrants".

They don't have to be illegal to respect the value of a steady job/wage. However, paying them as legal residents is going to increase the cost of goods in the industries that used to pay them as illegals.

point taken.

I'm going to have to start calling patteeu "Amnesty Pat" in honor of his buddy "Amnesty Sam" Brownback.

ROFL

I'll wear the label proudly. I'm not for rewarding illegals by moving them to the front of the citizenship line or by granting them instant citizenship, but I think we should welcome those who are here because they want to be Americans and who are willing to work for the American dream. But we need to stop the inflow and divert it to legal channels to satisfy our demand for population growth and cheap labor.

amnesty patteeu

I know it would employ more PROFESSIONAL construction workers. Quality would go up and it wouldn't change the cost that much in that construction companies already pay 5 mexicans to do 2 americans jobs.
I haven't met a mexican construction crew yet that did as good a job as a professional construction worker in the field of framing, drywall or concrete. Any crew is fast with 8 guys getting paid $5 an hour but you suffer somewhere.

I am not buyin' into the idea that Americans won't do these jobs.

If the free-market, and I mean we need a free-market inside America first, can't get people to fill these jobs then the scarce labor pool demands higher pay, better benefits and improved working conditions for these jobs which should go to our poorest Americans first.

So the costs go up! BFD! Soooo...the illegals are getting free taxpayer services too. Don't tell me they don't. I know someone who rents to one who had a baby and Medicaid paid for it. So we pay for it somewhere. Our poor American citizens can come off welfare instead so it balances out.

Further,if costs get too high people just won't buy as it's too much to bear and then the costs come back down or that industry has to become more efficient and productive.This is how the market works...it regulates itself.

Many of these are jobs for teenagers too.

Do not reward the behavior you don't want. Just increase how many can come in legally.

Anyhow, many of these illegals do not want to be citizens, show no loyalty to America and want to reclaim former Mexican land. That's dangerous imo.

In fact amnesty was granted to the hordes that invaded Rome and it contributed to it's fall due to the corruption of these hordes and in the Senate. So our Nero-like-Senate repeats the same mistake.

What's Vincente Fox's next move? Probably to sack Phoenix and then LA.

We should just put up US Immigration Office signs on every building.

...if ever at all. But it's just not right for some to not pay taxes and also use our social services.

Why doesn't Bush put pressure on Fox to clean out his gov't of corruption, liberalize his society and economy...so that it's not so dang hard to start a business there? We pick on other nations. We should encourage Mexico to create its own job machines and wealth.

That's the point. They don't WANT to be Americans. They just want the cash. If they wanted to be Americans, they would immigrate legally and make solid attempts to assimilate to the culture.

Legal immigrants want the dream and they are willing to work just as hard as illegals. To give illegals the same level of dignity and respect as illegals is a MASSIVE slap to the face of those that came to this country within the boundaries of its laws.

IMO, you're absolutely correct. Living in Houston, I've had a lifetime to get used to the issue.

My girlfriend is a teacher whose classes have some illegals who do not speak English. Get this, she's having to teach them in Spanish. Now that is simply UNBELIEVABLE!

She should refuse to teach them.

That's what I told her but she says that she doesn't want to casue any toruble. So, I just dropped it. Around here, the way they deal with the iussue is they want folks to be billingual - only it's backwards in that more is done to make sure the American citizens can communicate with the illegals rather than the other way around.

I met a man this last weekend that has a driveway cleaning job who formerly had his own painting business. He no longer has the painting business because his competition under cut him by hiring illegals so he could charge half the price.

I teach part-time...and that is un-buc-in-believable!!!!

Dealing with illiteracy in English is hard enough!!!

Exactly. Those kids have no incentive to learn the language and the school systems here facilitate that mentality because they'll continue to teach them in Spanish. I do understand that education is most important to any child, and any child should have the chance to receive a good education. However, IMO it's not too much to ask that said illegal allian child be taught in English since he/she is getting his/her education in this country. Am I missing something here?

Ok, you asked for a serious reply...
 

This is a very complex issue that I happen to have experience with on several levels. That doesn't mean my opinions are gauranteed to be right, but at least I know what questions to ask ROFL

Examples of complexities. I could write an essay on each of these, but I'll spare you...

There is a difference between crossing the border illegally and over-staying your visa. People that don't return have been through background checks, tend to be law abiding, and in my experience, are willing to work very hard. We always think of Mexico, but a vast percentage of illegals are from Central and South America and don't want to go back to what is literally a dangerous situation. They had to escape but couldn't get an immigration visa. They settled for a tourist visa instead (BTW, if you think our gov't doesn't know this is happening, think again. The number of Tourist Visas goes up dramatically to countries in turmoil).

There is a vast underground for illegal aliens. An underground economy is never good ~ no economics professor would ever argue that. The 'honest' illegals have no choice but to take part in it. Unfortunately, it also supports the 'bad' illegal elements. Being forced into this underground economy keeps aliens from assimilating into our society (what Roosevelt was quoted on).

Our current immigration laws are a mess and contribute to the problem. Don't get me started.

When I opened a fast food restaurant in OKC, I couldn't get people to even apply for the jobs ~ at any wage. Employers on this board are all telling you the same thing, Americans just don't want certain types of jobs. Several years ago when a new mall opened in Olathe, the stores couldn't find employees. Look it up, it made the newspaper. I live in Dallas and can promise you that the majority of the restaurants, construction companies, landscapers, grocery stores, Wal-Marts, etc. would not be able to stay open if you took away the illegals tomorrow. Who's going to move accross the country to work at McDonalds?

For non-salaried jobs, undocumented workers work harder, are more dependable, and more loyal. Just my experience.

'Cracking Down' on illegals just makes the underground culture stronger. Without getting into a long explanation, look at the Drug War ~ we've really hurt the drug cartels, haven't we?

I agree with you but I would add the obvious & that is that all of this doesn't mean a thing if we can't secure our borders. That has to be our number one priority besides changing our immigration policies. Whether its a wall, fence, National Guard, 50,000 border agents - something must be done. Our congressmen/women should be ashamed at their inaction. They are a National disgrace is you asked me. They probably can't even tie their own shoes without doing a focus group first.

At least in my area, that couldn't be further from the truth. "Professional" construction workers as you call them will get hired over illegals every time. The problem is, there aren't enough quality professionals out there.

I also disagree with the notion that immigrant = sloppy work. A lot of these guys do better work than their American counterparts.

Well, "they" aren't a monolith. That's why I went to the trouble of specifying which illegals I think we should welcome. Those who are here for the paycheck but have no interest in being Americans (i.e. stomachs in the US but hearts in Mexico) are in a different category. If we need these workers then we should have a "guest worker" program of some sort so that they will be documented and so that we can prevent them from getting all the perks of full citizenship (e.g. voting, welfare, etc.). But to the extent possible, it would be better if we could satisfy our labor needs through the legal immigration of those who want to become Americans.

Legalize it so that the only requirements are fingerprinting, application for SS# and pay for an entry paperwork processing fee.

Actually, I DO lump all illegals into one category. If they are willing to break the law in order to the get into the country, why would you expect anything less once they are in? I could care less as to their motivation.

These people ALL have a legal means to get in; they are CHOOSING not to.

To be blunt and as a legal immigrant, fuck them. If I had my way, they'd be against the wall tomorrow.

Probably a good thing I can never be President of the United States. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for them. They are criminals, plain and simple.

Major props, Luzap. Thanks. :clap:

Lots of great stuff in there, and several other responses I want to get to eventually. And I might yet; even tonight....but I just wanted to thank everyone for their participation and ideas. I'll try to get to some responses later tonight, or tomorrow.

Nonsense. You just have to make it extremely unpleasant to risk. Hence, my suggestion.

We either get serious about it ot not. It's that simple.

Could an issue like this ever escalate into a Civil War?

I don't assume that people who break the speed limit laws when they drive will ignore all laws so I don't see a reason why I should assume everyone who breaks an immigration law is going to be breaking laws left and right once they get here. Especially if they aren't put into a position where they have to live on the blackmarket for fear of being deported.

There were a lot of boat people who left Vietnam during the 70's. Many of them ended up being legally allowed into the US, but they left Vietnam without VISAs or confirmed refugee status. The group that ended up in the US is, as a whole, a very productive group of immigrants. There wasn't any magical change that took place in their moral makeup when the US decided to accept them as refugees instead of leaving them to illegally immigrate to whatever shore they could wash up on.

I'm against importing Mexican language and culture. I'm against putting illegals ahead of legals. But given the enormity of the problem, I don't see why we can't put illegals who demonstrate a desire to assimilate and keep their noses clean ahead of foreigners who may some day decide to immigrate legally. And as I said earlier, the most important thing is to secure the border (possibly in conjunction with expanded legal immigration and efforts to decrease the draw for illegals) to dry up the stream of new illegals.

No. By definition, a civil war is a war fought between citizens of the same country.

good point...but could it escalate into hostlie actions? or armed confrontations?

No. Not large scale, anyway.

I don't equate breaking the speed limit to breaking immigration laws, even if our government does. It should be a felony, or not a crime at all.

Last time I checked, we haven't invaded Mexico in some time. And, those Vietnamese decided and made a concerted effort to assimilate. I know; my brother is married to one. And, I don't hear a "For Vietnamese, press three" option when I call my bank.


I'm not against importing any culture. Hell, our 'culture' is by definition multi-cultural. But, I draw the line at being illegal. Again, they had a choice: they choose to break the law. fuck them.

I did a google search trying to find some "economic impact" articles and while some of these are a few years old, take a look:

http://www.news10.net/storyfull1.asp?id=8495

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html

http://www.scpr.org/news/features/20...mmigrants.html


Some folks will love these sites...

http://www.illegalaliens.us/

http://www.theamericanresistance.com...n_numbers.html

http://www.capitolwatch.org/CW_blog/?p=16

I'm not sure what's magical about making illegal immigration a "felony" other than that I believe it would bar illegals from becoming legal. I think there are plenty of illegals here who are able to avoid breaking laws (other than the violations that are part of trying to remain below the radar, e.g. working for cash). I don't see any reason to treat them all like they are hardcore criminals. The real problem isn't the illegals who are already here, it's the system that makes it too easy for them to come and get by.

That's beside the point. I was criticizing your broadbrush statement that suggests that illegals, by virtue of the fact that they are willing to immigrate illegally, are likely to continue to be lawbreakers. Vietnamese boat refugees were willing to immigrate illegally, but they've proven that they can be a very productive group that assimilates just fine.

Well, you don't like hearing your bank's phone options which is more along the lines I was talking about. In particular, I don't think our government should be conducting business in a foreign language and our public schools should be teaching classes in English. I'm fine with Mexican culture in the form of tex mex restaurants and the occasional pinata at a kid's birthday party.

I'm OK with taking a tough stance with illegals who have no interest in becoming Americans (and certainly with those who are criminals in the traditional sense of the word), but what benefit is there for us to be tough with the illegals who would be willing to assimilate? The only reason it turned out bad when Reagan offered amnesty was because no one ever got around to securing the border or fixing the enforcement issues.

You might want to look at the statistics of illegal Mexicans. They comprise a vast majority of outstanding warrants in most major cities.


Like I said, we haven't invaded Mexico in some time. The Vietnamese were tacitly invited. And, see above. When the Vietnamese illegals raise the same kind if ruckus as the Mexicans, I'll get worried.

Honestly, I'd have considerably less issue with the illegal Mexicans if they didn't fly the fucking Mexican flag during their 'protests,' They're still illegals, but much less offensive, if that makes sense.

You forgot the: "Elect national officials who actually care about the issue" option, so I went with Gaz.

Weren't the Vietnamese more like refugees, seeking asylum?

I mean it's not like they came in droves for twenty years as the Mexicans have been.

**** cheap construction, I'd better still get cheap manicures.

Yeah, your boyfriend hired American construction for his new deck. Heh.

Don't know how "cheap" Phil was/is though.... :hmmm:

OTOH, Phil seems chummy with TJ, and that goatee....there may be some Hispanic bloodlines there..... :spock:

First, if you're here illegaly you ARE a criminal. You broke the law.

Second, you ARE taking American jobs. Just because those jobs are shitty jobs doesn't mean they quit being American jobs. They are in America, they have a job, THAT'S A ****ING AMERICAN JOB.

Stupid/lazy/unfortunate Americans have to work too.

And don't give me the BS argument that the economy will crumble. Guess what? Last time we took advantage of an ethnicity for economic gain the people who did it said the economy would crumble if we quit ****ing them over for our benefit.

I think we're doing ok.

Donger,

Your 'let's be tough' attitude is what props up the underground. Dependence on the underground is what keeps many Latinos from assimilating. Non-assimilation is why bussinesses are catering to Spanish speaking people.

This is what I meant by a complicated situation.

If we change our idiotic laws about immigration, you won't need to guard the boarders so closely. Building a wall is a doomed proposition.

Also, you say they had a choice. Many of them don't feel that they did. If you had it within your power to give your daughter a life as retail store manager, or as a prostitute, which would you 'choose'?

Luz
you cannot over simplify this...

You could say the same thing for terrorism.

Should we quit arresting people who want to s'plode us in the hopes they'll be less agitated?

It's complicated be the rich in this country have found a way to bring back endentured servitude, laughing to the bank for decades now.

No it isn't. Not only would it create jobs for those with few skills who DIDN'T break the law to come here it protects the nation.

Plus, it saves mexican lives.

If Russians and Eastern Europeans can come to the midwest by the truckloads, legally, don't act like it's impossible for Mexican immigrants. It's not.

Raush,

I've always liked your posts, but some of what you're saying here is just plain silly. Saying the same argument applies to terrorists? come on...

I have no vested interest in trying to convince you or anyone else, but you seem very closed on this issue.

Luz
maybe an employer that has lived in and traveled extensively through Latin American countries couldn't know as much about the subject as you do...

It's a crime. Period.

Name any other crime: speeding, smoking pot, theft under $50.

Is it smart to decriminalize any of those just because hundreds of thousands doi it?

Of course not, and this argument for illegal immigration is just as silly.

I don't see how being in latin America has anything to do with the situation.

Mexico is a shitty place to live. Granted, I wouldn't want to be there either. But so is China, and we can't let in 3 bazillion chinese because they have it rough.

I'm all for opening schools in Mexico, on THEIR side of the border to teach english and give LEGAL immigrants a legitimate chance. We should encourage legal immigration. We should make it easier to immigrate.

The main argument for illegal immigration is greed, plain and simple. Employers who want cheap wages to keep prices and wages down to keep profits up. That's it. Greed.

Keep the immigrants who enter stupid and uneducated (read: illegal) so they have to work for low wages and take what they can get. As long as there's a fear factor they won't complain about working conditions or pay.

Opportunity should not be stolen in this country, it should be earned.

Have we learned nothing from our first run with taking advantage of an ethnicity for economic benefit?

What happens when millions of illegals get fed up with getting hosed? What happens when they get pissed watching white high school kids make more at McD's while they work their azzes off?

What happens when 1/2 a million illegals march, pissed off, and it's not peaceful?...

This is how I feel. Everyone, not just people from Mexico, should be deported. If you want to be in this country you should enter legally. If we can let this pass then why do we have laws. We should not change a law because people are breaking it. I understand what they must be going through over there in mexico, but a lot of people have died so that we can have the freedoms we have so the mexicans need to overturn thier government and create one that is more friendly to their people. Its time for them to fight and be willing to die for a better country not take advantage what another country has fought for. I say close the borders and make anyone entering the country go through the proper channels. Mexico will be the door to our next attack on America if we dont get a handle on this issue.

I think it's simple but then again I'm old and simple. Just do what you'd do if any other law was broken. Enforce the law. That's for those that cross the border, those that are here, and those that hire them. Just enforce the law.

Yea, I'm sure the consumer doesn't have any say in that. They'd much rather pay more for a service provided by legals, right? The reason this has gone on at the level it has is because people are too busy reaping the rewards of this cheap labor to be legitimately outraged by it.

No offense, but you're ingnorant on the subject, and your redass act doesn't add much to this thread.

Are there any other laws that might be changed to make the activity legal?

Just wondering if I can break some laws and have it be OK.

And if so, which ones. The immigration stuff doesn't do me any good.

What laws can I break and have it be ok? I want in on this action too.

No. I mean literally do nothing. The reason it works so well right now is because these guys don't have SSNs. They don't actually exist to the gov't so they automatically earn 18% more than their US counterpart. And the company hiring them doesn't have to pay as much overhead so everyone wins. ESPECIALLY the end consumer (US).

Look. Every dime these guys make goes right back into our economy. They pay cash for everything so they need no credit and you can always count on them to pay or risk being deported.

A week ago this wasn't even an issue to most Americans. And it still shouldn't be. We actually have a system in place that works so naturally the Govt wants to change it.

Just leave it alone and DO NOTHING.

That's not even close to true. The key reason Presidente Fox refuses to even acknowledge that it's illegal for Mexicans to sneak into America is that these people send millions of dollars back to Mexico. It's a huge boon to their economy.

Your post also ignores the burden they put on our tax pool. We're having to put ESL teachers in every school, so we can teach the children of people who don't pay the taxes that make the ESL teacher's salary. Not to mention medicare and other social welfare programs that they use but don't contribute to, the streets they drive on, the police time they consume, etc, etc.

Welcome to the wonderful world of globalization in 2006. In order to compete, we have to import illegal aliens. At least we can say it was MADE in America... :clap:

I disagree that have to import illegals. We may need to import laborers, but I don't agree that it they have to be illegals.

We may also need to keep them on visas so they don't get so comfortable with American life that they begin to demand more money. The reason these people work for cheap isn't about fear like so many people think. It's because $5 per hour is ten times what they were earning in Mexico. Work visas and a fresh rotation might keep them from getting too comfortable with American wages. The threat of going back home to $20 per week, will keep them grateful.

Do you have any evidence of this being the reason for their not assimlilating, or is it merely your opinion?

What are you suggesting?

Thankfully, my parents chose to immigrate legally. There IS an available method to gain entry to this country legally. They choose not to.

Luz
you cannot over simplify this...[/QUOTE]

What part of ILLEGAL don't these immigrants not understand? The tax burden falls on all of us honest, hard-working TAXPAYERS to foot the bill for those that CHOOSE to SPONGE off of society. Why the Hell should we pay for somebody to have FREE Healthcare and education AND be paid TAX-FREE money.

If you honestly think that description applies to the majority, or even a significant number, of the people whom we are talking about....you are simply buying into the ignorant stereotypes that too many Americans perpetuate without actually researching the statistics. Please consider reading the thread and some of the links, or doing some basic research ,before you say something like that.

If nothing else, this much is clear: illegals are NOT a "drain" on the economy or tax payers. They more than pay for the services rendered unto them, through the payment of taxes by those who have jobs and are paying taxes. Juan may be a leech; but Santiago, Maria, and Felipe more than off-set the services Juan is getting.

That's wrong: Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

The solution is not as complicated as it seems...

one of the main reasons for the illegal immigration is it's so difficult and expensive for anyone to migrate here legally. The process of obtaining a green card needs to be streamlined and expedited. That is why you have nearly half of all 'illegal aliens' here with papers like expired travel or student visas. These people HAVE documents and if they've been in the country for than two years past the expiration of their visa they should be granted access to making their standing legal. It should not be difficult if they have learned the language, are working, and have fully integrated into American life. If this ONE STEP, is done then it will have a greater impact on stopping the flow of illegal immigration than would a fence.

Much of the cause of illegal immigration is the paperwork, time, and expense to do it legally. Thus, if the process were simplified this issue would be easier to handle because the alternative would not seem so inviting...

So...

Is there any paperwork I can fill out making it OK for me to break laws?

I just want to get in on this breaking-laws-and-get-away-with-it deal. Sounds kinda cool. I've never been a law breaker before......

Much of the cause for illegal immigration is a corrupt governement that is incapable of providing a decent life for it's citizens.

What tripe. Last time I checked, it was right around $190 to apply and file for residency, and the forms are readily available.

* Edit - I was wrong. It's $330 to file form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

There's no question that these people have broken the law. But arresting them all and deporting them simply is not a viable solution. There's too many of them, and the cost wouldn't jive with the severity of the offense.

You can sit there and cry about them getting away with breaking the law until your dying day, but the simple fact is it's too late to do anything significant about punishing those that are already here. Our government let it go unpunished too long to do anything about it now.

The only thing we can do is take serious steps towards stopping the entry of new illegals, while doing what we can to get current illegals to start contributing to the tax base through legalization.

I've seen those numbers disputed, and countered. I'll see if I can dig them up here today....

I suspect those numbers are on a per family basis.....the Gonzales family, for example, may use $2,700 more in services, but the Rodriguez, Morales, and Sanchez families contribute more than enough to pay for themselves and some of the families who don't pull their own weight. In other words, there are clearly cases where some are a "burden" but the revenues generated by others off-set the "costs" of those that aren't pulling their weight. Overall, there is a considerable net gain, in terms of revenue versus costs.

I'll have to dig for it though.... :hmmm:

You got the raw numbers for that?

Meanwhile, for around $1000, you can secure an illegal path across the border, and for another $500 you gan get a transport to the midwest in a vehicle that's unlikely to be stopped in the INS heavy southwest states.

It has nothing to do with expense.

It does have to do with ignorance. You're talking about people coming from villages with only one phone for the entire village. People that still believe in myths and obscure herbal remedies. All it takes is Uncle Juan from the US to tell them that it's too hard to come in legally, and it's the gospel.

Too many people believe it really is easier to come in illegally, and in many ways it is. They can get here in a week illegally by borrowing money from someone already here.

It's from the Center for Immigration Studies website. I do not know if they have the raw numbers available.

Precisely. It's easier to break the law than to follow it.

And then you get to work tax free when you get here.

Would someone who wants to get into the country file an N-400? I'm not up on immigration law, but I'm guessing most illegal workers would probably try to be legally admitted on a non-immigrant basis, not on a naturalization track.

Also, what's the probability that a manual laborer in Mexico would be granted a visa for permanent residence? I don't think it's the cost that's keeping them out (many pay very high amounts to be smuggled in), it's that their applications would either be extremely delayed or denied.

My parents were so stupid. I'd be making a fucking killing right now if I didn't have to pay taxes.

Well, it looks like Kotter is on the trail. But just thinking it out, it's probably bullshit. It's going to take the raw numbers to convince me I'm wrong, not just the say-so of a lobbying group.

It's definately a slow process, and has become exponentially slower since 9/11.

I had a friend that came here illegally. He ended up having a daughter, and applied for naturalization. He was told the process would take about two years, and that he was not allowed to leave the country while in process or his right to naturalization would be permantly revoked. In other words, he was forced to stay in the US illegally until he was processed. About a year into it, the 9/11 attacks happened. He was then told that the delay would be closer to 5 years. 5 years that he is forced to stay here illegally, while waiting to become legal.

When we did it, you had to apply for residency, get a green card and then after seven years of legal residency, you could apply for naturalization. I don't know if that has changed.

Back then, the numbers were limited per country of origin. We had to wait for two years to be granted residency.

How is there a net gain?

How can you possibly say we do better getting 75% of the taxes owed instead of 100%

Keep in mind, we're talking about low income families that don't pay their own way even if they are paying 100%.

Yes. I case people don't know, ANY child born on US soil is immediately granted citizenship, even those born of illegals.

I'm looking for the site, and the numbers...but I've gotta duck out for awhile.

Suffice it to say, we aren't just talking about income taxes here....and I'm talking about OVERALL costs for services given to illegals (as a group), compared to OVERALL revenues from all taxes paid by illegals. It's pretty clearly a net gain, according to the stuff I've seen.

From what I remember, that's true of LEGAL immigrants. The data for illegals is, of course, spotty at best.

Here's something:

Although immigrants receive less assistance from the federal government, the average immigrant family pays more in taxes than the average American-born family. The SIE reported in 1976 that the average American-born family paid $3,008 in taxes per year. In comparison, immigrant families who had been in the United States 10 years or less paid $3,369. Those living here 11 to15 years paid $3,564 and those here 16 to 25 years paid $3,592. Also, a 1996 Heritage Foundation study reported that immigrant men had a slightly higher labor force participation rate than American-born men (77 percent vs. 74 percent), so a larger proportion paid employment-related taxes. Among the largest group of recent immigrants - Hispanics - the proportion of men who work was 83 percent.

All numbers mentioned above are for legal immigrants. However, the available numbers for illegal immigrants, while spotty, do not show a negative economic effect. A 1995 Cato Institute study found that illegal immigrants paid approximately 46 percent as much in taxes as American-born citizens, but they received only 38 percent as much from the government. Also, contrary to popular belief, the majority of illegal immigrants were not destitute fence-jumpers but were middle-class tourists or students who overstayed their visas.

Naw, no crying here.

I'm just into my own selfish ideas.

And....I want the same treatment as anyone else....when it comes to breaking laws.

Considering there isn't a net gain from most low income families, regardless of legal status, I have serious doubts about any net gain from only a percentage of illegals.

I know there's stuff about how employers pay into SS for illegals that will never collect, but I seriously doubt it equates to a net gain across the board. And besides, I don't think that's the way we should be propping up our broken SS system anyway.