Are you ****ing high?

My sentiments exactly. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

run, run, run,punt
run, run, run,punt
run, run, run punt
run, run, run, punt
run, run, run, punt
run, run, pass punt
pass, pass, int
pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, run, td
pass, pass, int


that was the gameplan

herm's fault, yah, not entirely but mostly

Too bad Indy didn't put in their backup QB, they probably would have scored a lot more.

no shit
give Gun the AFC West or game tape he will be okay
give him something new and he is clueless

You don't think yesterday was a humiliation? It was total humiliation. Even with the plays made by the defense. They still gave up 450 yards.

For *Og's sake, what game were you watching?







*God. But I didn't want to use that word with you being a holy dude and all.

Dude, you and me called this shit. Herm's Martyocre redux. All we can do is wait it out.

I was pretty upset when I posted that. I was looking to say something positive, and the D was something positive. Even with the gaudy stats, our D kept us in that game til our 2nd to last turn over.

I understand.

Gunt sent him a care package a few years ago while he was in the Middle East, so in his mind, Gunt can do no wrong.

He's just a couple rungs below Og.

Gunther sucks. This isn't even His defense.

Gunther's Defense was So bad....HERM even recognised it and implemented his Cover 2.

Gunther is incapable of in game corrections to his plan.

My fear is, Donnie Henderson was fired by the lions........

Only a complete moron would be proud of not forcing a team to punt.

You sir, just illustrated your imperfect understanding of NFL football. The 1997 Chiefs defense under Gunther Cunningham set a league record by going 8 straight games without allowing a TD in the 2nd half. If that isn't skill at halftime adjustments, there is no such thing as halftime adjustments.

We've seen time and time against since Gunther returned that he can't do it. How about that Cleveland game? How about any multitude of games from 2004 and 2005?

Gunther needs top-notch talent and a defensive head coach to hold his hand in order to "coordinate" a good defense. He's a glorified cheerleader.

Gun is running Herm's defense...

there is no way that Gun would choose to play such a passive defense ... he just doesn't have the patience.


he still can't teach a blitz to save his own arse.



nope ... Gunther is pretty average without the ready-made pass rush of Thomas/Smith to lean on.

Would you like to use your football genius to review the effects of Gunther's last 2 defensive efforts?

Very, very little of this version(see tampa 2) has ANYTHING to do with Gunther. I was a supporter, but he's done nothing this season but prove his ability to adjust during the game are pathetic. I can pull specific numbers if you require them.

Like the heart they showed in Cleveland?

Holding Indy's O to 23 points in the dome is pretty damn good. If our O had come to play, we would have blown them out.

Allowing INDY to run for nearly 200 yards is anything but positive. The entire middle of the D is a butt pickle.

Um they did come to play and excuted Herms gameplan to perfection...


What we witnessed is what you get with Herm... Beautiful match of wits and adjustments by Herm and his staff...

If the offense gets even 10 1st downs, you can take 100-150 yds of Indy's total offense off the box score. We left that D on the field for FORTY minutes against the Colts at the RCA Dome.

I agree. I was also inspired by our defense.

However, I strongly disagree with your attempts to give credit to Gunther Cunningham. I think this defense has improved in spite of Gunther. If we are predictable on offense we are even more predictable with his blitzes. We get burned every time Gunther blitzes. This defense improved as soon as Herman Edwards put his stamp on it. Herm's defense is playing with a better plan and with more purpose and pride. Gunther hasn't been able to do anything, IMO, unless he's got a couple of studs coming off the ends ala, DT and Neil Smith. Hali's arrival (Herm's pick) has enhanced the defense in this way and has given us a foundation to build on.

IMO, Gunther is clueless. This is Edward's defense. Hali, Page, & Pollard are just the first step in making this defense dominant again.

JMHO.

Baloney.

Your ridiculous love for Gunther has you believing the defense was doing anything but playing The Little Dutch Boy defense. The Colts got at least one first down on every drive until their 4th series of the second half. Which was with about 4:30 to play in the game. In reality, the defense was on the field so much because they couldn't get a stop. At all.
Law came to the rescue. And so did Page.

The O was horrible. We all realize that. The D was ..... somewhere between bad and almost okay.
======================================================


Colts drives:
First Half
1 - 3 1st downs
3 - 2 1st downs
4 - 2 1st downs
5 - 4 1st downs
6 - 2 1st downs
Second Half
1 - 2 1st downs
2 - 5 1st downs
3 - 4 1st downs
4 - 0 1st downs
5 - 0 1st downs
6 - 0 1st downs

Any team that has a great Defense has GREAT players. Bears, have Great players. Dolphins have Great players. Ravens? again, Great players. Chiefs? we dont have that. Guntharr had to come in here with Vermeils garbage and grab a few players in free agency to try to get a lil balance of talent on the team.

This team has 2 possible players that can become great that are young. Allen and DJ. Hali i think will be good, but he wont ever be a great players. Maybe Page and Pollard have a chance, we just havent seen that much of them on Defense. Not like we have seen Allen and DJ.

Tell me about alll those great players on the Philly defense over the years under Jimmy Johnson.

That defense has always been better than the sum of it's parts because JJ maximizes the talent he has to work with.

He has had a couple of outstanding players, but he has never been loaded.

The same could be said of the talent in Carolina.
Couple of outstanding players again, but again better than the sum of the parts.

And there is, of course, the Patriots this decade.

Blitzing is bad, it's a cover up for a lack of talent/htismaqe

Yep, every coach will tell ya they rather never blitz and hope their front 4 can get to the QB like the Bears.

Yep, every coach will tell ya they rather never blitz and hope their front 4 can get to the QB like the Bears.



BLitzing is what desperate teams do. Then again, it doesnt matter how you get to the QB as long as you do.


Also, for some of New Englands runs, they had Bruschi, Mcginist. Laywer Milloy. Ty Law, Rodney Harrision. Them are some pretty damn good players in their prime.

I think that's fair. I think people forget just how bad this defense was 2002-2004. Biblical proportions. Very, very bad.

I admit I love Gun, tho not for the personal reasons some wags like to chide me about. I just like his defenses over the years. He is hyper agressive. My gosh, Herm is laid back, Solari is a rookie OC, without SOMEBODY fired up on this staff, we don't have much attitude. You sure as hell didn't haer any defensive players talking about how things need to change in THEIR scheme... :hmmm:

And they also played pretty solid defense with Randall Gay and Troy Brown in their secondary.

He's never had a good defense that didn't consist of Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, or James Hasty. I agree that it takes good players but I also think it takes a good defensive coordinator and I don't think Gunther is a good one. I think this is Herman Edwards' defense, not Gunther's. I think Gunther's job is to implement Herm's defense.

Hali is the only regular other than Law (mediocre season) and the journeymen DTs (Reed & Edwards) that is new to this defense. Page has great potential but as far as this season goes his contributions have been sometimes spectacular but overall modest. The players that Gunther brought in have either been busts or are already gone (Siavvi, Bell, etc.)

I think the best thing that could happen to this team is a new offensive coordinator. If Herm were not a defensive-minded coach we'd need a new defensive coordinator, too. I know that both Peterson and Edwards are loyal to Gunther and I don't think Cunningham has the menatality to resign if he thought he wasn't up to the task. So I think we're stuck with him. He's fiery and he might make a good linebackers coach but I don't think he's a good defensive coordinator.

The difference between this year's defense and last year's defense is Herman Edwards, the 2006 draft, a couple of journeyman DTs, and the new scheme, all of which are Edward's doing. Blitz happy Gunther only knows how to telegraph blitzes. When that doesn't work then he's lost, IMO.

This has become the new en vogue cliche.
This D gave up the fewest points since 1999. Its not great, but its good and getting better.

This wasn't Gunther's scheme.

Did you happen to see how effective Gunther's scheme was LAST season?

Well, we won 10 games with a pretty weak roster.

Yeah....that had nothing to do with teh offense putting up 42 points per game....and sometimes giving up 45

Gunther can coach a good defense if you surround him with very good talent.

Your welcome,

Herm Edwards.

Carolina plays zone defense. They don't blitz like Philly does at all.

Please, provide us with the name of a DC that can use the Chiefs 2005 roster and dominate opponents.

First, off, Peterson is NOT loyal to Guntharr, if he was he wouldnt have fired hiim over the internet. SO we can lay that to rest.

2ndly, the D showed flashes of bieng good last year. they were inconsistant as hell, but they were making progress.


About Gun only knowing blitz's how did he contain Manning? The announcers during saturdays game said they talked to Gun before the game, and he told them he would not blitz much becuase Manning will burn you. WHile Herm may have a little bit to do with what he wants ran. I am prettty sure it was Guntharr's gameplan. I could be wrong, but you could be too, we really dont know as we dont know Herm ro Gun personally.

THen you talk about some of the busts Gun brought in. What about some of the people that he did pick up? Allen, DJ, and Surtain.

Hell Patriots tried to get ****ing Warfield on their team. Everyone makes a mistake.


I could care less of Gun stays or goes.I want the Chiefs to do what they gotta do to win, but most people here just have so much hate towards something they wont even look at both sides of it.

We were a 4-12 team that finished 9-7. Two weeks from now, it's business as usual. Next slogan:

The Kansas City Chiefs: Lowering fan expectations for over thirty years, and performing beyond them!

Don't blame the roster. That was Gunther's roster. Gun asked for those players. They were handpicked by him. If he couldn't get them to play well, it's his fault.

Rob Ryan.

He took a defense with arguably LESS talent and he not only produced, he did so in spite of an offense that played like we did on Saturday for an ENTIRE SEASON.

wow ... i don't think i was around when KcJohnny was in full force last time.

dude is passionate ... gotta give him that. LMAO

Fair enough. Still, I'll take Gun over Ryan head-to-head. Good point, though.

So I have a good point, but you'd still take Gun? At least you're willing to admit your bias.

Every word I post on here is unmitigated bias embellished with self-aggrandizing bombast. I thought that was the point. :shrug:

Well, Gunther signed something for him and mailed it to him... that cemented KCJ's devotion to the dude.

That's why Peterson brought him back, right? Why would he have done that? Why did Gunther return? Peterson's love for Gunther has been well-documented. Why else would a GM in the NFL bring back a guy that he fired previously regardless of his performance? Loyalty would be my guess.

When you have few outstanding players (Allen, DJ) you will show flashes but not consistency. Great players alone do not guarantee consistency. Good coaching and a good scheme go farther in doing that. The credit goes to Herm, IMO.

I'm pretty sure it was Herm's gameplan.


I don't know but I'll bet Allen was Vermeil's choice because he reminded him of his beloved Grant Wistrom. Gunther has tended to prefer project/potential guys like Siavvi/Battle/Bartee/Carlos Hall, etc. rather than production guys like Allen and Hali. Derrick Johnson was a no-brainer that we were fortunate to have fall to us.

I hardly have hatred for Gunther. I like the guy. I just don't have any faith in his ability to orchestrate a top tier defense without a defensive-minded head coach like Herm or Marty looking over his shoulder.

They didn't play him for 6 years. They didn't give him 28 million dollars.

It was Mr. Hunt who directed CP to bring Gun back.

Ha ha. Yeah right.

I guess you don't get local TV.

This topic is laughable. The same Gun that refused to blitz two crappy quarterbacks in Cleveland? Ha. ROFL

I don't need local TV to tell me that statement is BS.

And was it Mr. Hunt that directed him to fire Gunther? Nice try but get real.

Well you are wrong, Metro Sports ran the story on the event of Mr. Hunt's funeral. I am sure other locals heard it, too.

well the good thing is gun had NOTHING to do with that. I know the Chiefs made a huge mistake, but my post is for backing up Guntharr not stupid ass carl.

I would believe that Lamar Hunt gave Peterson the okay if Carl wanted to rehire Gunther but I can't believe that Lamar ordered Peterson to do so. That would be out of character for Lamar Hunt, IMO. That sounds ridiculous.

Gunther got fired for a reason and he got re-hired for a reason. I believe he was brought back out of loyalty for the defenses that he produced during his previous stint as DC and for his loyalty toward the organization. I believe that Hunt and Peterson both had an affection for Gunther because Cunningham bleeds chiefs red.

However, lets not forget that the defense started going downhill as soon as Marty left and showed it's first signifigant improvement once Herm arrived. I don't think that's coincidence.

Pretty sures dont work. We dont know whos plan it was, you can speculate all you want, but you still dont relaly know, and either do i.

Again, you dont really know. It was all speculating. If your loyal to someone you DO NOT i repeat you do NOT fire them over the internet. I dont care how you spin it. You just dont do that to someone your loyal to.

No kidding. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Just utter nonsense.

I'm going by each coach's track record. We're playing Herm's style of defense, not Gunther's. If it walks like Herm's defense and quacks like Herm's defense, then it's probably Herm's defense.

Does anyone really know how that all went down? Could it have been nothing more than Carl being responsible for the cart arriving before horse without it being a case of disrespect?

Gunther was brought back without doing anything significant to merit that return other than his previous performance as Chiefs DC. Certainly, his development of Keith Bullock doesn't earn him a new DC job by itself?

Also, it's no coincidence that our defense started going downhill after Marty left and only made a significant improvement once Herm's scheme was installed and Edwards brought in a bunch of his type players.

we don't need to know.....


Herman Edwards is the coach ... he's responsible for the gameplan on both sides of the ball.


Even if he "does nothing" he is making the decision by absentia.

actually yes, Guntharr said he was surfing the internet and he seen that was was out as coach. so thats how that went down. I even think Carl at one point admited to it, and said it was totally wrong by his part.

I also think i remmeber Gun saying he played alot of cover 2 last year as well.

I know but listen to what I'm asking.

Do you really believe that Peterson had so much contempt for Gunther that he did not intend to meet with him? Do you really think that Peterson's plan was for Gunther to find out while surfing the internet? I mean, com'n.

It sounds like that side of the story came from Gunther. And why would Cunningham reveal that if he wasn't looking for sympathy or if he wasn't angry? If Peterson really intended to disrespect Gunther why would he rehire him? And why, if Lamar Hunt approved of his firing would he order his rehiring?

Was Cunningham aware that his job was on the line? Probably. Is it possible that he was obsessed with his status? Is it possible that his obsession with the status of his job motivated him to be surfing the net for Chiefs news?

Like I said, isn't it possible that Peterson allowed the cart to get before the horse without it being an intentional act? And isn't it possible that others within the organization knew about it and proliferated the information before Peterson called Gunther?

Isn't it also possible that because Peterson respects Gunther and believes that Cunningham is a "true chief" that his guilt about how all that shit went down partially inspired him to give Cunningham another chance at the job Gunther loves, Kansas City Chiefs defensive coordinator.

I'm rooting for Gunther. I just hope he has the ability to adapt and change. I want him to be here when we hoist the Lamar Hunt Trophy. He is a true chief. I'll give him that.

Fine. No skin off my teeth. Metro Sports reported that after Gun got fired, Mr. Hunt told him, "you're going into exhile for a while. After things die down, you are coming home to Kansas City where you belong." I gives a damn whether you believe me or not, that's what Gun said Mr. Hunt told him.

Yeah, you don't care whether anyone believes you, but you keep arguing with second hand blah blah that nobody but you heard, as if this somehow proves your original point that "Lamar ordered Carl to rehire Gunther". :rolleyes:

Remember, our 2005 defensive roster was hand picked by Gun himself.

Johnny, I have held my peace but now I am going to weigh in with my opinion.

1. I was on the "give Herm a chance" bandwagon because I thought that was the only way to be fair and it is. However, since he has been here Herm has neutered the Offense and made the D average vs. atrocious. Herm is the head coach. It is HIS responsibility and HIS ALONE to formulate the final game plan and give the instructions to his Coordinators to execute it. On the Offensive side of the ball he failed miserably. ESPECIALLY in the game on Saturday. Nobody on this planet can tell me he didn't know after the first series that running the ball up Wiegmanns ass was futile unless the pass opened up the run since Indy was keying on it (the run) so much (with 8 in the box nearly every play).

2. Gunther did a Journeymans job with the talent he has. No more, no less. I WILL say that he needs to improve drastically in his Second Half adjustments. Gunther didn't do the "Master's Job" of containing the Indy offense and saving us more embarrassment, Peyton Manning and Ty Law did. Mainly Peyton Manning. No QB in the friggin universe can throw 3 picks and still win a football game at this level unless the picks are squandered. They were and not just by the Offense. After TG's Touchdown, Gunther's "embarrassment saving" D managed to give up the ass and let Indy score 7.

Fair enough, I have no problem with that analysis. my thread topic does not suggest that Gun = Buddy ryan, but that without Gun, things are even worse now than they would be otherwise. JMO, nothing more.

I think its a fair analysis that Herm grounded the O and improved the D. That gets you 9-8.
I disagree that the d gave up the ___. They took the ball away 4x and got ZILCH for it. On the field 40 minutes against the [soon to be] most prolific passer in NFL history at HOME.

After TG's score and the Colts was on the Field, the D was done they were tired. THey were already passed 35 min on the field because of the horrible offensive performance we saw. Everyone on the Defense was done. They played great 3 quarters, but in the 4th is when you get tired. Thats when teams pull away, and thats what the colts did thanks to the offense. THe defense we played against Indy on sat was the PERFECT scheme and gameplan. Gun did not have to adjust the game plan it was great the whole game.

Gun did a incredible job against the Colts. To bad it was all wasted because of that Raiderlike performance on Offense.

I won't deny that Gun did an OK job. But just OK. Ty Law and Peyton Manning kept us in the game. Ty Law by virtue of his 2 picks, Peyton Manning by throwing them. Neither had anything to do with Gun.

If Law or Wesley miss tackles, its Gun's fault. If Our DBs make plays, its because they are good players. See how that works?

:banghead:

Don't compare apples to oranges. Ty Law caught the dumbass throws made by Peyton "Mamas Boy" Manning. It had nothing to do with Gunther's "Scheme".

Nobody broadcast that Colquitt got the game ball.

This one was worth a bump.

Man, talk about a big epic FAIL.

HAHAH

Once again KCJohnny proves his keen football insight.

He's right, though.

Without Gun the 2008 Chiefs might have been 4-12 instead of 2-14.