Why were Hali and Bowe "HUGE" surprises? Because Chiefs fans were so used to poor drafting in the previous 5 years under DV?

NFL teams expect their first round picks to contribute immediately, the second rounders by year two, third rounders by year three and second day players to provide depth down the road.

The Chiefs seem to have done well with their first round picks the past two years and have hit on some second day picks (Page & Smith, for example). Jeff Webb *may* be a solid contributor (not a superstar), and free agent Rudy Niswanger *may* be a solid right guard (if he can stay healthy).

Throw in Croyle and Page and I'd say the Chiefs have had pretty successful drafts the past two years. And it's likely that all of the players chosen will continue to improve.

Hali has not had a good year.


Boone has not played 15 reg season games yet.

Page and Pollard, though I have not gave up on them, have not been great this year either.

3rd round Kicker Medlock - worked out great.

Though for some reason you think Turk and Tank have gained a lot of experience playing this year. They have not gotten to play a lot.

Medlock was a fifth round pick. You're going to bust ass on a fifth round pick? Ludicrous.

Hali has been hurt all year, yet his numbers are just slightly below his rookie campaign. He'll be fine next year, if not great.

Page and Pollard are playing like second year players. Solid, if not spectacular.

And if you think that Tank & Turk haven't played much this year, then you need to give them props for putting up half the numbers of the starters. What does that tell you?

It'd be nice if you actually knew what you were talking about. Medlock was drafted in the 5th round.

That's right my bad, I was thinking about Turk and Tank and put down the wrong thing but you got the point.

Good thing you never mess up :rolleyes:. But I guess that's easy to do when you jump around on most of what you say :p

I notice a trend with the people bashing Herms picks, they seem to have nothing factual to base their bashing on. They use exaggerations or made up stats to make their iffy points.

Especially considering that most mock drafts had Tank & Turk BOTH going in the second round (see walterfootball.com for one example) and most people were THRILLED to see the Chiefs grab Tank with a late third round pick during draft weekend.

So many unrealistic expectations. Sheesh.

I am not trying to bash his picks. I like some and don't like some. Like anyone else, or any coach's picks. But I am also not going to sugar coat what we have in some of these players. For instance, I was big on Pollard, so far it is not looking real good. On the other hand he has not gotten near the playing time that Page has, so I will not give up on him yet.

I was also stoked that we were able to get him in the 3rd. I really do hope that they work out for the team and are here for a long time. I guess time will tell.

I think it's more of a "backlash" response, Mr. Messier. You know, in reaction to all the posts regarding what a fabulous drafter person Herm is. For a while there, one would think that Herm invented college football, the draft, and could mind-meld with 1000 players simultaneously to determine their futures.

In fact, his drafts have been okay - but not spectacular by any means.

FAX

Ever wonder how this same lousy Oline somehow managed to block one of the top defensive lines last Sunday? They finally grew tired of being thrown under the bus and they played with some heart, desire and pride. A great coach will bring that out in his players every Sunday. There is talent on this team, there isnt enough heart,desire and belief on this team and that falls directly on the coach(s).

ROFL

Dave

Actually it had more to do with Haynesworth not playing much and Svitek showing he can actually play right tackle.

But blame the coaches for not realizing Svitek should be placed at RT all along. :)

All you have to ask is what would this offense be like if Saunders was still OC without Herm meddling? We have gone from a #2 ranking to number 31 in 1.8 years that may be a record. It also points to coaching and descending production from a coaching scheme.

And apart from Roaf and Shields its the same basic group Saunders was working with 2 years ago. And forget green he was good but "the system" helped him and Collins both.

Dave

Saunders is going to be fired in Washington most likely.

Because he hasn't got to run his style offense for a very conservative coach.

Dave

Sorry, this is nonsense.

The Chiefs lost TWO hall of fame offensive lineman in consecutive years. TWO. And you expect that the Chiefs were going to continue producing their offensive numbers? Especially when DV was chasing after any DT in 5 drafts instead of drafting the BAA.

Add to the fact that Waters is 30, Weigman is 34 and Welbourne is in his thirties. They're ALL over 30! That is HUGE!

And if Saunders could do much with far less talent, why isn't he producing the same numbers in Washington, where they CLEARLY have had better offensive players across the board for the past two years? Why aren't they in the top 5?

Gibbs still want to run the counter-trey

Put down the crack pipe dude. DC has a hideous offense and the players are pitiful.

Dave

LOL...you do realize that Joe Gibbs was coordinating the Coryell offense back in San Diego?

Saunders is overrated. He's about as good as the talent he has to work with. No more, no less.

The Redskins have only allowed 24 sacks this year.

Yeah, that line SUCKS. :rolleyes:

Because he's a black coach and we don't want Jessie Jackson in KC? :shrug:

DT

Now thats funny right there!

Dave

I'm talking about the skill positions: QB, WR, RB, TE

Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time

Because we are stupid and can't see that he is a moron that cannot coach in the NFL but want to give him another year or two to make his plan come to fruition.

Santana Moss
Antwaan Randle-El
Chris Cooley
Clinton Portis

Plenty of talent to be ranked better than 21st in scoring offense.

Saunders is about as overrated as they come in the NFL. The guy's entire resume as an OC is what he did in Kansas City when Roaf was here.

WHAT???? W.T.F??

Santana Moss
Antwaan Randle El
Chris Samuels
Pete Kendall
Casey Rabach
Jason Fabini
Todd Wade
Chris Cooley
Todd Collins
Mike Sellars
Clinton Portis

Hideous? Are you out of your mind? How about additional players like Ladell Betts, Mark Brunell, James Thrash, Reche Caldwell and Keenan McCardell?

The Redskins have better receivers, a TE that's just a notch below TG, a solid offensive line, two very good running backs in Betts and Portis, and two very serviceable QB's (Campbell's out for the year).

Where's the "hideous" on that roster? "Hideous" is Kyle Turley, Will Svitek, Damien McIntosh and John Welbourne. Oh, and Samie Parker.

Thanks for your detailed, in depth analysis.

Wow Dave..... wow.....

Herm is a draft Genius!

Missed the point eh?

We do not need to give Hermit more time. He has proven over the past two years that all he can do is tear down an offense and only make some improvement in the defense.

I'm sure others can do as well on defense and also make some strides with the offense.

The biggest strides we can make on offense is to use the talent we have instead of being afraid to score points.

I could not agree with you more, well said.

I've been wrong before...but you can bet Herm will be kept for year 3 of his 4 year contract, yet that will be it without a Break-Through year...Clark is young, but considering his family upbringing...he's a Very smart guy, he knows Chiefs fans deserve & expect more.

IMO, Herm deserves that 3rd year...he thought NY was bad!!?, he walked into a BOILING FURNACE here...he will get 1 more year to fix it & then, if not, i to will ****Officialy**** Jump Ship.

Lets just get behind this Croyle kid, 2 picks Be Damned, nit-picking Be Damned...Brodie has the Right Stuff.

Elmer Fudd

Those are the only players I'll give you the rest are basically Todd Collins bad, Like Synder likes to do there are names on the list of those that were good once but not now.

Dave

Oh I got your point. You hate Herm. You never liked Herm. herm is evil. EVILLLLLLL!!!!!

Not evil. Just a plain ol idiot with a half of a brain.

You are wrong, I don't hate Hermit. I am not appreciative of what he has done to my team. He could be evil, but it's what he did to the team.

And guess who wanted Herm to be the head coach?

Whatever. You CLEARLY don't know WTF you're talking about.

Chris Cooley is an elite TE/H Back. Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts are equal to or better than Johnson and Smith. The receiving core of Moss, Thrash & Randle El blow away Bowe, Parker and Webb.

And the O-line is far, far superior as a unit.

So why hasn't Saunders been able to turn them into an elite unit and what in the world makes you think that with THIS talent, the Chiefs would still be Top 5?

You're nuts.

So the alternative to Hern, is, I assume, not a retread coach, you wouldn't want that, right? I guess we could call Dennis Green. Or a college coach, we're seeing how that doesn't work. Cower said he isn't coming back. So, a really good can't miss coordinator. Be sure to allow a good two more years of 5 wins while he gets his "guys" on the team. Come on. We're on a freight train that left the station. Herm's plan will either work or it won't, but he'll be given the chance, as he should.

Oh really?

How about the fact that the Chiefs moved Svitek to the right side of the line but more importantly, they CUT Chris Terry. They were playing for their JOBS.

Additionally, they didn't face the best defensive tackle in football, Albert Haynesworth. That would have made all the difference in the world.

These guys are OLD. OLD. OLD. There's no amount of coaching that will make them play at a higher level.

They'e DONE.

Ed, you may be a nice guy but week after week, all you bring is hate.

And no insight or knowledge.

LOL.....well when you are breaking in a young QB, you aren't gonna be a top 5 offense, that's all that needs to be said for the Skins. You can have all the skill position players in the world Jason Campbell is/was a first year starter.

Also Chris Cooley ain't no elite TE, there are at least 5 better ones, if not more.

This Herm drafting shit is funny, he's decent at it. That doesn't make the drafts great because they are better than the awful shit they were before..."hey we got a starter in the first round in both Herms drafts" guess what.....you're suppose to you dumb ****.

Top 5 is one thing. If Saunders was so great you'd think the Skins could be, oh, maybe top 15? They don't even approach it. And they haven't improved over last season, either.

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about, do you?

Last year, the Redskins started Mark Brunell. Why weren't they an elite offense then?

Name the 5 TE's that are better than Cooley, then tell me he's not elite.

Gates
Witten
Gonzalez
Cooley
Winslow

These guys have the most catches in the NFL as tight ends. Cooley's got 7 TD's, 2 more than Gonzalez and Winslow and two less than Gates.

If he's not elite, I guess either is anyone outside of Gates.

Gates
Gonzo
Heap
Witten
Clark
Winslow
Crumpler - although he has not had a QB this year

I would consider all of these TE's better

60 catches, 7 touchdowns. $30 million dollar contract.

He is an elite TE.

Yes because you know it's 100% stats......I'm not saying Chris Cooley sucks but he isn't Winslow out there or anything like that.

Just because he's not Winslow doesn't mean that he's not an elite tight end in the league.

There are more than 64 tight ends in the league and to say that Cooley isn't elite would be incorrect.

Ok elite is top 5 to me.......I'd immediately rate Gates, Winslow, Gonzalez and Witten ahead of him so that's 4..

Then after that it gets kind of muddled, Heap comes in, Cooley comes in, Dallas Clark comes in, Shockey comes in..

I think those top 4 separate themselves from the rest.

Cooley's got more touchdowns and more catches than Heap or Shockey and more catches than Clark.

That makes Cooley top 5 in 2007.

You validate what I'm trying to say, a great coach will have them playing for their jobs every week, playing with purpose. Marty did more in his first two years with less.

I'm sure that some of you have already read this in the Star today...but we're on pace for the fewest points in history with the exception of the the 1982 strike-shortened season. For the Herm apologists:

I know that we lost Roaf...then Shields and Green diminished, etc...but you can't seriously tell me that it's reasonable in anyway to see a powerhouse of an offense brought down to this level within two years? When has this ever happened in the NFL?

I'll agree with some of you that the offense had to get younger and was bound to change in the post-Vermeil period...and that there are forces from without that you have no control over (age, retirement, etc.). But dear God...HOW in the world do you stoop to this level from where we were this quickly? Is there another NFL example of a team so decimated so quickly?

It just seems that Herm was bound and determined to hurry the process along for the irrational reason that it wasn't his style of football. I think Roaf, Green, et-al understood this. We can play the "what if" game all day...but I can't help but believe that things could have been much different had Saunders chosen (w/ Herm's request) to stay on as the OC and been left alone to run the offense.

So much of what's happened to this team just seems unnecessary and sad. It just seems that Herm has been so stubborn and prideful about doing "his thing" that whatever was left of Vermeil's team be damned.

I have seen average coaches look great with great players and I have seen average players look great with a great coach, but I've never seen an average coach look great with average players. Something will have to give for the Chiefs to suceed anytime soon. I have not been a Herm basher but I have to admit that I have never seen a coach deflect blame to the players so easily.

Yep, have you watched the Redskins offense the last two weeks? Collins has played both of the last two games. Very solid, made me long for days gone by. :drool:

I am smart enough to avoid pissing in the wind.

While two weeks isn't enough to build a case for Saunders (via Collins vs. Campbell), it will be interesting to watch for the rest of the season. For those that are trying to make a case for the Skins offense and against Saunders. Nobody is saying Saunders is a great OC...but he does run a particular system very well.

Having said that, regardless of the whole cast's talent level, does the Skins' offensive line have pulling/athletic guards and tackles or is it more of a traditional big-line? I've always contended that Saunders/Vermeil offense simply doesn't work without those pull/athletic guys...regardless of the rest of the cast.

Todd Collins was 8 of 25 for 166 yards Sunday night.

You long for those days?

All right. :rolleyes:

LOL @ people pining for Todd Collins. Hey, what's Elvis Grbac doing?

Herm driving me insane at today's presser.

"I came from a family where my daddy tole me stuff and I always tell the players this; when you're going downtown and you're eating yogurt and you spill some yogurt on your shirt, you got to turn that shirt inside out 'cause you don't want to be goin' downtown with that yogurt on the outside, now. Not on that outside. So, I tell them turn that shirt inside out and get it right. Now you spill that yogurt on that shirt after you turned it inside out you got a problem now, 'cause right now the fans understand that we got a lot of guys with a lot of yogurt on their shirt."

FAX

Herm Edwards as a person is top notch. What he does for the kids in his hometown and the KC area reflect his vision to help people and their families. Absolutely AWESOME.

Now, as a head coach thats another story as most people feel at this point in his tenure. Anyone with half a sense of football knowledge and watch this team play on Sunday can see all manner of mistakes,problems, miscues, etc,etc..... this is reflective of the HC. From day one, we've seen it, hardknocks, preseason, reg season. How much more of these mistakes must we endure? How freakin' hard is it to teach tackling? Skip a "jacked-up" hit for espn!! Just tackle the guy!! KC fans have waited long enough! Empty the seats and send a clear message to this administration. We are TIRED of this shit. We deserve better. CLEAN HOUSE NOW

Chris Cooley is officially a Pro-Bowler.

But I guess he's not elite?

:rolleyes:

You cant be serious, tell me this is another work from your ethereal & eclectic mind.

If true...wow...thats bad, thats something from a sports/comedy flic bad.

I hope he's making more sense in the lockerroom.

Conference........outside of Witten the other top TE's are in the AFC.

Dude, you are so out of your element.

Dave Lane was incorrect in stating that Washington has NO talent on the offense. I stated not only do the Redskins have a more talented receiving core, equal to or better than running backs, better QB depth, and extremely superior offensive line (Samuels made the Pro Bowl today for the 5th time), I also stated that Cooley is an elite tight end.

Dave doesn't know WTF he's talking about in regards to the Redskins offensive talent level.

And apparently, you can't admit when you're wrong. You're always making ridiculous claims (Allen isn't any good, Hali sucks and other BS), you can't even admit it when faced with FACTS.

Dane can keep taking what I said and blowing it to a completely different level, it's amusing. But hell everyone else does it too.

If that's your response, then apparently, everything you say here should be taken with a grain of salt.

You're not even man enough to admit when you're wrong. Why would anyone give you props if you were EVER to be correct?

Coming from you, that is pure gold.

Thank you. I'm glad you feel that way. :rolleyes:

If, as you say, everyone else feels that way, shouldn't that tell you something?

HE takes it to a new level though. Actually I think that Dane may actually be Herm.

Dave

All I ever have to point out is that Mecca thought Kawika Mitchell was going to get 30 million dollars. I don't know if that is "taking it to the next level" or not, but it SURE IS ****ING FUNNY.

Yeah, I'm Herm.

Because YOU have no idea WTF you're talking about in regards to the Redskins talent level, I must be a shill for the Chiefs organization.

I thought you were smarter than that.

I may have been mistaken.

Shills for a organization that hasn't won a playoff game in nearly 20 years contribute to a greater problem.

Dave, Dane is right. Saunders has a solid level of talent in Washington. The Redskins should be ranked better than 21st in scoring offense.

Saunders = overrated

Hey you're right I was wrong on that, something tells me he thought he was going to get that seeing as what the Chiefs signed Harris for.

Of course though I'm always wrong and never right to people here. Doesn't matter what the truth may be.

I could make all the excuses Dane makes for Herm for Saunders. Its not his style playersm he does have the players or coaches he wants, he needs more time. Cut him, cut Herm I'm fine with it. And Portis and all the other also rans at DC are not nearly the players you make them out to be. Like Brunell he is a shell of his former self even last year.

Dave

Except that Saunders SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED those players.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Saunders has proven beyond a shadow of doubt he's no better than Gunther as far as coordinators go. He's only as good as the talent he has to work with - and perhaps not even that good.

Saunders should give half of his salary with the Redskins to Willie Roaf.

They actually have looked pretty damn good on offense since their QB of the future went down. I have watched their last two games in complete envy. Todd Collins has looked great and under control in that offense. The Chiefs let the wrong back up go, and I thought so at the time.

The people who hate Saunders enough to still rip him now are just as bad as everyone who rips/defends Herm constantly...

Saunders ain't even here anymore, our team sucks ass, who the **** cares about Al Saunders?