But Huard produced with that lineup?
Hmm...

Bullshit. Players make teams and win starting jobs during the pre-season EVERY single year. His pre-season performance is only being castoff because it was nothing to write home about. Had he thrown 5 TD's during those 3 games it wouldn't be.

Players go full bore in the pre-season to avoid injury to themselves and to their teammates. But his on-the-field performance despite the effort given by other first teamers can't be evaluated? Nonsense.

Sure. I've considered it. The thing is, it cuts both ways. Based on Herm's and Solari's past performance, I'm forced to question their ability to question someone's ability.

Besides, it's difficult to improve when you're "shackled".

FAX

I thought this was a good question and might help define the conversation.

What, specifically, could Croyle have done to make you believe in his potential, Mr. Micjones?

FAX

If they aren't exactly good judges of a QB's ability perhaps putting all of their eggs into the Croyle basket is a bad idea? Just an idea.

I think a player can still improve and do well with what they are allowed to do.
He didn't.

croyle's offensive line last year wasn't average, it wasn't bad, it was historically bad. how the heck anyone could have been expected to suceed much a less a first year starter is beyond me.

Take off the homer glasses. Are you seriously saying he isn't more likely to be nothing than to be a functional starting QB?

Gone out and thrown 2 TD's for 200+ yards (no INT's) and helped this team win a game.

I believe if you think you have your guy you treat him with the same amount of care as you would a first rounder. Wouldn't you be pissing down your leg if you didn't?

I don't expect Brodie to be Elway or Aikman, you don't find guys like those every day, or year for that matter, but he must be given more time to prove whether he can be a productive starter in this league. Fact is, he WILL get that time. He will have this entire season to do just that. If he fails, he fails, and we will be looking for a QB. Hopefully we can use those resources elsewhere with a young strong armed QB pulling the trigger for us.
I think with a strong running game, and solid play calling, Brodie is the guy.
He's a good fit for play action, smash mouth football.

Now, you're just talking in circles. They didn't put all their eggs in Croyle's basket. That's how we got Huard.

And, on one hand, you cite touchdowns as being one measure of success while saying that Croyle should have performed better while "shackled" by morons who prefer to send the RB up the center's ass on 3rd and 8. You're losing me.

FAX

Croyle's time to shine/fail is coming, New OL, WR's, RB's ,TE's,FB's better O Coach.....

let's hope he put his winter off-season to good use. bulking up a bit.

That's where the smart money is, Mr. Brock, to be sure. Still, the same thing could have been said about the kid playing for New England at one time.

If we all have positive thoughts, the ethers may well turn in our favor for once.

FAX

This is the biggest opportunity of his life thus far. He had better be getting prepared for it.

Its definitely possible, he made some throws in 07 that only a handful of QB's can make.

Also, his numbers stack up very well to some of the big shot QB's...how anyone could look at those & conclude that he's nothing more than a warm body is beyond me.

He MIGHT be nothing more than average, but what i've seen gives me hope.

Yep. joe Montana was a third rounder too. And Tom Brady a 6th.

No, you pick a QB and you build. Round of the draft has nothing to do with it.


Secondly:
Brady - 6th
Brees - 2nd
Romo - UDFA
Favre - 2nd
Palmer - 1st
Kitna - UDFA
Manning - 1st
Hasselback - 6th
Anderson - 6th
Cutler - 1st
Warner - UDFA
Manning - 1st
McNabb - 1st
Roethlisberger - 1st
Rivers - 1st
Campbell - 1st
Young - 1st
Garrard - 4th
Bulger - 6th
Schaub - 3rd
Harrington - 1st
Jackson - 2nd
Griese - 3rd
Lemon - UDFA
Pennington - 1st
Boller - 1st
Edwards - 3rd

Only 12 first round draft picks in this list, which is sorted by Yards. If ANYTHING, this proves that the draft is no show of what kind of QB the player will be.

Absolutely not.
That's the way of the NFL.
Third Round picks aren't afforded the same kind of patience.
It's a much smaller commitment.

This organization would be foolish to make him the unequivocal starter despite poor performance. Especially if he comes out and lays another stink nugget in the pre-season. If he wins the job outright I have no problem with him being the guy. If he does not... I don't want to see him under Center.

I agree, the money on ANY young QB is that they will not be a functional starting QB. Which is why I thought we should have traded up into the second round using two of our third round picks and picked up Brohm.

Sadly, I saw him on the news a couple of weeks ago and he still looks the size of Barney Fife.

And Herm only gives him one bullet and makes him keep that one in his pocket.

FAX

Also look at the amount of offensive firepower surrounding the guys at the top. that always helps.

If you believe he's your guy you must give him a chance to develop.

Yeah, even Todd Blackledge would have sucked behind that line.

Does placing a paper bag on your head whilst drinking water cure the hiccups?

FAX

Why did you omit Elway's W-L record? Was it intentional? Just curious.

It must have gotten lost in some formatting issues i had.

AFC East
New England Patriots, Tom Brady (Sixth Round)
Buffalo Bills, Trent Edwards (Third Round)
Miami Dolphins, John Beck (Second Round)
New York Jets, Kellen Clemens (Second Round)

AFC West
Oakland Raiders, JaMarcus Russell (First Round)
Kansas City Chiefs, Brodie Croyle (Third Round)
San Diego Chargers, Philip Rivers (First Round)
Denver Broncos, Jay Cutler (First Round)

AFC North
Pittsburgh Steelers, Ben Roethlisberger (First Round)
Cincinnati Bengals, Carson Palmer (First Round)
Baltimore Ravens, Troy Smith (Fifth Round)
Cleveland Browns, Derek Anderson (Sixth Round)

AFC South
Tennessee Titans, Vince Young (First Round)
Jacksonville Jaguars, David Garrard (Fourth Round)
Indianapolis Colts, Peyton Manning (First Round)
Houston Texans, Matt Schaub (Third Round)

NFC East
New York Giants, Eli Manning (First Round)
Dallas Cowboys, Tony Romo (Undrafted)
Washington Redskins, Jason Campbell (First Round)
Philadelphia Eagles, Donovan McNabb (First Round)

NFC West
St. Louis Rams, Marc Bulger (Sixth Round)
Arizona Cardinals, Matt Leinart (First Round)
Seattle Seahawks, Matt Hasselbeck (Sixth Round)
San Francisco 49ers, Shaun Hill (Undrafted)

NFC North
Detroit Lions, Jon Kitna (Undrafted)
Chicago Bears, Kyle Orton (Undrafted)
Minnesota Vikings, Tavaris Jackson (Second Round)
Green Bay Packers, Aaron Rodgers (First Round)

NFC South
New Orleans Saints, Drew Brees (Second Round)
Carolina Panthers, Jake Delhomme (Undrafted)
Atlanta Falcons, Matt Ryan (First Round)
Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Jeff Garcia (Undrafted)

12 Starting QB's drafted in the First Round.
21 QB's taken in the First Round since 2000.
QB taken #1 overall in 8 of the last 10 drafts.
The last two Superbowl MVP's were First Round draft picks.
In the last decade twice as many QB's drafted than in the 10 years prior.
Just 6 of the remaining QB's (#3's or lower) on my list have had any NFL success.

Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Philip Rivers
Eli Manning
Don McNabb

5 unquestionably good QBs (with Rivers on the border IMO) drafted in the first rnd in the last decade.

These guys were drafted in the 1st too.

J.P. Losman
Byron Leftwich
Ryan Leaf 2nd overall
Tim Couch 1st overall
Akili Smith
Chad Pennington ?
Mike Vick 1st overall
Jason Campbell
Kyle Boller
Cade McNown
Patrick Ramsey
Joey Harrington 3rd overall
David Carr 1st overall
Alex Smith 1st overall
Rex Grossman.

Which list is longer?

I wonder how long the list of unsuccessful QB's drafted in the Third Round would be? I'm just guessing here... But I'd imagine it's a lot longer.

There are a multitude of factors to that as well. If you invest 1st pick money into a player, you have to develop them, whereas a lot of teams will get impatient as you are now and abandon seemingly EQUAL (statistically) prospects.

There are other factors with First Round picks as well.

I'm not impatient. I'm looking at the evidence in front of me.
The kid was no better in the 9th start than he was when he took his first pre-season snap. If I were in charge...I would've drafted someone and forced him into a serious competition in the off-season.

There's no reason why you can't flash in 1 stinking football game to show me you deserve more evaluation time. I'm sorry.

You guys are coddling Brodie Croyle.
Everyone keeps oversimplifying the issue like time and opportunity is all that's necessary for him to develop. Having the requisite skills be damned.

I'm all in favor of competition. But you can't make plays from your ass, and Brodie was probably the most sacked QB in the NFL last year over the last 6 games. The kid actually needs a chance to play in order to prove himself.

The requisite skills for QBs are quite intangible. The physical attributes necessary, Brodie has. Whether or not hes the leader, whether or not he'll be able to make good decisions when he has more than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball and a gameplan that the defense doesn't KNOW, whether or not he can learn accuracy and touch, whether or not he can stay healthy,these are the questions.

That certainly didn't help him last year...

You need to look a little closer, cause Croyle only started 6 games.

He had three pre-season starts.
We've been through this.

The evidence in front of you for Croyle has been shown to be comparable to HOF QBs in their first starts.... whether you dismiss that or not. The fact that you wouldn't give him any more time because of where he was picked doesn't change that fact.

Nobody is coddling Croyle. None of his defenders here are saying he's a probowler.

Whether he has the requisite skills or not is your opinion. Obviously those in charge don't agree with your assessment.

LMAO at some of you people. Croyle isn't worth the shit he wipes off his boots after he gets done duck hunting. I know, I know, we haven't seen him with an oline, yada yada. That's OK!!!!, as Herm would say, because you guys will see the proof this year that he's shit. I've already seen enough though.

Worst case scenario : You're right and he's terrible. That puts us in a fantastic position to draft one of the best QB's available.

Best case scenario: You're wrong and Croyle emerges as a top young QB.

What's the problem?

I know what you're getting at...it's a win-win situation is what you're saying. I disagree ONLY for the fact that this franchise will be, once again, behind.

I fail to see how we'll be behind. We're not going to the playoffs this year or next more than likely. Another decent draft like this year and we'll have a good set up and depth at many positions, O-line especially! Then depending on how Brodie does this year, we'll either have our QB, or we'll draft a top prospect that will have a decent group of players surrounding him.:thumb:

Faith, Mr. Vanilla Thunder. Faith. It can move a mountain, quell the storm, and make us a friggin' quarterback.

FAX

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side kid"

Han Solo

Luke would've kicked his ass though.

He should never be mentioned in the same breath with Hall of Fame QB's.
It's beyond me why he ever was. You can't expect to forecast his future by pitting him against players who are some of the very best to EVER play the game.

That's the way of the NFL. Players drafted in higher rounds get more time to prove themselves than middle and late round picks. That can't even be argued. Why you've made this into my own personal philosophy speaks volumes.

Thanks Captain Obvious.
But isn't that what the entire thread is composed of? Opinion?

I can say that he hasn't proven he has the requisite skills.
You wanna argue that?

And those three people are...
*A man who wanted Damon Huard to run the offense just one year ago
*A defense-oriented coach
*A coach who has only had a modicum of success in the now defunct NFLEL

You got me there Chief.
:rolleyes:

Sometime after Tom Brady's 2nd year in the league, I'm sure someone said that.

Croyle was a first day draftee. That's a high enough investment. Again, joe Montana was also a 3rd rounder. If you were in charge of the Niners they'd be minus 3 SB wins.

Nevertheless, they have a better vantage point to observe BC than you and I.

It's humorous that you think so little of him that you feel he shouldn't even be compared to other QBs. The fact that you won't even acknowledge the similarity in first game starts shows your bias. Would it have been wrong to compare Aikman or Elway in their first 6 starts to HOF QBs at that time? What's the requirements for this comparison rule you think exists?

And I don't know how you can say that's the way of the NFL. Simply looking at the current list of starting QBs proves that to be wrong. By your standards, players like Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Marc Bulger, and David Gerrard should have never seen the field. I'm glad head coaches don't share your opinion. You're right about the "personal philosophy" part being your own though.

Good post Frankster, none of us can be 100% sure of Brodies future success/failure...but Micjones wont give even a little credence to the good points made in favor of Brodie.

I dont know that i've ever seen Mj concede a single point about anything.

Stubborn as a mule.

He is definitely passionate about his convictions, but he'll admit when he's wrong. He's not always open minded, but who is? Solid poster that Mic Jones.

That's why I said Mj personally doesn't like him.

I don't mean, he knows him, and think he's a shithead.

I mean HE personally doesn't want him to be our QB.

That's not much of an investment for a QB.
Incidentally the Third Round now falls on Day 2.

The more you guys name drop Hall of Fame QB's the worse your arguments get.

Through Croyle's first 231 Passing Attempts:
6 TD
8 INT
1,250 Passing Yards

Through Montana's first 219 Passing Attempts:
14 TD
7 INT
1,506 Passing Yards

Yeah, they stuck with him to avoid burning that Third Round pick.
He certainly didn't earn it.
:rolleyes:

Don't give me the "NFL football is so esoteric" spiel.
The only thing I don't have access to is how he's performed in practice, OTA's, and mini-camps. I have seen him take the field though. I've seen every single performance. You really expect me to believe that information is less valuable than what he does in shells?

*Walks out of thread shaking his head*

I don't realistically see how the team will have a complete picture of Croyle at the end of the 2008 season. New OL, new system, inexperienced WR's. I don't think any young QB would do well in that situation.

That's a solid point but I don't think they're exactly expecting him to light up opposing defenses every week.

I'd imagine they're looking for steady improvement.

I think it was in the KC Star (or could be Warpaint Ill) that I saw that the writer had expectations similar to Jay Cutler's 2nd season.

3,497 yards - 20 TDs - 14 Ints.

I don't think asking for something similar to that is asking too much.

That was me. And yes, I think that's fair.

Oh my bad. Anyways, I completely agree with you. :thumb:

Yes, the table is certainly set for another offseason of excuses.

I'll go on record right now and say he wont make it through the whole season healthy.

He sure has gift for saying something simple real fancy. He seems to be very bright but seems to put much effort into showing it. Less his victim mentality he is a pretty solid poster.

He shouldn't be compared to Hall of Fame QB's.
Not where it concerns performance.

There's another reason why he isn't comparable...
HE WAS TAKEN IN THE THIRD ROUND OF THE NFL DRAFT.
The other QB's were #1 overall picks. You can't be this numb.

First 6 starts for each QB...

Tom Brady
10 TD's
5 INT's
1,273 Passing Yards
Game 4, 148.3 QB Rating
Game 6, 124.4 QB Rating

Tony Romo
10 TD's
4 INT's
1,651 Passing Yards
Game 2, 109 QB Rating
Game 3, 126.8 QB Rating
Game 5, 148.9 QB Rating

Marc Bulger
14 TD's
6 INT's
1,815 Passing Yards
Game 4, 131.7 QB Rating
Game 5, 100.5 QB Rating

David Garrard
5 TD's
2 INT's
1,044 Passing Yards
Game 5, 103.3 QB Rating


To summarize...
Each QB had better numbers. Each QB improved over time.
Each QB earned more time to develop.

Can we please stop using these QB's as examples for how we should handle Brodie Croyle?

There's nothing to concede. I'm ripping holes into these lame arguments about Croyle one by one.

Read on.

Thank you Flops.
I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.
If Croyle pans out... I promise you that I will eat crow with the same enthusiasm I've used to put together these arguments.

My word.

Again, it isn't personal.
It's based on my evaluation of his performance and response to pressure.
That's the only reason why I'm not fond of him.

I would love to see him win this job. I just don't wanna see it handed to him.
And I'm tired of readymade Croyle excuses.

I don't have a victim mentality.
Please don't ever lay that charge to me again.

I am a law-abiding, tax-paying, father who is living out his dream and helping others along the way. The fact that I tell the truth about this country does not make me a victim.

:ZZZ::ZZZ::ZZZ:

I don't think it is fair. Cutler got sacked 27 times last year over 16 games. Huard and Croyle went down 47 times. Unless the OL improves dramatically you can't expect a guy that is going to get sacked about 50 times to put up the same numbers as a guy that is getting sacked around 25 times.

We have already been there, did not intend to offend. Glad you are happy in life.

Wow... I guess everybody falls back on the emoticons when they don't have an argument good enough to rebutt.

First 6 starts for each QB...

Tom Brady
10 TD's
5 INT's
1,273 Passing Yards
Game 4, 148.3 QB Rating
Game 6, 124.4 QB Rating

Tony Romo
10 TD's
4 INT's
1,651 Passing Yards
Game 2, 109 QB Rating
Game 3, 126.8 QB Rating
Game 5, 148.9 QB Rating

Marc Bulger
14 TD's
6 INT's
1,815 Passing Yards
Game 4, 131.7 QB Rating
Game 5, 100.5 QB Rating

David Garrard
5 TD's
2 INT's
1,044 Passing Yards
Game 5, 103.3 QB Rating


To summarize...
Each QB had better numbers. Each QB improved over time.
Each QB earned more time to develop.

In case someone missed it...

Fair enough. Thank you.

Oh wowzers...you've been rebutted with good points by myself & others several times, all to no avail.

Debating you is often like trying to teach a cat to play fetch.

Oh man are we really giving Brodie a pass for next year? Come on.

I expect our O-line to be much improved.

IMO we have to draw the line somewhere. The numbers posted were good but not great. Let's see if he can achieve those.

I really hope this doesn't turn into a JP Losman kind of thing where you can see that a guy will never make it and it takes the team 4 years to figure that out.

I hope Brodie turns out to be good but in the end, I'm guessing that Deberg is right in that he won't make it through the season.

each also had a lot better line. Hell Croyle didn't even have our mediocre LT most of the time. He was running for his life.

What points?
That he should be treated like a former #1 overall pick?
That's absolutely ridiculous. The draft pick isn't as valuable and the contract is but a fraction of what a #1 pick is paid.

The commitment is never the same unless the player performs at a level that earns him more time to develop.

What other argument?
The one about the other Middle and Late Round picks who've been given time to develop? They earned it. I pointed that out earlier in the thread.

I hate to break it to you, but a dear friend of mine has a cat he plays fetch with quite often.

Is this a joke? I can't even get you to admit the odds favor Croyle not being a starting QB in the NFL.

Of course the odds are against Croyle becoming a successful quarterback in this league. Especially on this team.

However, (and the tendency to injure problem, notwithstanding) he has all the physical tools necessary to play the game at a high level. Due to my geographical location, I've seen him play in college and I've seen Cutler play in college. A lot. And, scoff if you wish, but I have to tell you that I would pick Croyle over Cutler in a heartbeat based on his ability to get the ball out, find receivers while under duress, and leadership (desire to win, putting it all on the line, etc.). Cutler is a whiny bitch whereas Croyle wants to win at all costs. That's why, when he was drafted, I thought it was a great selection - given the round, perhaps one of Herm's best picks, so far.

Sure, he may not work out. But, personally, I don't think he's had a fair shot to put points on the board. Mainly due to the patented Solari system of play-calling to the enemy's advantage, lack of protection, lack of running game, lack of clutch receivers, as well as the fact that he's being told that his first option is the two-yard dump-off.

In my opinion, some of you guys are seeing the glass half-empty.

FAX

If you want to go by the round he was drafted in, sure, statistically his odds are longer than guys from the 1st & 2nd...feel better???

What gets me, is that so many fail to see any potential at all...promising facts to the contrary be damned.

Yes, the doubters could be right...but i'm not riding the Boo-Hoo train until i know for sure.

Well, I figure I'll cast some positive votes in favor of Croyle

1. He'll be the most talented QB Gailey has worked with as an OC. Considering that assclowns like O'Donnell and Fiedler did OK under Chan, I think that bodes well for Croyle.

2. He has a hot wife.

3. Uh...SKIN THAT SMOKEWAGON!

I don't care what round he was drafted in. The odds are against him, period. It doesn't take a genius to see it.

Because of his talent level, the talent/coaching around him or a mix of both???

Its my opinion that he has the talent & level head to succeed, the talent level around him should be better & Gailey IIRC went 11-5 twice with Jay Fiedler & the perenially bad Dolphins O-line/run game.

We'll see soon enough.

IMO, the odds are against him because:

a) The OL.
b) Talent level around him.
c) Dick Curl is the QB coach.
d) Herm Edwards is the head coach.
e) He won't be able to take the beating and will miss games.