If that's the case... we all have them because I've more than once read on here that people hate AA because they feel they work hard for something and they're bypassed because of someone elses color.

I admit I have issues.

No, I would be embarassed to have a job for which another candidate was better qualified because the government felt I couldn't make it on my own and so set up a discriminatory practice in order to force employers to hire me.

You may note that I haven't said a word about AA.

I'm questioning why you wrote this: "We have to work double hard at almost everything from speech to grades to appearance to even working twice as hard to prove we're just as responsible or competent as our white counterparts."

You are right, I unfairly personalized my statement. I should have said "people who support or are supported by AA are looking for a hand out not a hand up".

As opposed to YOU (not you) setting up discriminatory practices to prevent you from hiring me?

:clap:

Have you ever experienced the same but from a reverse perspective? A majority black company that wouldn't hire a white person?

Even hypothetically, would that be just as bad in your eyes?

Donger, you're not black... you don't know how you have to have a smile on your face when you walk past a white lady so that she won't fear you snatching her purse. You don't know how you have to overtip to break the stereotype that not all black people aren't bad tippers.

Just leave it alone.

My hiring practices are the same as any other business person who wants to stay in business: get the best talent regardless of color or creed. Period. End of story.
I don't give a care what they do or who they are in their own time as long as they produce on mine.

Is it right to restrict the vast majority of business owners who do not practice any form of race discrimination in order to curb the few who do?
The market will take care of those few, if you don't hire the best talent you won't stay in business.

I'm going to hire the most qualified applicant no matter who they are. If I don't, I'm doing myself a disservice, or my shareholders or whomever's money I'm playing with.

I would oppose racist hiring practices and affirmative action for the same reason - they both keep me from fulfilling my fiduciary duty to get the greatest possible return with our owner/partners/shareholders' money. If I do anything other than hire the most qualified people no matter what they look like, I'm not doing that.

I haven't experienced it from ANY perspective (that I'm aware of).

Hell yes that'd be just as bad in my eyes and at the same time I can see it happening more blatantly than if it were to happen in a W company.

Do you really do this?

No, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. It seems that these stereotypes bother you, and it's logical to assume that you'd like to see them gone. But, you respond with "leave it alone."

That doesn't make any sense. How can these stereotypes be overcome if "we" don't know what they are AND are then told to "leave it alone"?

I'll remember this next time I stop at the gas station on the way home from work, in the bad neighborhood, and have to smile and greet people and hold the door for them, to break the stereotype that any well-dressed white guy is a racist.

Let's be serious here. You don't know what it's like trying to dance at weddings, or make sure reruns of Friends are being DVR'd correctly.

Hate to break it to you, but MOST PEOPLE, white or black, are born with JACK, (like me...Nothing.) and have to work very hard to get anything.
I have lived in many cities in this country, and there is no doubt in my mind that the playing field in areas with opportunities for the everyday man like you, and I(not the top 1%), is level. Under qualified people are given jobs in these fields when is not necessary. There are plenty of qualified minorities to fill these positions, but I don't think they bother narrowing them down because they just know they need x amount of minorities. I'm pretty sure, having lived in South Fla. this long, that it is mandatory for govenrment establishments here to hire x amount of Haitians. Most of them don't give a **** about anything, and there are plenty of people around here that deserve those jobs. Most of them african americans.

I swear it's like talking to a deaf mute.
DID YOU NOT SEE THE (NOT YOU)?

No one gives a shit about your hiring practices. Just because "you have black friends" doesn't mean that EVERYONE does. So I understand if they put an umbrella over the entire thing.

You have no clue.

You're being facetious but it'd go a long way to breaking that stereotype.

~I'm being dead serious.

I intentionally try to be nice to people when I'm there. I'm not sure it does anything though.

LMAO

Wow, that's nuts.
Do you look like Jules? Do you have a wallet that says 'Bad Mother****er"?

To paraphrase Chris Rock:

In any given classroom, there will be a few great students, a few horrible students, and the rest fall in the middle. The problem is that the black C student damned sure isn't going to be heading to the front of any line of job applicants. You know what happens to the white C student? Well, he's the president of the USA.

hell i'm white as a MOFO and i want one of those wallets.

OK so you're not being facetious because you intentionally try to break the stereotype. So you DO know where I'm coming from on some fronts. Now imagine if those black people owned all the businesses you wanted to work for, etc.... what'd be the best way to ensure you get a CHANCE at a job within one of their establishments?

We may be getting somewhere after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_..._Power_Company

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger

http://www.answers.com/topic/wygant-...on?cat=biz-fin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...rkers_v._Weber

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...0_0616_ZS.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of...J.A._Croson_Co.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarand...s_v._Pe%C3%B1a

Did you not see the part where I said "same as any other business person?"
I'll thank you not to hang the "I have black friends" label on me until you see me using that lame fall-back.

His comedy actually is true.
He touches & nails a few great topics in his comedy.

The best way to secure a job is to make yourself marketable by obtaining relevant skills and education.

To that end I worked through college (twice) and would be looking for jobs in areas in which I have related experience.

I guess the best way to ensure you get a chance at a job is to be professional and build up your qualifications.

Yes, I particularly enjoy the bit about going to the ATM. Did you like that one?

You're missing something, though. It's the fact that even though nearly everyone has to work hard, white people are still more likely to be hired simply based on skin color.

Where do you get your data? Sounds like speculation to me.

I've sat in on corporate hiring efforts where a black person was specifically sought out in order to satisfy OFCCP requirements. It felt funny talking with the candidate when you knew they were only being hired to placate a govt. regulation.

Funny you ask that... that's one of my favorite points in his stand-up because it's SO TRUE.

I'm not ducking that minority personal responsibility is key too. Actually I'm actively for it and have had numerous debates within CP concerning it.

Is it true? I just found it funny. Chris Rock cracks me up big time.

I've always agreed with that also...
We as minorities have too many options not to succeed today. If we fail it's no one's fault but our own.

LMAO

Whoever has the money has the power
we will all be answering to Arabie

I have interviewed and made hiring decisions before. Not for degree-required jobs, but for some other types of jobs that are unskilled labor basically.

I can tell you that I make a lot of visual judgments. You can tell a lot about people in the first 10 seconds of an interview just by whether or not they bothered to dress professionally, if they bother to sit up straight, make eye contact with you. If they are well-spoken, call you by your name, etc.

I've interviewed way more people who were total jerkoffs who were white kids from the suburbs. I think that when the black kid came in looking for a job for the summer or part time, he felt like he had to impress or he wasn't going to get it. I hired minority applicants all the time, it wasn't that way, but I felt like maybe that was their attitude.

In any case, I'll fill a role with a person who thinks they are at a disadvantage and will have to work hard and make it over someone who just comes in to an interview wearing everyday clothes, slouching and acting bored, already asking about pay raises and days off. Don't matter what color you are.

I think there's a kernel of truth in that if you meet these people I was talking to, ages 16-25 approximately, the ones who thought they were entitled to something were generally white.

First you get the money
Then you get the power
All I have in this world
Is my balls, and my word.
Balls and my word.

All I have in this world, ....

(the Ghetto Boys bring it home)

I like his distinction between wealthy and rich. To paraphrase again:

Wealthy people open schools and change communities. Rich people can blow all their money with a drug habit and end up singing Superfreak in Old Navy ads.

You mean where he says... that's Not Ted Koppel robbing me at my ATM... That's a N?

Yes that's true. I hate it when our people try to play victim when we're the one's raising hell. Just as they'd done with the Bill Cosby speeches, etc.

I hold US accountable to GROW UP and face reality. The media isn't building it's case against us... it's US.

I think he's talking about the part where a therapist should come on the ATM at 3am whenever you try to withdraw money, because nothing good is going to come of it. Then he goes into the bit about how the ATM won't even talk to you unless you have $20 in the bank and talks about the walk of shame up to the teller to withdraw 8 bucks and change from your account and the teller just pulling it out of her pocket and handing it to you.

And hell, there's no race involved in that. When I was a poor, stupid white college student, I lived that scenario repeatedly.

Hence...

"We have to work double hard."
"Whites (in general) are born with silver spoons".

Thanks for your example. It's valid for all levels of emplyoment.

Oh... vaguely remember that one.
I just remember his political points.
Will have to revisit.

www.bls.gov

It's funny -- the gov't actually overhires minorities compared to their % of population in the US. The general labor market, though, is well below.

I'll have to dig around my materials from last semester, but we did a pretty in-depth study on the hiring practices of public vs. private sectors.

<- Public Administration major

But, the kid in this example didn't KNOW that he had to do that, right? He assumed that the white guy interviewing him expected him to doubly impressive because he's black?

That's fantastic anecdotal evidence, and it's certainly interesting to note, but it's not what happens in the majority of cases.

This has turned into a GREAT thread.
Keep it going.

While I feel that racism in America certainly exists and that programs like AA are necessary, I don't feel that this statement is necessarily true everywhere in the US.

At my previous job, we had more than 40 people in our music division (a division of Paramount at the time) yet we had six Filipinos, one japanese, one from El Salvador, three Mexican, five African Americans, one Russian, so on and so forth. It was a very racially diverse mix and that was even more prevalent on the Paramount lot.

California (and Los Angeles, in particular) is very racially diverse and I don't think that race is seen as a "liability". At least, that hasn't been my experience or my wife's (and she's Asian).

Everyone has to work hard, regardless of skin color. The "Good Ol' Boy" network still exists in certain circles but I think it's just as difficult for whites, Asians, Hispanics or AA's to break into that circle. And if you DO want to break into that circle, you'd better have an extremely high-level college education (most likely grad school from an Ivy League or Stanford-type school) to even be considered for such a post.

Yeah. Whatever. :rolleyes:

Of course not. There will always be differences for every part of the country. However, because of the need for fair and equitable policies, it has to be applied everywhere.

I don't really want in the middle of this discussion, however....

2 years ago, I interviewed for a good job, and was told by the director that I was hands down the best applicant and had several years of better experience than any other applicant. He called back a week later and said that he was told by HR that he was to "hire an affirmative action qualifier" and wasn't going to be able to offer me the position.

I know my dad is routinely told by HR to diversify his staff in an ag related business. He said he's hired every black and latino that have ever applied for one of his positions. Zero. In the midwest, in an ag related industry, and corporate from a coast growls about the diversity. Women and a couple of token gheys will have to do.

In any job, the best candidate should win. period.



That said....if the statements in the thread starter are true, its a sad reality of how hypersensitive our society is becoming.

I heard that next year the 4th of July and Cinco de Mayo were being outlawed as discriminatory holidays....they discriminate against people who can only count to 3.

Your statements hold truth... But since the Good Ol' Boy network is mostly made up of an inner circle of white males, who do you think will be more apt to get IN the network?

That's it? Is what I wrote not correct?

Nicely done, good to see you are getting something from your classwork beside a grade.
As always, the truth is closest when you mix statistics with on-the-ground experience.
Good luck on your PA major, the country could use a whole lot of qualified PAs.

Let me rephrase that.

I think they had been TOLD that the white dude who interviewed them was going to be a racist, so they had to outperform everyone else just to be considered. Even though that was positively not the truth.

They came in with that misconception. But I like people who feel like they have something to prove. I hope everyone who ever works for me feels that way.

It's really hard to take you serious because you do your question asking tactic on everyone like you're really trying to understand.

Try making your point and then I can honestly respond... Stop asking me open ended ?s. You're not my shrink. I know what the problem is. It's not up to you to get it out of me.

Yeah, my professor for the class actually headed up one of the departments at the Bureau of Labor Statistics in D.C., so he had a ton of stuff for us.

I think the best thing I'm getting out of all my classes is that anything you want to know can probably be found on a government website somewhere LMAO. They keep records and statistics on freaking EVERYTHING. It's nutty.

Thanks for the well-wishes on PA, but I'm unfortunately not going to stay in that major. I'm doing undergrad for PA and then going to get my MBA. The public sector just isn't competitive enough with wages (although the job security is top-notch). I'll definitely have to start out in the public sector somewhere, though.

Well, let's strip this down a little bit. I don't think anyone here thinks that all races other than white male caucasian are disadvantageous. I think what most people are saying is that they feel black people are much, much worse off than any other race in particular when it comes to finding work simply because of that.

No they've been told to pull your freaking pants up... Stop wearing white t-shirts... speak clearly and don't use slang... smile... Say yes Don't shake your head or yeah or yup... wear a suit & tie... no baggy clothes... cut your hair... etc.

We're not taught that the hiring person is racists... we're taught that we have to bring our A game in order to impress (the white guy) so that he'll know we're not the thug but instead we're competent enough to do the job.

I haven't asked you a single question that is open ended. I've been asking you for your opinions because I do want to understand. If you don't want to help educate me, fine.

I think that would be good advice for any applicant, regardless of skin color.

Again, it seems like you are saying that blacks assume that whites are racist. Is that correct or not?

Bullshit

K... I'll give it a shot.
Just curious... do you have an opinion in any of this?

What are you really trying to find out?
~ Lunch time (1 hr)

Can someone get me Russel Simmons' address?

I would like to apply for Def Comedy Jam. I kid.



I've never known wutamess to be a supporter of the handout. For the most part, I've always respected his opinion in these discussions and thought he was very responsible and level headed.

I think my questions have been very straightforward. Do you want me to repeat them?

You say true. Too damn bad, strong PAs in the public sector appear on the way to becoming a rarity.
Still, who can blame you? Keep your head down and finish if you can, go all the way through the MBA without taking a year off.

No... we're saying that they're more apt to hire within their own (which is somewhat human nature). I'd be more likely to hire someone that looks like me. For all of you saying you'd have no bias I tip my hat to you.

It's not that I'm racist... it's that the cultural boundaries aren't there. It makes sense (racist or not) which is why AA would curtail it.

I see that as a positive thing. This was a retail job so anyone hired would have access to inventory and money regularly, and with little oversight frankly. I wouldn't have hired someone I wouldn't trust leaving my wallet on my desk while they were sitting in there.

it's kind of annoying that people would think I can't tell the difference between a thug and a good young adult through the course of the interview. If someone was a definite no, you know that within the first 5 minutes. but if that misconception gets them to take the position seriously I'll live with it I guess.

That's a very difficult question for me to answer because I'm not part of that network (and I'd never want to be - I don't care for that segment of our society).

But I think we can all agree that with each passing year, the barriers are being broken down a little further. As more and more minorities are attending college, there's more interaction and fraternizing of the people of different races, which in turn leads to more opportunities for everyone. As well as the breaking down of previous stereotypes.

There is some indication that the gov't is becoming more lenient with its pay grades to stay somewhat competitive, so who knows . . . I might do that. It really depends on how my wife's therapy practice is going as to what sector I stay in. I'm definitely not taking any more time off. I'm already 27 and took too much time off to begin with. I just hope I'm out of school by the time I'm 30, but it's not looking too likely at the moment LMAO

Thanks again :thumb:

Very true... until the playing fields are more level to where we don't need AA then I'm all for AA. (eating lunch from home)

I think people are inclined to be racists if they are unsuccessful and haven't put a lot of effort into trying to be. That goes equally for the high school dropouts in the inner city and in the trailer park too. It's a lot easier to blame other people than to examine ourselves. That's just how the human mind works.

You can succeed in the world if you want to. Yeah, some people face barriers that aren't fair. Some people don't have two feet and some people are blind, some people just aren't that smart. Some people don't have athlete's bodies and some people aren't good at math. For some people it's really difficult to learn a foreign language and some people have bad backs and can't do heavy lifting. Some people aren't mechanically inclined and some people aren't computer inclined.

Some poeple aren't perfect at everything. It's madness for us to claim that everyone is equal. Everyone has disadvantages unique to themselves. Some have more disadvantages than others. One of my best friends has been without sight since the age of 1. He could be disabled but instead he's gone through college and is out making a salary I wish I made.

The world will always be that way. You can complain about your circumstances, fair or unfair, or you can change them.

Yes Donger... he KNEW he had to do that in order to get the job.
(not saying MarKK) But if the black guy came in with the same clothes the W guys would've the hiring manager would just go with hiring by association.

It's wrong but it's understandable and the way of the world.

I can not rep you again or I would.

I can tell you with complete honesty that I've never hired on the basis of skin color.

I directly hired two African-American females, two Hispanics (man & woman), one white Jewish male, two Whites (male & female) and two Asian females during a 5-year stint and was involved in the hiring of many more non-whites via committee.

My criteria for hiring:

1. Is this person going to stay in the position for more than a year and is it worth my while to train them? Or is this job just a springboard?
2. Can this person handle the job (i.e. intelligence and aptitude)
3. Can this person handle stress?
4. Does this person have a passion for the job or is it just a "job"?


Once those things have been determined, I hire who will best fill the position, regardless of ethnicity.

I agree but I'm not complaining. I've always said that personal responsibility is the most important thing for ANY human being. Minorities shouldn't depend on AA for a handout, but it's our responsibility to educate ourselves in order to even be considered for employment.

~ Not a fan of the handout. Just AA until the playing field is more level.

I really hope that I never have to interview with a black guy. I'd have no fucking clue what to do.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts. Thanks.

Well Dane... AA isn't intended for you... It's the other 95% of possible (racist) employers.

See that's why we have to "impress". We're no different than a white guy. Why would you interview any different?

Actually I have a small story...
I was interviewing for a Tech Support position for a school in Noblesville Indiana... One of the first things out of the hiring guys mouth was, "You do know that we have no black students... How do you feel about that?" Probably no blacks in the county.

I didn't get the job and I'm sure it was because of that. Did I have a suit? Probably so. But I really don't care so to hell with it.

Just to show you that AA is needed.