Indeed. There comes a point when the person whom you thought you were married to, related to, or otherwise associated with clearly marks him/herself as different, thus severing all ties.

So your entire argument is based on the pretense that since everyone is physically capable of murder, we should not use capital punishment on anyone? Honestly, that's the most f'd up, backwards view I've ever heard. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions, period.

I guess I respect your opinion, but I'm thrilled yours is in the minority.

That's a good way to put it.

I agree with MicJones' general premise that life is sacred (though I'm a hypocrite because I kill bugs and spiders). I think my justification for the death sentence in cases like this is that the murderer violated this premise of sacredness (sacredity? sacredosity?), and therefore forfeits his right to expect the same. It's kind of a balancing of the karma of the universe.

Are you just saying quotes from the Compassion?

Adults? I have not heard an adult basis for your side of the argument. Keep trying.

Yeah, I think it's pretty pussed to value the life, of a body dumping shitbag.


I feel more sorry for the chickens that colonel Sanders hangs with.

He was afforded due process in that regard, but...
The death penalty denies him due process of the law altogether...
This man can never benefit from new evidence or new law that could possibly mitigate his sentence or overturn his conviction.

The spruce goose had a better take off then this thread.

Ala the Hindenberg.

Tough shit. The husband and wife he killed can never see their children again.

exactly. If the guy had gotten caught up in a situation that spun out of control and a life was taken, then yes, perhaps this man should have gotten life in prison. But they went on to kill two more people, the man was completely aware of what he was doing the whole time.

I agree with your balance statement 100%

Unless it suddenly becomes legal to kill people then I think he'll be ok dead

He's had ample opportunities for appeal, has admitted partaking in this crime and is not claiming to be innocent from what I read.

The 4 people he was involved in killing all had family and friends and lives that they'll have no opportunity for a single appeal.

This petition is false....it mentions only part of the evidence for the first killing, but overlooks the fact that they then went and killed his wife, who was uninvolved, and then 2 more individuals.

I don't give life.
So I tend to see it as much more valuable than the average person.
If I'm a pussy for that... So be it.

here is a death penalty case:

you pay to play.

Murder hardly needs to become legal for new evidence to come available.

Capable of error Albert. Error.

You don't give life to animals either, but I'll bet you eat them.

Probably so they can convince dumb sheep of people to take up their cause and not put them to death.. See look at me now, I am doing good.. Don't kill me because I helped brutally murder people..

I did answer the question.
I said there were other ways to achieve retribution.

That's a 1:1 isn't it?
The killing of animals to live is directly in proportion to capital punishment.

From this thread it's obvious that at least one guy has fallen for it. ROFL

I'm not a proponent of the death penalty as a general rule, but I think it definitely has a place when the victim of some heinous act continues to be abused, in some way, by the perpetrator. For example, people like the sick bastard who raped and murdered Jessica Lunsford, the little girl in Florida who is the namesake for Jessica's Law, should not continue to live.

This animal received sexual gratification from his act and can continue to get his rocks off in prison from the mental images of the event. The poor little girl thus continues to be victimized. Same thing with her family.

What sort of evidence? He has admitted to being present at all of the murders.

This isn't a case where DNA is going to prove something different. What do you think would ever change?

Yes.

Who knew that Truman Capote was among usth.

What would be your retribution? Nonsarcastic question by the way

Maybe nothing at all.
The point is, this action would be irrevocable.

I must have missed the part where he claimed to have never been a part of anything

We shouldn't kill to teach other people not to kill

By the way, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the "prefix" for this thread being "Life"

Life in prison.

I'm not sure how old this man is, but a 30 year sentence would certainly be retribution.

Would you feel that 30 years was enough if it was say, your father who had stopped to help these assholes?

He didn't kill the man. We know that much.

Maybe no new evidence comes available. The point is the corrective action would be irrevocable.

But three family's don't have a member of their families anymore. And we are going to put him up in prison and spend tax dollars on a man who killed 3 people. that is my point of view...by no means am I putting you down for your stance, this is a free country and you can believe what you want to believe.

I just look at it as, this man took 3 lives, destroyed 3 families...all for what? a broken down car and some drugs? There is no justification for what he did.

As were his actions.

I don't think the death penalty should be given out lightly. I'm ok with the fact that death penalty cases take years to go through the courts. But there are times when it is the right decision.

I hope therman doesn't hold me responsible for the blowback. I objectively am, for posting the decision. But I consciously chose to post only the words of the Court of Appeals with no accompanying opinion of my own. I think that was a fair step using a credible source.

Yeah, and the people that died as a part of all this will never had a chance at anything either, so tough shit, he should have thought about that before doing any of this shit

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to play this card.
You invoke my sentiments with this analogy...
And I think we all know that when an individual's feelings are involved they don't always make the most rational decisions.

If taking lives is wrong. It must be wrong across the board.

its what keeps me from killing people.:evil:

I wrote incorrectly, no he didn't kill these people that we know of, he might have pulled the trigger, he might not have. Perhaps his friend said I killed the one so I'm going down anyways, I'll take the rap for all three. We don't know.

My point to this is, he assisted in killing three people in cold blood, over a series of many days. This isn't a case of an accidental murder where things got out of control too quickly it is murder with the intent of murder, and he was heavily involved.

That petition is a joke. This guy makes too many "mistakes". Fry him.

Not at all. You said you value LIFE, and weren't inclined to make judgement on whether it could be taken, because you are not in position to give it. Yet you buy many animals to eat(which you can live without), but are in no position to give life to these animals. It's not a necessity, It's a way of humanity. Like Justice.

No I'm not a veggie.

I guess I'll never be able to put a soldier who kills in defense of his country, a person who kills an intruder to defend his family, or the state for executing a murderer in equal position with a person that helps murder 4 people.

call me crazy, but I don't feel its the same thing.


Mic, I know many people(catholics) who strongly oppose the death penalty and abortion and hold similar opinions to yours on this topic. I respect the opinion, but I don't agree with it.

Mic - You are arguing two different points. I understand that you are against capital punishment. Many people are. In general, I am for the death penalty, although I think it should only be applied in extreme cases, where the evidence is overwhelming against the defendant.

This guy was guilty of participating in four murders, one of which took place in a state that uses the death penalty as a punishment for these types of crimes. From the evidence I have read, this guy deserves what he is getting. End of story.

Fine. Then we will continue to disagree. I still think scumbags like this deserve to die. I will continue to feel this way no matter how much you say. I believe in repentance and compassion. However, I also believe there is a price to pay for heinous crimes such as this. I don't believe the guy deserves to get any more tax payer funded room and board. I don't think the death penalty is for everyone, but is deserving for the ones that commit heinous crimes.

Again, I can't argue that it isn't a fair sentence.
My argument is who am I to decide that?

We should all just hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

I'm not sure your argument of new evidence holds water in this case, MicJones. New punishments or treatments, perhaps. But in essence this guy is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, and what he's doing now is asking for mercy.

I think that reasonable arguments against the death penalty are:

1. General "life is sacred" mantra and it's somehow better to lock the guy in a dungeon than kill him.

2. Maybe we'll come up with some way to zap the guy's brain of the bad stuff and convert him into a productive citizen. (Still seems problematic to me that Charlie Manson can go get a job at Chik-Fil-A and not be traumatic for the victim's families, etc.)

3. Maybe the guy is innocent and new technologies or evidence will one day prove it.

#3 is a biggie for me. There are innocent people who have been executed, and that's horrific. Events of recent years have turned me against the death penalty in most cases for this reason. However, #3 doesn't apply in this case, and I'm not a huge supporter of #1 and #2.

I tend to agree with Mic. I've sort of come full circle on this issue over the last 10 years. I'd rather the guy rotted in prison.

As an aside, if he is given the chair, I'm not going to shed a tear for him.

Call me crazy, but I tend to see human life as infinitely more valuable than the lives of animals.

he was present at all of them. it sounds like the only leg the defense would have in that situation is 'i didn't know they were going to be killed'. that is just your word and the jury decides if they believe you.

i was friends with tim degraffenreid in elementary school real sad that he got tangled up in this shit, but i would still not sign a petition to save him or any of his "friends"

I believe killing someone in cold blood, let alone many, makes their lives about as valuable as the ground those animals walk on.

Who are you to judge? How can you not judge for human lives but you can make a statement like this? You're getting ridiculous now.

Me too.

Just not this guys life. I see it as less valuable.

At least I can eat the animal.

Tell that guy to enjoy his death. Too bad he abandoned his own family by committing these crimes. Makes what he did even worse. Not sure why his wife is so interested in saving him. Makes her a bad mother if you ask me. I wouldn't want that kind of influence in my kids life.

Remember Shannon Agofsky? The guy who robbed the Bank of Noel Mo? And murdered the banker? His life was spared and a couple of years later he killed a fellow inmate. He is now on death row where he should have been in the first place.

Humans have the ability to reason. Animals do not.
Carry on though...

You're right. I'm crazy.

good song

The Justice System is flawed.
And innocent people have been put to death.
This can be argued both ways.

I'm kinda the opposite. My hierarchy is:


1. Animals
2. (Close behind.) People I know and like.
3. People I don't know.
4. People I know and don't like.

Totally agree, his view is comical at this point.

which brings about a more suitable question....


Should Claythan start seeking out Prison Chicks who may be getting out in 2008, 2009, or 2010 for conjugal visits?


those women would be desperate as a wpi contributor or editor refreshing the fatchatter.com website seaching for new material

Animals do have the ability to reason, just not to the extent of humans

Nice try though

I am seriously starting to consider the possibility that he is related to Denise.

Yet your tune would change greatly if your family was brutally murdered, especially if it were from them helping somebody..

I hope he gets the death penalty and dies slowly. What a scumbag. And I am sure glad that you liberals feel soooo much compassion for death row convicts. Seriously, it warms my little heart.

Love your backwards...I mean...left wing thinking.

I agree. No doubt really that he's guilty, people are just asking for the state not to impose the sentence that the judge imposed?

I have no doubt that his attitude is different now that the day of reckoning for what he's done is approaching. But people like this don't deserve an exception to be made for them. He can't complain about the hand he dealt himself.

I had an . . . acquaintence, wouldn't call him a friend, interacted with him more than most, but everybody bagged on him [he was a Claythan type, not that I'm suggesting Claythan has this guy's bad qualities, but he was the doughy boy who reveled in being picked on]. When I was in college, he and a buddy of his called upon a guy who had advertised a car for sale, test drove the car with the guy, killed him and took off in the car.

This thread needs more cowbell.

FTR, this appears to be a jury imposed sentence.

I watched Alpha Dog the other day. This situation reminds me of that in a way. Even though I like the Frankie character (and I guess the real person if this were similar to how he was in real life), but he deserved whatever punishment he ended up getting. The guy knew what was about to happen and didn't do anything to stop them from killing an innocent kid.

I can see a good argument for abolishing the death penalty and if that ever happened I'd be ok with the decision. But having said that, as long as it exists this is the sort of case it exists for.

THAT is just plain sick...wow! It is scary to think that people think so little of people's lives...

So, let me make sure I've got this straight.
Animals can't reason like Humans do, but Humans and Animals are equal?
Gotcha...

Liberals have already pussified this great country of ours enough.

The death penalty needs to stay. In fact they need to go back to firing squad or something more painful than lethal injection.

Seriously, strike some fear into these murderers. Dont give them a painless death.

I never said they are equal and I don't believe that but you are sitting here telling people "who are we to judge the value of a life" and in the same breath can say without doubt that animals lives are different than human lives.

So I am wondering where you get the ability to selectively judge life?

That is exactly why we need the death penalty. And more of it, IMO. I think a lot of these scumbags know that the punishment won't be as severe as death and so they don't think of the consequences as much.

Tell that to Luther Plant. Oh, wait, you can't. Agofsky stomped him to death.