Except KC hasn't got the franchise LT yet. Still a lot to prove.

Our coach would kick the shit out of KC's coach.

So what do you call Albert?

AutumnWind would rather have a franchise DE than a franchise QB...But wait they do!!! JaMarcus, to da paddle boat!

You don't think Allen would still be the best player on this defense, no matter the system? Please. It was just another reeruned Carl Peterson deal, that's all.

Bullshit.

"Franchise" left tackles don't win Super Bowls.

Franchise pass rushers do.

Little to subtle there Dane, you're being sarcastic right?

Really?? DT got to AFC championship once and that was because of a franchise QB...

Not really Jared's MO for the Chiefs was great player, but drunk outside of it who has had 3 dwi's... I think a change of scenery was the only thing saving him from another one and a year suspension..

An unproven commodity.

Really? Where did I say that?

I can't tell, but I do think LT is a little overrated.

QB
DE
LT

Great D starts with good run D, followed by a good pass rush. On most teams, the bulk of the pass rush production comes mostly from one DE. Jared Allen is a crazy good pass rusher who could also play the run. He truly is a guy who accomplishes what he puts his mind to.

At the same time, JA is one DUI away for a year long suspension, IIRC. If not, at least 8 games minimum, since he already did what, the 4 game, which was reduced to two? Something like that?

Either way, Pass rushers come and go. It's much easier to find a pass-rusher than you would find a future potentional franchise LT.

Absolutely not.

James Harrison. Michael Strahan. Dwight Freeney. Joey Porter. What do they all have in common? Oh yeah, franchise pass rushers. And all Super Bowl winners.

Go back to the 90's with Charles Haley, who rushed the passer for the 49ers and Cowboys.

If you're going to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL, you need a franchise pass rusher, period.

A franchise left tackle is optional.

Really? Are you kidding me?

Take a look at the last 10 Super Bowl winners. How many of those teams even had a Pro Bowl tackle, let alone a "franchise" guy?

And how many of those teams had a great pass rusher?

wtf?

because we've had soooooo many great pass-rushers in recent years?

how many potential franchise LT's were drafted in the last 3 years, and how many franchise DE's?

In a playmaker's league, DE has become the 2nd most important position on the field.

The Chiefs D went from being roughly average to being a laughinstock, one of the 2 worst in the league, despite upgrading or staying the same at every position that wasn't Jared Allen.

Did nobody see last season? And yet they still want to undervalue a franchise DE?

We were worse off for this deal. Did we lose it? Well not really b/c our ****wit GM forced us to do it and we did as well as you have any right to hope for. However, all that did was mitigate the damage. Anyone arguing otherwise really does just look like a homer.

P.S. It's also pretty critical to remember that most folks had the Chiefs taking Albert at the 5 if they didn't get that deal done. So if you consider the trade Allen for Dorsey, it looks WAY shitter and probably more accurate than Allen for Albert.

Don't try to polish this turd, fellas. You'll just get your hands dirty.

The discussion is about franchise left tackles versus franchise pass rushers.

The QB position doesn't apply in this scenario.

Considering the fact that the Chiefs could have started Herb Taylor last year (who subbed for Albert with absolutely no apparent drop off), the Chiefs would have been far better off keeping Allen and starting Herb. Hell, Richardson played well at left tackle Saturday night.

Good, young left tackles just aren't as scarce as in recent years.

So far I have to admit, Minnesota has got the best end out of the deal.

The way I see it,

Charles=slipping on depth chart, no good

Morgan=slipping on depth chart, also no good

Our hope so far is Albert. Played well his first season. Can he be a probowler? thats the key, if he can do that, this trade will workout for both sides. If not, then Minny wins this deal. I like Albert and I think he is gonna need 3 years to develop. it takes time for LTs to come in and develop into really good players. So I think only time will tell. But I think Albert has a way to go before we can label him as a future probowl LT.

*Can we blame Carl for this move? Absolutely not. Unfair to Carl. Allen wanted to leave, what else could Carl do? This is the thing that really bothers me about professional sports, it seems as if alot of times players have more authority and control over managers in organizations. Shouldn't be that way. It should be the opposite. I wish they treated it like the real world where youre at your job and the managers of the company have the authority to decide what they want to do with you. If you don't like your position within the company, or whatever it is? Too bad..We own you, and if you don't like it theres the door!

It sucks. We witness it all the time. Gonzo was an example. We had two really good pieces in place, and got rid of them because they wanted out. So now were forced to build over again! Oh well.

Personally, I think the most important pieces for the Chiefs to add in next years draft will be a STUD pass rushing OLB and a stud NT.

Next, a legit #2 WR.

Followed by Olineman and LB's for everyone!

They're going to need to add those guys anyway and in any order possible. There are just far too many holes on this team for them to compete for a playoff spot and won't until they have them filled.

Super Bowl XXXIV - Rams - Orlando Pace - Won
Super Bowl XXXV - Ravens - Jonathan Ogden - Won
Super Bowl XXXVI - Patriots - Matt Light - Won. Note: Rams - Orlando Pace also played.
Super Bowl XXXVII - Raiders/Bucs - Neither LT's considered "Franchise" IMHO.
Super Bowl XXXVIII - Patriots - Matt Light - Won.
Super Bowl XXXIX - Patriots - Matt Light - Won.
Super Bowl XL - Seahawks - Walter Jones - Lost.
Super Bowl XLI - Colts/Bears - Neither LT's considered "Franchise" IMHO.
Super Bowl XLII - Patriots - Matt Light - Lost.
Super Bowl XLIII - Steelers/Cards - Max Starks.

Now some guys you may disagree that they are a "Franchise" LT, but the fact that the Patriots have kept Matt Light all that time, tells me that they value the guy.

Oh, puhleese.

The Ravens won the Super Bowl because of their defense. JFC. Tampa Bay, same thing. The Giants? Defense. The Colts actually? Defense.

Max Starks? LMAO

Max Starks is a ****ing bozo. And Matt Light is NOT a "Franchise" left tackle. The guy is solid but he was a freakin' 5th rounder.

The Patriots didn't build their team or offensive line around Matt Light.

You said franchise pass rushers win super bowls.. DT proves they do not.. JA and the studded defense of the Vikings fared no better..


Actually it takes a whole lot more then DE, OL.. Your guys bickering points are pointless..

You're a ****ing moron.

Name a me a team that won the ****ing Super Bowl that didn't have an outstanding pass rusher. A guy (or guys) that offenses had to game plan for each and every week.

You're not going to win SHIT in the NFL these days without an outstanding pass rusher.

Period.

I think we can blame Herm. We all know he got himself quite a bit of power over personnel moves, and pushed for the trade so he could have his "one glorious draft". His possible saving grace. Look how that turned out. Most of his players aren't doing so well.

Also, the league creates the players authority. Teams have let it be known that if a player is a workplace cancer, they do not care as long as it gives them a chance at a Superbowl. How many fields of work do you know of that don't care about bad references on your work history?

I still wouldnt underestimate the value a solid OT brings to your team. Every team needs one, they are the key component to your passing game. A quarterback will have a harder succeeding if he doesnt have the pass protection.

to win a bowl, you need all the right elements in place. An OT is an example, so is a defense, etc.

In the long run, I am a Chiefs fan. The team will be rebuilt, and IMO be rebuilt to championship form in the near future. That required CP and his cronies being shipped out. And that required the likes of an empty stadium that only comes from a 2-14 type team. To quote Herm... "It'll be OK!"

"Solid" is one thing.

"Franchise" is another.

For all these people that don't get it, the Chiefs had Willie Roaf, John Tait and John Alt in the past and never won a goddamn thing. So it goes both ways went bringing up Derrick Thomas.

Yeah, DT has all those rings.... or wasn't he a franchise pass rusher?

May I remind you that Jordan Black was once our starting LT, and our offense was considered one of the worst offense in the NFL?

I-65 is open for oncoming traffic.

May I also remind you that Damion McGinatosh was once the LT of this team, and he got abused more than a hooker got abused from her pimp?

First I think Albert is really good. He had one penalty last year. How many sacks has he allowed last year? 2? And he was only a rookie.

A decent LT will suffice. Doesn't need to be all world. We all know defense wins championships, and a stud DE is the most important part of a stud defense. I'm done arguing, not wasting my time.

His point is clear, so why play these types of games?

More than 2 I believe.

No. Allen is worse in coverage than Hali is. Playing him at 3-4 End would be a total waste of his talent.

I put that ****ing abortion of a forum member on ignore.

I wish he'd stop posting and go back to ****ing tranny's.

NTTATWWT.

That all comes down to balance.

why didn't the Chiefs win? well, many could argue that in the 90's they had John Alt yes, great defense yes, but, Marty schottenheimer couldn't win because he was so damn conservative and predictable on offense, afraid to take risks which is always a bad thing because that does nothing but make the oppositions job alot easier and knowing what youre gonna do.

Very few conservative teams win. In the playoffs it usually ends up being a bad thing.

Same thing about Vermeils teams. willie roaf heck of player, john tait solid player. great offenses..but why didn't we win? because the defenses were terrible. we couldnt stop anyone worth a damn. conservative defenses, "bend but don't break"..."Play back so we don't give up the big play"...."give the teams what they can get underneath, and hope for a turnover."

*Again, it comes down to balance. You still have to be pretty solid at every position, and things gotta be "right"

Honestly, because I think he is a clueless pr!ck who tries to shout down other people with different opinions.

His point isn't valid.

Assuming that the QB is the most important position on a team.... the reality is that a player that protects your QB is every bit as important as a player who rushes the opposing QB.

He's just too used to watching Chiefs QB's that aren't worth protecting.

I guess your dad is lonely?

Yep, your right that one individually player won the championship you ignorant douchebag..

Douche mccloud "franchise pass rusher > franchise QB"

****ing dumb ass... I like how you down-graded franchise pass rusher to just outstanding to try and win a point..

New England has never had a franchise Pass Rusher during their runs.. Just a dominant defense overall.. No JA or DT type player that you said is required to be there, but of course you will spin this some how like you always do because you are in fact a franchise douche bag..

Think I will go download some movies to piss the industry off and lose Dane some money..

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess Jonathan Odgen isn't considered a "Franchise" LT in your own words?

Oh, and check your facts. Matt Light was a 2nd rounder, 48th pick overall.

It's going to be extremely difficult to win in the playoffs, let alone the Super Bowl, without at least one game-changing defensive player.

Look across the league, from the Ravens to the Giants to the Steelers and so on. All of these teams have a Franchise QB, a good left tackle and a guy(s) that teams have to game plan for each and every week.

People here quote the Dolphins & Falcons success last year and hope the Chiefs can emulate that success. The problem is that both Miami & Atlanta had a guy that put up in excess of 16 sacks.

The Chiefs don't have that and until they have one or two guys that put up double digits, they won't compete for a Super Bowl.

Yeah, so they had best of both worlds and still could not do it you ignorant twit.. That does not go both ways, it only hurts your point.. It still took a franchise QB to get them to the afc championship game..

And the counter-argument is that Chiefs fans are too used to nutting themselves over O-line play, to the point of utter stupidity.

For example, how many people argued that we should take a RT, a right mother****ing tackle, with the #3 overall pick?

Here's the bottom line, if you get one LT and one pass rusher and you know that one can be only serviceable and one can be elite, the choice should be obvious: an elite pass rusher is a game changer, whereas an elite LT is a luxury.

As milkman has said several times, give me a franchise QB and a top ten D, and I'll show you a successful team.

Well, the Chiefs had Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, and a great defense, they never won either.

The Ravens could have had just about anyone at left tackle that year. The defense set a record for points scored.

My bad.

I still don't view him as a "Franchise Left Tackle". He's good, he's solid and he's reliable.

But he's not a "Franchise" guy.

I'll always say, and I won't exclude the importance of any position in football, to be a world champion in football, you have to have all the elements in place.

Your team has to be well balanced and solid on both sides of the ball. And you have to have solid players at all positions.

No QB.

With few exceptions, a team needs a franchise QB.

No one said that you could win a Super Bowl without a Franchise QB, numbnuts. Especially in today's NFL.

As matter of fact, I've been arguing that (as have a few others) this ****ing entire offseason.

And there are some mother****ing dumbshit members that don't think that Roethlisber is a "Franchise QB".

Unbelievable.

Well, I would have to respectfully disagree with you on that Matt Light is a franchise LT. The fact that he was the starting LT in 12 of the 14 games in his rookie year, the year where NE had 112.2 yards per game.

He was part of offensive line at left tackle that led the way for 133 yards on 25 carries (5.3 average) in the Patriots 20-17 victory in Super Bowl XXXVI over the St. Louis Rams. He was named to the Football News 2001 NFL All-Rookie Team in 2001.

In Super Bowl XXXVIII, he was instrumental in the Patriots' success against the Carolina Panthers' pass rush; the Patriots did not allow a sack to a very effective defensive line that featured Kris Jenkins, Mike Rucker, Brentson Buckner and Julius Peppers.

I just think he doesn't get the recongition that he deserves to get to be considered one of the top LT's in today's football.

If I could start an expansion team today and select one player off of any team, Roethlisberger might well be my selection.

That, and we didn't really have a "great playoff" coach on top of it.

Still though, had things been different, the 95 or 97 Chiefs team would had been the exception to the rule.

I guess it just wasn't meant to be.

I really think the '95 team could have and should have won the whole ****ing thing.

That was a team that had the defensive capabilities of matching up against Dallas.

won't disagree with you there Dane. we had that kinda player in JA but he wanted out. I won't blame the Chiefs for losing JA, because i understand it's the nature of the business, sometimes players can become unhappy and want out.

we have no other choice but to rebuild again, and hope Pioli and co..can find that "game changing type of player", especially on defense because i can't find anybody on this current roster thats capable of doing that. Its gonna take time, alot of patience, and some luck. We could use some of that to come our way. This team is rebuilding and its project that is currently under construction as we speak. Lets just be grateful we hired a man in Scott pioli who came from a winning organization and is capable of doing the job imo. Best move Chiefs made imo.

Oh I agree. Matt light is a very underrated OT. He deserves some consideration imo to be classified in the "top 10" Ot's in the game.

totally wasnt meant to be.

as much as i dont think marty is the right coach to have in the playoffs, i must admit he does experience alot of misfortune. things that happen that are beyond his control.

i.e., Byner fumbling on the Denver 2 yard line in the 86 playoffs, elliot missing 3 FGs in the 95 playoffs.

oh well i guess when you dont win, you really dont have any luck to go with it either. When it rains, it can pour.

Losing to Herm Edwards in overtime in your home stadium is more embarrassing than any defeat he ever suffered.

That was probably the most painful playoff game I've ever watched. Two coaches that coached the game "not to lose".

Pathetic.

When he lost to Herm in the playoffs, that pretty much is the icing on the cake that he isnt the coach to have in the playoffs. lol

sorry marty.

Without Question. I would consider Drew Brees up there as well.

Too old and too small.

Great QB.

But my next choice might be Rivers.

Too old? I wasn't aware that 30 years old was considered "Too Old." If that's too old, then I'd be curious to see what is Kurt Warner is....

While he is a tad undersized, you cannot question his skills. It's difficult to imagine any QB playing better than Brees did last year. He came within 1 long completion of breaking Marino's record of 5,084 passing yards in a season. He also lead the league in 4 passing categories and ranked in the top 4 of four others. And all of this with most of his primary weapons sidelined with injuries for significan stretches.

His quick release, excellent footwork, and uncanny feel for the pocket makes him a difficult sack, which translates into that he rarely put the Saints in a unfavorable down-and-distance scenerios.

IMO, Drew Brees is Trent Green, Jake Delhomme and Mark Brunnel.

And unfortunately, those guys don't win the Super Bowl.

Jay Cutler.

A top ten defense is more than just a pass rusher.

And, to be fair, the Pats have had great teams without a great pass rusher.

As others have pointed out, it is about balance.

The good news is that it is easier to find good pass rushers in the 3-4..... so, douche fartcloud should be happy soon.

You don't trade away franchise DEs or franchise OT's. You don't swap them. You keep both of them.

In the end, Dorsey fits this scheme better than Allen would. And, the Chiefs got Albert.

I like Brees a lot. Loved him coming out of college, and, prior to this last draft class, he was the last QB whom I really, really wanted the Chiefs to select.

So, I agree with most if not all of the qualities you've listed above. While he's not Manning or Brady, he's still damn good. It's just at this point in his career, he wouldn't be my choice.

I'd be looking for a little bit young guy, with more of a prototypical frame to withstand the abuse that what would almost certainly be a complete shit O-line would hand out.

Brees is a excellent QB whose skills would translate to pretty much any team/system. Your earlier point about taking Big Ben to start a team is kind of shaky to me. Yes, he is a proven. Yes, he has two rings. However, that D in Pitt is always tough (O-Line also) and they have a strong tradition. Outstanding player in many ways who is on the right team. Throw him on some team that needs to rack up the passing stats to stay in games and he wouldn't do quite as well IMO. I know this is an old thread and I didn't read all of it....the bottom line is that Allen is long gone and wanted it that way.

There may have been no need to switch the scheme if you kept Allen and had a DL of Hali/Tyler/Dorsey/Allen.

Saying the Chiefs got Albert for Allen isn't the complete picture because KC still needs to replace Allen and find a pass rusher.

Exactly, the JA deal still pisses me off. Also, I will always believe that Willie Roaf retired because of Herm ****ing Edwards idiocy towards the offense.

If the Chiefs had not traded Allen, the Chiefs would not have drafted Dorsey. I would have been fine with that, they may have traded down... which would have been great.

But, if not, they would have taken Albert at #5.

I think that they would have wanted to go to a 3-4 regardless.

I know he had a good year last year, but you look at the talent beside him and I think he actually took a step back from where he was in 2006.

At the time, I didn't want the Chiefs to sign him.

I didn't want the Chiefs to sign LJ either. I think they were both high risk players.

Time will tell, but I still think this is the best for the Chiefs..especially given the new scheme.

Oh, and if the #5 draft pick last year wasn't enough to keep the scheme the same, I don't know that JA would have prevented it either.

Willie Roaf actually blamed DV, believe it or not. He said at the time that if he hadn't had DV's difficult camps, he could have lasted a couple additional years.

Full of Fail

FULL. What do you expect though? We had to find a way to rationalize that bullshit somehow.

Hmmm. That would have been a tough call for Pioli & Co.

You're probably right, though. Even though the justification for switching to the 3/4 was A) Haley's respect for the scheme as an OC and B) Pioli's supposed skill at finding players who can excel in the system, that could have been a very nice front 4. It would have made the decision to move to the 3/4 much more difficult.

Put some solid backers behind that line and you have the beginnings of a good defense ... at least on paper.

FAX

I don't believe that shit for a second.
Road hardly had to practice under DV

You might need some ginseng or something, for your memory, jidar.