But Herm says it's just the odds that he'll eventually win his share of the close ones! He must be right, he's smart. He has a degree in chemistry!

Jesus MM, you're firing on ALL the right cylinders today! REP.

That mother****er couldn't get a degree in Advanced Merry Go Round Navigation.

Whoo ha-ha ha...Awww That's it, that's it!
http://www.indamixworldwide.com/html...rris%20Day.jpg

Merry Christmas to you and yours, Herm!

The dude from Miami is a FIRST YEAR HEAD COACH, same with Mike Smith, etc... the excuses are just that, lame ass attempts to find a GLIMMER of something worthwhile Herm has done. Gee, what an argument for the Herm supporters... "but his 32 defense is irreplaceable-whatever will we do?" How will we be able live without his total of 15 wins in three full seasons? Herm Supporters' argument is just blind homerism at it's finest.

A little good news...

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...wwhi122408.htm

Head coach Herm Edwards might be standing behind the Chiefs’ decision to inject youth into the roster in an effort to rebuild, but from what we hear, his job is far from safe. Edwards, a loser of 22 of his past 24 games, has some support in Kansas City from owner Clark Hunt, but the recent resignation of GM Carl Peterson — Edwards’ close friend — doesn’t bode well for the coach’s future. Regardless of whom Hunt hires to replace Peterson, the new GM will have plenty of reason to justify cutting Edwards loose. Besides his abysmal record, the coach has mishandled some of the team’s younger talent, especially DT Glenn Dorsey, who we understand has been used in a puzzling capacity during his rookie campaign. Also, Edwards repeatedly has absolved his coaching staff of any blame, instead pointing the finger at his players; in reality, the coaches are as much at fault as anyone for their 2-13 record. When all’s said and done in K.C., it’s very likely that the next GM will want to begin his regime with a fresh head coach in place.

I've said since the season started that he has been used wrong, but they should should have explained that more.

Why do they understand?

the 06 team was DV. Had CP let herm completely rebuild the team from year 1, perhaps we would be a winning team this year?

Gotta give him another chance. This team has gotten alot more competitive as of late. The young guys appear to be coming on.

06 and 07 were to drastically different teams from the one we field today.

I am just flabbergasted by the sheer idiocy of some fans who can watch Herman ****ing Edwards game day coaching and still think that he deserves another chance.

The guy is the biggest dumbass to ever stroll the sidelines, and has proven it over, and over, and over, and........

Yes, the Chiefs have been more competitive, and if not for the failures of him and his staff, they would have won some of those games.

It's good to see that KC fans are not the ONLY people who can see the big picture.

Prior to Herm, I never had a real reason to study coaching in the NFL. Now, I know more than I ever wanted to.
He's a fascinating case study in ineptitude, but I've had all of this "class" I care for.
NEXT!

I have a simple argument for the first point raised, that it wouldn't be fair given the state of the team when he got here.

He was hired knowing the circumstances. He was expected to take what we had, add some pieces to it, and succeed. It did not seem that, until we started losing, he claimed to want to go entirely youth, not just Vets in key spots with youth.

That isn't the point. The point is this is the NFL, you have to win now. If a coach cannot adapt their beliefs and styles to each team they go to, then they don't stand a chance. I am of the belief that the coach should come in and take what they have and make it work. Herm commented several times on the age of the team. He also realized it was a team built around the pass, not the bulldozing run game he wants to bore us to death with. He should have either immediately made this "his team" and started dumping old men for youth, or he should of picked up the phone and started making calls to get winners on the team to push it over the edge to victory. He did neither. He let the ship aimlessly wander the course until it shipwrecked itself in Indy, which wasn't "his" fault, that we can be sure of... oh god the futility. Do you remember the first ****ing half? Jesus, kill me!

The first year was a wash. He ran LJ into the ground, and did nothing to help this team. Had he tried to actually do something the first year and we were where we are now, last year, then I would have let him stay on for this season. But he does not get another season. He showed he is incapable of coaching at this level several times. I am not sure which is more sad, that Herm did not see the looming disaster, or that he did nothing to avoid it if he did see it.... all I know is we can do NO WORSE with a new coaching staff, what is there to lose? One or two more games? Herm might pull that off next year if he is allowed to stay.

Better to pull the trigger now than 4 games into the season next year when we are 0-4 and he is blaming Rocky Boiman, starting MLB, for the losses.

Prior to the great Carl Shit-Can of Aught-Eight, I think that in addition to trying to get a bunch of young guys who wouldn't question his judgment, Herm was also trying to set himself up for a long stay with the franchise.

Too bad, so sad; get gone.

Let it stop. Not another, its all DVs fault thread. Vermeil wanted to win. With the lack of talent being brought in by the draft we had to go into the FA market. Let's also not forget that DV's first draft we didn't have a pick until the third round. Too often CP was forced to concede that players we brought in by trades were going to have more value than a pick he would have wasted on Kenyaron Fox or Junior Siavii types. Has there been any head coaches who spent so much time in one job that have been helped out so little by the draft as DV? Herm has had three years on the job, and the talent level is nowhere close to being what it was when he took over. DV trusted perhaps too much in veterans. With the rookies we brought in I don't blame him. Its not like the trend hasn't continued with Herm at the helm. Is Donnie Edwards the same player now than when DV let him go? How did Napolean Harris turn out? Its not like we haven't brought in some dud FAs since Herm got here. Difference is we brought in more younger players who are a real reach to ever get to a level where they can be trusted to contribute on a weekly basis.

Here's something that Herm Edwards apparently hasn't learned. "The superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others." - Don Shula

What a great quote. I'm stealing it.

For me, it's not a 'blame game' on Vermeil; the situation that Herm inherited just was what it was. Herm has had 3 years to write his own show, and he and Carl did not operate wisely. It's not like Herm was the first new coach faced with a challenging task.
That's it and nothing more.

Carl Peterson — Edwards’ close friend?

ROFL lol what?

I'll keep making this same point until people stop making that argument.The situation Herm was handed was definitely not like the one handed to Vermeil, and definitely not even close to any other situation any other team like Sparano or Mike Smith, etc... faced on their respective squads.

Again, the Chiefs prior to Herm Edwards getting hired were the oldest team in the NFL and had about a 15% success rate in the draft for the 5 years prior. I'm pretty sure they were the bottom of the heap in both dimensions, which makes the Chiefs very uniquely bad. Worse, while most new coaches are allowed to blow up a limping team, Peterson insisted that Herm "win now". Need evidence of that? Explain why a team that is rebuilding signs Donnie Edwards, Ty Law, and Damion McIntosh--third contract players.

Keep in mind that when Vermeil came into town, he inherited a fairly young team with a lot of cap space (the Chiefs "rebuilt" during the Gunther Cunningham head coaching era). Vermeil > Herm. And Herm's gameday decisions probably don't earn him the right to come back, but we need to quit acting like he's the main reason this team hasn't rebuilt in 3 years. The situation Carl Peterson gave Herm Edwards was far worse than any situation I've seen in a very long time.

Bowener, you're assuming Herm Edwards actually had the power to make personnel decisions. First of all, Peterson was Herm's boss, not the other way around. It was Peterson who signed off on any personnel/staffing decisions.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/pla...rt=Nfl&id=1326
And this backs the pretty well-accepted notion that Herm wanted to rebuild earlier, but Peterson did not. No personnel decision is made without Peterson signing off on it. The head coach is accountable for gameday mistakes because the buck stops with him. The GM is accountable for personnel mistakes because he is the one who has to sign off on any of those decisions.

Even if we take your point in to account, that still doesn't do anything for Herm's god-awful field generalship.

$9 million spent on Herm says he's had THREE FULL YEARS, you Homers are in DENIAL.

Of course Vermeil is going to go with vets with the draft picks he kept getting. That last team of Vermeil still had more talent than any team that Herm has fielded. They still haven't put in an adequate replacement for Roaf and Shields. He also blew up what was the most successful part of the team. Herm took this team from day 1 and built it into his image. Ask Mike Solari what happens when you don't settle for a FG instead of trying to get a TD. Ask yourself if you knew the draw play was coming again on all those 3rd and 8s, that is until the game was out of reach. Herm put this team in a system destined to fail. The supposed youth movement rebuild was smoke and mirrors. We didn't rebuild, we tore down. Most of the wannabe's that were brought in for this year were never going to be a long term or even short term answer. Bringing in a young guy just because he's a young guy is just wrong. You bring in the guys who can help the team win. Pat Thomas and Tavares Washington are never going to help this team win.

Excuse me?!? Dick sucked ass as a coach?!? Seriously? The subject of my post was evaluating Herm and DV as a COACH. Herm is awful...an abortion of a coach. At least DV got the most of the talent on the side of the ball he was known for. Herm has done S*** with the defense...again...because he is horrible as anything except as a secondary coach.

Righhhhht. Because caring about W/L is a BAD thing. You play to play "the right way"...the Herm way. Losses shouldn't matter as long as the game is played right. :banghead:

I have never apologized for gameday decisions. I think he's a lousy gameday coach. But people want to blame him for personnel problems too and those are largely the fault of Peterson.

None of this matters. If I accept your premise that Herm was dealt a different hand then DV (be it both circumstances, players, power, etc.), then I still don't see how you see Herm as anything put horrible. IF I accept your premise in its entirety, then Herm is instantly fleeced for being one of the worst decision-makers (off the field in this case...but consistent with his on the field decision making) in the history of contract negotiations. He already had a job in New York and did not NEED the KC job. It's Herm's own damn fault for accepting the conditions under your premise. That is HIS failure. Not Carl's...not Lamar's...just Herm.

Herm makes excuses...and you and others have joined in.

That's probably because of things said by outside sources, primarily those from Tampa and New York.

The bottom line is that regardless of who is more to blame, it's over.

All over.

You're acting like this wouldn't have happened to any other coach. You really think that with Green, Priest, Roaf, Shields, T-Rich, Welbourn, Wiegmann, Gonzalez, Surtain, Kennison, and Wesley all getting old (hitting 30+) that any other coach wouldn't have had to tear down? And you don't think that a big reason why the Chiefs' offense was blown up was the fact that the Chiefs lost 4 pro bowlers (Shields, Roaf, Priest, Waters) and a borderline pro bowler (Green)? And when you argue that they haven't found a replacement for Roaf or Shields, who's fault is that? I would argue that that was Peterson's fault BIG TIME for not finding good, young backups for them through the draft between 1999-2005. So saying that this team was "tore down" ignores the fact that this team was going to self-destruct regardless of the coach. And that problem was made worse because Peterson insisted that instead of immediately blowing the team up, he wanted to limp on with used, aging parts.

Secondly, when you blame Herm for playing guys like Pat Thomas, you should ask yourself why the team was ever in a position to have over 15 holes. And how any team could reasonably fill 15 holes in one offseason.

Finally, I've never apologized for his gameday decisions and largely conservative coaching. So we agree on that.

You can't have it both ways to say that Herm has no control over the personnel and then say that DV ruined the team because of the personnel that he left them. I don't believe that any GM makes 100% of the personnel decisions or that a HC has no input. Recent history has proved that any coach given the double task of running the team on the field and putting the personnel in place has been less than successful. Any GM who is going to ignore the advice of someone who has spent years watching these guys on the field and who will be the first guy fired when things go wrong deserves what he gets. They are going to make their own call on occassion and go with their gut. If I had to guess then CP is somone who goes with his gut on draft day, and his gut has been very wrong. There is a level of control in any coach-GM relationship, but it has to be a partnership or it will run aground very early (see Oakland Raiders). In a healthy coach-GM partnership the coach is going to sign off on the personnel decisions.

Point to me a single time I EVER said Dick Vermeil ruined the Chiefs. I liked Vermeil. But there is no disputing that the front office, with some of Vermeil's input, whiffed on almost every draft pick and most free agent signings post 2000.

Does a GM make 100% of the decisions? No. But he signs off on almost all of them. And there have been reports that suggested that Herm wanted to rebuild, and Peterson did not. And when the head coach wants something and the GM does not, there's nothing a head coach can do about it. Because the GM is the boss of the head coach, not the other way around. You're absolutely right that the GM-Head Coach relationship is very important. But reports indicate that Herm/CP grew further and further apart, and I'm sure Peterson's reluctance to rebuild was a large part of it. I think it's telling that Hunt has been reluctant to back CP but he's been pretty vocal in his support of Herm. There are just too many stories circulating that lead us to believe that Peterson was making a lot of decisions that Herm disapproved of. And when a GM exerts that kind of power, there's nothing much you can do.

Point : Herm took over an old old football team with basically no defense, and had to work under a GM who saw no problem with that. And it's true that he's only had one real year of rebuilding during his tenure here.

Counter Point : Even if he had a team full of great youthful talent, Herm would still be a terrible clock manager, poor game manager, he'd still go to prevent defense and offense with the smallest of leads, and he'd still demand the use of an outdated Tampa 2 even without the players to pull it off.

___________________

This is why even if the Chiefs do pull off this rebuild, and end up with fantastic young players on both sides of the ball, Herm still must go.

Bullseye

To me, in reality, both Gunther and Herm must go.

Agreed

Nobody knows if Herm is staying or not. It will be up to the new GM, whoever he is.

Herm probably knew the condition of the team. Could he have anticipated that the GM would refuse to listen to his coach and not rebuild the team as he should, especially after the GM was known to have good relationships with his former Head Coaches? Probably not. This is yet another case of deflecting Peterson's mistakes onto Herm. Arguably, you're making excuses for Carl Peterson, which I think is far worse.

If Herm walked into a situation where he was given full resources to rebuild, then it was not a bad place to coach. For whatever reason, Peterson refused to extend those resources which made turning the team around almost impossible.

It's not real hard to connect the dots. A good GM will kick Herm's ass to the curb. A few looks at his gameday management skills will be enough for any competent man to see, he's certainly not very good. Add his record to that and I think the chances of Herm staying are slim to none.

Anyone who think Herm is a good coach should put on a Santa suit and kill themselves.

Bingo. Rep!

That's a given, but let's work Haitian Voodoo in our spare time to insure a greater probability.