See, this is just another red herring. How many playoffs wins has Ryan Leaf guided the Chargers to? Few people dispute that the QB position is the most important position on a football team. That doesn't mean any particular QB is a good or bad pick at any point on a draft board.

I forgot about all the success we've had the last 40 ****ing years. Thanks.

Should I be nice to a guy who's trying to say Matt Ryan has a huge arm...I don't think so.

Actually I think you have that backwards, and the real agent is just advising and his brother is his agent, but I could be wrong.

And here you go again with your stupidity. I said it was a valid question. I never claimed that the responses on either side were right or wrong.

But being a complete idiot and jumping on innocuous statements made by others seems to be what you do best.

It took them 5 years to put it together. It's taken us SIXTEEN (if you want to count the Joe Montana AFC Championship game). Good lord man!

And I said "exactly" because you know deep down that the Ryan Sims debacle HAS EVERY BIT the impact on Chiefs fans as Ryan Leaf, if not more so. Ryan Sims was considered to be the "safest" DT in that draft - Haynesworth had character issues, Wendell Bryant was a pothead, and John Henderson had back problems. Ryan Sims is EXACTLY the kind of player that people are clamoring for when they say they want Curry - SAFE. Well, guess what? Even the "safe" picks aren't safe.

The Chiefs didn't draft Ryan Leaf. Furthmore, Ryan Leaf isn't eligible for this draft. What happened in 1998 has pretty much zero bearing on the present, unless you're willing to admit that Mecca and Hamas are right and you're just scared of a Ryan Leaf-like scenario.

Live a little. We got Pioli! We got a young coach that was just in the Super Bowl. This is the best Chiefs offseason EVER! There's no better time than now to take a flyer on a QB. If he busts, so be it. I've been a fan for thirty years - it's time to take some risks.

Holy hell, good to see you post again!

Talk about red herrings...

I'm not sure how to even respond. That just didn't make much sense, sorry.

I'd rather have to draft 2 QB's in a 5 year span to get it right than be so afraid of one that I never took one in 20 years.

If I personally picked Sanchez it would be out of desperation. Not because I thougt he was the best player. Is that the way to build a winner?

I'm in my mid 40's and have been a Chiefs fan for all of those senarios you guys speak of. But a knee jerk reaction is not the answer either. I've also seen how that works out.

I realize you think the guy will get it done in the long run. I don't. That's the difference.

You want to keep throwing up the history of the Chiefs in my face as a valid arguement of what not to do. However, you skate the same way of evaluating the player you want. If you look at history, Sanchez will bust.

Does that make it 100% absolute that it will happen? No. But there is no QB that has ever been taken that has succeeded under these circumstances.

Not drafting a player like that doesn't make you scared, it makes you dilligent.

I hope I don't regret it.

This place is more toxic now than when I left. I didn't think that was possible.

It's not a valid question if the question raised is completely erroneous.

He's represented by the same people (Dunn) who represent Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, and a slew of other NFL QBs.

At some point, though, you have to kick diligence to the curb and take a chance. If you don't, you do the "prudent" thing every year and you never end up adding the pieces you need to win it all. EVERY QB, every year, has question marks, even Manning had them. He couldn't win the big game, they said. You just can't keep putting it off forever.

I could understand the argument that Sanchez is TOO risky if there were players on the board that had better value, but there just isn't. This draft SUCKS at the top - absolutely sucks.

1.) You, and many others here, are unfair in your evaluations of the Chiefs in the past 20 years. 3 times in less than 15 years, the team has been 13-3. I'm not saying that the team's been the cat's ass, but it hasn't been as bad as some of the people here make it out to be. Good lord, imagine being a Lions' fan.

The reason "exactly" made no sense is because you tried to apply a specific example to a general principle, and that principle wasn't even applicable. A bust at QB is the most damaging position to bust at.

You seem to be operating under a misconception. I'm not surprised by it, given the kind of posts that Hamas has made. I have no fear of taking a quarterback high. Last year I was pimping Matt Ryan as if I was his agent. I just wasn't on this board.

Every pick is a risk in some way or another and, especially at the top of the draft, every pick needs to be made based upon the individual player as opposed to the position or the 'safe' tag put on him. Isn't that the lesson of Ryan Sims? As for having Pioli, you and Hamas and company are going to have to get used to the notion of team specific "value" as opposed to position or BPA. If Pioli thinkgs a kicker has more value than any other player on his draft board, you'll be getting a kicker.

Going 13-3 because your team was built to fail in the playoffs isn't my idea of a good year.

So his brother is a liar?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/allt...hez-agent.html

It took Dallas 4 years with Aikman. Chiefs are going to suck balls next year and more than likely be very average in 2010 anyways. I want to get the player that will be cornerstone for the next 10 to 15 years. A coverage linebacker isnt the answer.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with having this opinion, although I don't agree with the characterization of Curry and you're wrong about the time it took Dallas. Aikman was drafted in 1989. Dallas became made the playoffs for the first of 6 straight times (and 8 of 9) by going 11-5 in 1991.

How many playoff games did those 13-3 teams win? Please, give us all a break. We're not being unfair to expect the Chiefs to win ONE playoff game in FIFTEEN years.

What? Deflecting by being purposefully obtuse is really unbecoming.

I'm not operating under any misconception. I never said you ARE scared of taking a QB.

By generally lumping me in with the people you don't agree with, you show that it's you that's operating under a misconception. Thanks for the lecture though.

It's almost like you don't even read the ****ing posts.

Well considering that Pioli released the best kicker in the history of the game when he was in his prime, it is obvious that Pioli doesn't value that position very highly.

Considering that until recently, Brady was one of the few highly paid players on that team, he does value the QB position very much.

Pioli pretty much values positions the same way the rest of the NFL does.

When ONLY wins in the playoffs will qualify as a successful season, sure you are.

It wasn't obtuse. A general notion about blown picks on quarterbacks vs. a specific instance of Ryan Sims.

Hmmmm....

Right, it must have been just me.


It had nothing to do with lumping you in with people I don't agree with for any nefarious purpose. I already know that how Belichick and Pioli work a draft. I was simply pointing out that you, Hamas and company will have to learn it, albeit with only the Pioli half in KC.

Yes. You got the roles screwed up and I didn't read the posts. More brilliance on your part.

This is a perfect example of what I mean when I talk about people needing to learn how Pioli and Belichick do things. Vinatieri wasn't released. The Patriots, in fact, franchised him the year before he left for the Colts. However, I don't expect that Pioli will be drafting kickers in the first round. The 'value' formula just doesn't call for it. I merely used it as an example.

When your team hasn't won a playoff game since you were hitting 4-footers in college, you tend to start to want that. It might be different if we had actually won a few of those games.

A "general" notion about blown picks on quarterbacks, supported by the specific instance of Ryan Leaf EQUALS the general notion that no picks are "safe", supported by the specific instance of Ryan Sims. Come on man, don't be that way.

It was just just you, unless you're willing to admit that you have a problem with reading and comprehension.

Again with the generalizations and again with the lecture. Give it a rest already. NOWHERE did I suggest that I WANT them to draft Sanchez. In fact, I never gave any definitive answer of who I want them to draft at all (other than that I don't want an OT).

I know too how BB and Pioli work a draft. That has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, so the "this is the way they do it, get used to it" argument rings very hollow.

The question about what hiring his brother demonstrates is valid, but because it goes to decision making,.


No, it's not, because he has a well-developed support system, and he has outside representation:

Case in point of what I was alluding to:



http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=218

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...nt#post5515773

That's fine, but it's a waste of successful seasons if you can't enjoy them.

Your logic here is terrible, and the resultant Ryan Sims example is meaningless as a result.


Ummm... let me just say that you might want to re-read your post. I'll leave this there.

Actually, it definitely does have bearing. Since you insist it doesn't, however, there's no sense discussing it further with you.

You made assertions is this thread. The assertions were wrong. This was gently pointed out to you by Doomy, yet you continued on about it. You were wrong. Admit it or STFU. It's bad enough that you don't seem to know a damned thing, but you can't even admit you made the obvious error? Sanchez DID, in fact, hire his brother as his agent.

Now, run along and let the adults talk. Come back when you can play nice.

I didn't see Doomy's post. I swapped the roles definitely, but those who were denigrating Sanchez were doing so on the premise that he hired his brother as his agent and his brother only, and that his brother was unqualified.

This isn't a Master P situation.

Furthermore, not only is Sanchez's brother a lawyer, but he is also advised by an agency that represents several NFL quarterbacks.

Thus, I refer to my prior assertion: claims about his lack of maturity or stupidity vis-a-vis that selection were, and remain, completely erroneous and without merit.

Ok, now you admitted your mistake. Was that so difficult to do?

As for the Master P comparison, as I stated earlier, I hadn't come down on either side of the equation. I merely noted that it's a legitimate question. Now, you feel comfortable about how it's been dealt with and, at first blush, I don't see any problem with the way Sanchez is doing this, but it doesn't mean that it's somehow off the table as a question, no matter what your opinion on the subject happens to be.

Dude, the entire premise of raising the question was done so on the belief that his brother was A) just his brother B) had no other training and C) Sanchez lacked other representation.

All were categorically false.

I presented this to you in link form, so that you could investigate it yourself. But like a true asshole, you continued on with your argument without seeing where it originated from, or its basis in reality.

If I say I don't want to draft Aaron Curry because he ****s tabby cats, it doesn't make it a legitimate red flag.

This kind of purposeful obtuseness and intellectual dishonesty is just sad.

I THOROUGHLY enjoyed this past season when my Hawkeyes went 8-4 and capped it off with an impressive bowl win. Even without trouncing it would have been an excellent season. Why? Because of expectations. I don't have any illusions of a National Championship or going to the Rose Bowl every year. Now that the Cardinals have made the SB, the Chiefs are in Bengals/Lions territory, and frankly, I expect more. No, I don't expect them to win it all right now, or even in the near future. But they need to win a SINGLE playoff game once every 2 decades for chrissakes.

The old "your logic is terrible" argument is a cop-out. Reminds me of me circa 2003. If you can't make an argument stick, just call the other guy a dummy. I'll leave it at that, I'm not gonna argue anymore about semantics.

It WOULD have a bearing, IF I was in the "we're drafting a QB at all costs" camp, but I'm not.

See, you've made an assumption about me, one that is wholly incorrect.

Oh, great, you've reverted back to child status. Shall we try again?

You made assertions. The assertions were wrong. Just because you made different arguments elsewhere, you think I should read those links and overlook what you wrote here. I don't agree.

And, as far as the specifics, your opinion does not equal fact. The FACT is that his brother is entering new territory. No matter what previous training he's had, this is a first for him. All the "yeah, but" crap in the world doesn't change that. It's still a legitimate issue to be brought up, whether you like it or not.

Um...no. Sanchez is 6'2" with an above average arm.

Sanchez will just be further behind the eight ball than even most junior QB's. He has to get experience, practice will only do so much. And then the point is can you get him that experience without killing his confidence.

True.

Think about this from Sanchez's perspective for a moment. I imagine his brother is a smart guy with Sanchez's trust and respect. If he came to me, said, "Hey, I can do this. I'll be advised by a real agent, and I can actually look out for YOU, not just my bottom line." it could be pretty persuasive.

Depends how you define legitimate.

Sure, bring it up. No problem. But it's an ancillary issue at best.

When arguments about the draft value of a player often center around his selection of an agent and his coach's "butthurt" (to stay true to the Planet lexicon), they seem pretty flimsy.

Lack of game experience. That's the one, true "legitimate" concern, IMO.

I'm glad you enjoyed the Hawkeyes season. It makes my point, although I do understand the frustration that people get when their franchise is struggling long-term.

It's not a cop-out. Your logic there IS terrible and it makes your attempt to bring the Sims example into it a waste of time. What more do you want said about it?


I never made that assumption, which means that you've made an assumption. And around, and around it goes. I think it clearly has bearing, irregardless of your position on drafting a QB. You insist it doesn't. There's really no reason to discuss it further.

I have never said he was a rapist. I did say he was arrested on sexual assault charges, but just another red flag that deserves rationalization and glossing over.

I hadn't brought that up today. Trying not to make that a part of my argument. Merely his lack of experience, his above average arm and his height are enough question marks to make me want to pass on him at #3.

The other stuff like ignoring his coach and his families advice, and the sexual assault just make me question his decision making... which was supposed to be his best asset.

I would say it's definitely something I'd bet most teams touched on in the combine interviews.

the agent deal, that is

I don't think I buy that argument.

I'm of the opinion that these guys either have it or they don't.

But that's just a gut feeling at this point in time. Just like my feelings on both Stafford and Sanchez, it will change by this time tomorrow.

What a screwed up draft to be picking #3.

Do you ever answer anything? Or do you just resort to empty obfuscation?

This is ridiculous.

The "questions" about Sanchez hiring his brother where based upon an entirely false premise. They are, by definition, illegitimate. He has outside advisers, he isn't flying by the seat of his pants.

I've never seen someone whose entire posting schtick relies entirely upon tautology, outside of Believer.

I'm a "child" because you say I am. You refute nothing. You speak in vagaries and offer no support for any claim that you make.

Sanchez hiring his brother is a legitimate concern because he his brother isn't qualified and he has no other help, even though he is and he does.

I don't know where you learned rhetoric--check that, you obviously didn't--but when people make claims, they support them with evidence. That's why we link posts here. That's why we seek outside sources.

Again, you must have a serious reading comprehension question.

A baseless question is not a legitimate one.

Mark Sanchez is an idiot for hiring his brother who is some guy off the street as his only representation is the same level of idiocy as "Aaron Curry ****s tabby cats."

Absolutely, and it might have been a stroke of genius on the part of Sanchez. That is entirely possible. As I noted, I don't see anything wrong here at first blush. However, it's still open to questioning. Hell, people make assumptions/evaluations even when players choose established agents.

Can you even explain to me what you think my logic is? At this point, I'm not sure we're even debating the same subject, but I could be wrong.

Are we not talking about the riskiness of players and the likelihood that certain players will flame out? Consider this a concession because I'm so confused now, I'm not even sure what the original point was.

Two separate times you said "you and Hamas and company". To anyone with any shred of dignity, that looks like you're lumping me in with them. Don't assert that that wasn't your intention when it clearly was. However, in the interest of not furthering this pissing match, I'm done commenting on it.

Even if his brother were an agent, I don't think it is wise to hire them. Agents need to be advocates, but also be able to distance themselves from the situation.

Doctors are told to never operate on their own family. The risks are too high, and their decision making is clouded by emotional connections.

Agents have to be pro athlete at the table, but objective away from it.

How objective would a brother be?

Also, it isn't just the one thing. It is a mixture of things.

It is blowing off Carroll and his parents when they advised him to stay in school. This is the biggest thing.

It is also hiring his brother as an agent.

And, even though he didn't get charged, the fact that he was even accused of sexual assault has to at least raise a question in your mind.

Again with the circular reasoning. His logic is terrible because it's terrible.

That's ridiculous. Please, offer some substantive evidence or get the **** out.

That's this dupe's schtick. Doesn't address the actual issues, lacks reading comprehension, disputes any and everything, doesn't backup assertions with details and/or evidence, resorts to name calling and generalizations, etc.

Here we go again...... at this point I feel like I'm picking on a reeruned puppy.

Who's Sanchez' agent?

Is he related to Sanchez? If he is, is this a potential problem?

Has he been a football agent before?

In all his years of experience as this agent, how has he done for his clients?

Read the posts. That's what you accused me of not doing even as you weren't reading them, remember?

Passin' By just sent me a PM that accused you of enjoying shark pron.

I'm sorry, Sensible, but this has raised serious questions about your character.

You don't ever wonder if a holdout could be about a player blindly obeying an agent holding out for another 100k in his pocket? How much happier is that extra half a mil going to make a player compared to getting to training camp on time?

I can't think of a better advocate for someone than a family member. I highly doubt he's going to try and screw over his own brother for an extra few K in commission by signing him to a bad deal, he's definitely no more likely to do so than John Q. Agent.

My god, the annals of sports history are littered with predatory agents who screw over their clientele for their own personal gain.

I'm sorry, I don't feel the need to read links.

Is he a lawyer? Yes.

What do most lawyer's do in their jobs?

Does he have outside advisers? Yes

What do those advisers do? Represent professional athletes, including NFL quarterbacks.

But yes, I'm sure that Nick Sanchez will just sign over Mark's soul with a big X since he has <del>no legal experience and no one else to fall back on for advice</del>

See: Scott Boras, Drew Rosenhaus, Hadley Engelhard.

Mark probably trusts his brother more than anyone else.. I don't see a problem with that.

Again, if it were ONLY that... fine.

But, it ISN'T.

I don't know this kid... all I can do is form opinions based on what I know of him.

He didn't listen to his parents or his coach about going back to school.

He hired his brother, and he was at least accused of sexual assault.

Now, that all fits together in my mind.

Perhaps these are three isolated incidents that don't show the full story. But, there are THREE things I am looking at here... not just one.

Clearly, he should have hired one of those guys.

Bob Sugar Rosenhaus only wants what is best for his guys. But that Nick Sanchez, not only did he get his law degree by stealing someone's identity, he's a greasier bastard than Billy Mays.

And again, the irony of your posts amuses....

I think this is a simple miscommunication.

JPB thinks its something that will raise flags with nfl teams(meaning its something they will want to investigate further)

Hamas you believe that once they investigate it they shouldn't consider it a flag, but that doesn't mean that every team isn't going to do that investigating and come to their own decision.

Because I'm offering specific and pointed evidence that counters your claims?

Yeah, that's really obfuscating and skirting the issue.

It's almost like I didn't reply that Nick Sanchez had a law degree, has an impressive resume, and that Mark hired outside advisers with a litany of experience.

Only, I did.

But yeah, I'm the one who is muddying the waters, because you say so.

And you're not using circular reasoning in any way shape or form.

I, for one, can't wait to read the next scouting report for Sanchez:

Negatives: Hired his brother (an attorney) as agent with Dunn (respected agent) acting as an adviser.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=105

There's your assertion.

Because you didn't answer the questions, dipshit.

Moves the goalposts when pinned down, subtle insinuations that you are too stupid to understand his point of view, etc.

However, he's not a dupe. He's a Steeler fan originally from Fatchatter.

If you're referring to me, I don't move the goalposts and I'm not a Steelers fan. Hell, I haven't needed to even think about moving the goalposts. The blatant errors and lies of the "Gang" makes it unnecessary.

That didn't help. I'm still reeruned. Sorry. Forget it.

He "has outside advisers" NOW, because of the firestorm that he ignited when he hired his brother. The brother hiring was reported at least as early as 1/26. The next two days the press was filled with negative commentary about that. He THEN announced he would be adding David Dunn to his team.

"USC and Mission Viejo High standout quarterback Mark Sanchez didn't have to go far for a sports agent: He's being represented by older brother and former Yale QB Nick Sanchez, a business litigator with Theodora Oringher Miller & Richman in Costa Mesa. Mark is the first client of Nick's new sports consultancy at the law firm. Mark has decided to skip his final year of college eligibility and enter the NFL draft, where he is expected to land a lucrative contract ..." http://www.ocbj.com/industry_article...76&aID2=133541

"Mark Sanchez, the former QB for USC, is being represented by his older brother Nick Sanchez. Nick is a business litigator with Theodora Oringher Miller and Richman in Costa Mesa. Not only is Nick a family member, but he has no experience in representing professional athletes in contractual negotiations.

Do you really want to jump into that role with a family member, who some believe could be the No. 1 overall pick, before you have any experience in the industry? To Nick’s credit, he has a lot under his belt in a variety of other legal practice areas, and seems to have a strong educational background. I still have an issue with a sports agent being a family member." http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...o-be-his-agent

"Mark Sanchez, former QB for USC, is being represented by his older brother Nick Sanchez, a business litigator with Theodora Oringher Miller & Richman in Costa Mesa. Not only is Nick a family member, but he has no experience in representing professional athletes in contractual negotiations. Do you really want to jump into that role with a family member who some believe could be the #1 overall pick before you have any experience in the industry? To Nick’s credit, he does have a ton of work under his belt in a variety of other legal practice areas and seems to have a strong educational background. I still seem to have an issue with a sports agent being a family member." http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2009/...-be-his-agent/

"Mark Sanchez has reportedly hired his brother, Nick Sanchez, as his agent. Nick was a quarterback at Yale, earned his law degree at USC, and works as a business litigator for Theodora Oringher Miller & Richman in Costa Mesa. According to the Orange County Business Journal, "Mark is the first client of Nick's new sports consultancy at the law firm." ... This move might answer nagging questions about who actually encouraged Sanchez to turn pro. Trojan coach Pete Carroll strongly disagreed with the move, and it seems that there was also dissension within the Sanchez family. In a fan poll on latimes.com, the majority of voters thought it was the wrong call." http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/allt...hez-agent.html

Followed-up by:
"UPDATE: Nick Sanchez confirmed the arrangement to LA Times reporter Gary Klein. He does have some experience in the sports world, as his firm represented the Angels in their fight with Anaheim over the Los Angeles name issue. David Dunn, an experienced agent who represents Carson Palmer, will be retained as an adviser." http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/allt...hez-agent.html

No, you're not reeruned. I'm sorry if I seemed a bit (or a lot) abrasive with you. I'm just tired of Hamas' idiocy and, if I let that annoyance spill over to my posts to you, I apologize sincerely. You certainly had done nothing to merit such a thing.

It's all good.

Sure thing, egami.

Ok, I'll bite. WTF is an egami?

What is this, if it's not answering a question?

I've had enough of you, you shit-felching one who sucks the penis. So how about next time before you come on here to do nothing other than stir shit, you jump taint first into a woodchipper, and as your asshole and scrotum get ejected in a pink mist you can say that you aren't even in a woodchipper, and that it's wholly unsubstantiated because you say it is.

Squat **** an augur, die in an acid bath, or kill yourself by suffocation in between the jelly-filled thighs of your 800 lb. bed-ridden ape masquerading as your wife. I'm sick of your ****ing bullshit.

Still not answering the questions.... what a shock.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL


JPB raises questions

HJ answers questions

JPB claims he didn't answer questions

And you wonder why I think you are tautological. I offered a clear refutation of your baseless claims. The fact that you aren't able to offer an acknowledgment is not my onus.