Sure. The entire 2000 draft other than Brady was a wipeout. They had less time than they wanted to prepare for it with all the silliness involving Parcells, but still.

And the Pats have had some lousy 2nd round picks, to be honest. Bethel Johnson and that other useless burner WR come to mind.

Some FA CB signings have turned out to be jokes.

The list goes on and on. Nobody is perfect. Not even close.

Jesus Christ. You make the ridiculous assumption that, first, you're going to get something good with a late round pick, toher than just crossing your fingers and praying, which is basically what late round picks are.

Second, if there is someone he REALLY likes at 5th or 6th round, it's not that hard to trade to get a pick at those levels.

Finally, you just completely discount what Vrabel can bring you off the field on the LONG SHOT HOPE that you get yet another KID who just might not totally suck. It's silliness.

Just so you understand where I land in the "pecking order" here, I'll tell you I don't know as much about football as most here do.

I don't know who those guys are, but if they did and could play as well as you infer, then no, I wouldn't.

Yeah, because 7 more is really what you want. Every team should have 40% of its roster be 1st and 2nd year guys...

:rolleyes:

(I realize you're not saying this, I'm directing this at the other geniouses on here)

And that's my point.

It's silly to not question anything he does just because he's been part of 3 Championships.

Acutally, Patriots fans desperately hope that this is one part of a two step process to bring Peppers or someone here. We're REALLY thin at linebacker now!!

If they like those guys enough, they can move up to get them. It's not like it's hard to get a late round pick...

Let me point out something else --

nobody on here, despite much discussion about the topic, has much feel for how much 3-4 versus 4-3 the team wants to play, or how well they project their current players in filling those roles.

They want to go to 3-4, and yet your roster isn't exactly loaded with guys who are well suited for that. The transition is a multiyear process. OLB is one of the tougher positions to fill.

Vrabel gives them someone who can do the OLB thing, and can help the younger players that can fit into that system do that. He has experience both at OLB and ILB, and can play and help other players with both roles.

What the hell 5th, 6th or 7th round pick can do any of that? Answer: none.

He's hit on one or more almost every year. Tell me you would have won without the contributions of those players.

Now we've given up another pick. We had 7 to start, presumably traded one of them for Vrabel, now we're using one to trade up to get a play we could have had if we just kept our pick.

Fantastic. A rebuilding team with 5 draft picks.

Who's he gonna teach to play linebacker?

Derrick Johnson, who's probably not going to be re-signed?

Demorrio Williams, who's also likely to be told to walk once his deal is up?

He's a rental, and it's pretty likely with a roster this shallow that half of the players he's "mentoring" this year aren't going to be on the roster next year.

He was great for you guys, he fit the system. Part of that system is being smart enough to know when to cut a guy loose because he's got nothing left to give. I think Belichick is ****ing brilliant for getting anything for a guy that isn't an every-down player, who wouldn't have been on the team in 2010.

Wow. With one hand you giveth, and with the other you taketh away. He's great with late round picks, yet stupid about giving them away.

The answer is that you're wrong. Brady is a once in a lifetime. Koppen in the 5th and CAssell in the 7th. David Givens and Tully Banta-Cain in the 7th worked out ok, but once they went elsewhere they were shwon to be not all that special after all. Other than that, nobody who has been much more than a warm body comes to mind. I could be missing one, but that's 5 picks out of (yes, I counted) 38 picks in rounds 5-7. So maybe a 12% chance of getting someone who isn't just fodder.

err...what? You can trade from next year, or package some garbage late round picks to move up. What is with this unholy fascination with late round picks?

And your team is already TOO YOUNG. Do you not get that part? You need guys who understand how to win in the NFL to show some of these guys hwo to do it.

He's not just teaching linebackers. TG is worth more off the field than just to the other two TEs on your squad...

I agree, for now. Ask me again in November if one of our OLBs goes downs. Depth in August isn't the same as depth in November/December.

One of the few times (or only time, as I think about it) I must disagree with you, Mr. el borracho. Vrabel makes sense. Things have to change in the locker room and on the practice field as much as they need to change on the field of play.

I'm certain that Pioli knows that Vrabel is a dead linebacker walking. Therefore, his rationale for the trade has to be related to Vrabel's ability to translate the coaching staff's demands down to the player level. In a situation like ours, to have a trusted, experienced, proven player in that role is extremely valuable.

When you think about it, we don't have anyone like that. All we have are guys who have been part of a team that hasn't won much of anything except the adoration of the fans.

I remain confident in Pioli's decision-making.

FAX

Just to establish that you need to get a bit more of a grip, here's the history fo Patriots drafts under BB/SP

And note how often the PATRIOTS trade late round picks for NFL players.

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2008 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="4%" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td width="7%" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">1</td> <td align="center">10</td> <td width="25%" align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Jerod Mayo</td> <td width="7%" align="center">LB</td> <td width="22%" nowrap="nowrap">Tennessee</td> <td width="35%">From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78), for a 1st (7) and a 5th (164)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">2</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">62</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Terrence Wheatley</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Colorado</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">69</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" nowrap="nowrap"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">78</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Shawn Crable</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Michigan</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From New Orleans (see above)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">94</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Kevin O'Connell</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">QB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">San Diego State</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">129</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Jonathan Wilhite</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Auburn</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">153</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Matt Slater</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">UCLA</td> <td>From Tampa Bay for a 5th (160) and a 7th (238)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">160</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">164</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" nowrap="nowrap"></td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">197</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Bo Ruud</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Nebraska</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">238</td> <td colspan="4" align="left" nowrap="nowrap"></td></tr></tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2007 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">24</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Brandon Meriweather</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">S</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Seattle for WR Deion Branch</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Oakland in exchange for WR Randy Moss</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">127</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Kareem Brown</td> <td align="center">DL</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">171</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Clint Oldenburg</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">OL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Colorado State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">180</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Justin Rogers</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">LB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">SMU</td> <td>From Arizona for T Brandon Gorin</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">202</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Mike Richardson</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">208</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Justise Hairston</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">RB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Central Conn.</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">209</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Corey Hilliard</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">T</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Oklahoma State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">211</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Oscar Lua</td> <td align="center">LB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Southern Cal</td> <td>From Oakland, along with a 3rd in 2008, for a 3rd (91)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Miami as part of trade for WR Wes Welker</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">247</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Mike Elgin</td> <td align="center">C</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Iowa</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2006 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">21</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Laurence Maroney</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Minnesota</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">36</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Chad Jackson</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Florida</td> <td>From Green Bay for a 2nd (52) and a 3rd (75)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">86</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Dave Thomas</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">106</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Garrett Mills</td> <td align="center">FB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Tulsa</td> <td>From Detroit for a 5th (145) in 2005 and a 6th (206) in 2005</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">118</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Stephen Gostkowski</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">K</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Memphis</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">136</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Ryan O'Callaghan</td> <td align="center" nowrap="nowrap">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">California</td> <td>From Oakland, along with a 7th (230) in 2005, for a 6th (175) in 2005</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">191</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Jeremy Mincey</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Florida</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">205</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dan Stevenson</td> <td align="center">G</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">206</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Le Kevin Smith</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Nebraska</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">229</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Willie Andrews</td> <td align="center">DB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Baylor</td> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2005 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">32</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Logan Mankins</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">G</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Fresno State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">84</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Ellis Hobbs</td> <td align="center">CB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Iowa State</td> <td>From Baltimore, along with a 6th (195) in 2005 and a 3rd in 2006, for a 2nd (64)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">3</td> <td align="center">100</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Kick Kaczur</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Toledo</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">133</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">James Sanders</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">S</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Fresno State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">To Arizona as part of trade for CB Duane Starks</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">170</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Ryan Claridge</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Nevada-LV</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">230</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Matt Cassel</td> <td align="center">QB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">USC</td> <td>From Oakland, along with a 5th (136) in 2006, for a 6th (175, from Green Bay)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">255</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Andy Stokes</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">William Penn</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick

</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2004 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">21</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Vince Wilfork</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DT</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Baltimore, along with a 2nd (41) in 2003, for a 1st (19) in 2003</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">1</td> <td align="center">32</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Benjamin Watson</td> <td align="center">TE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Georgia</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">2</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Cincinnati in exchange for RB Corey Dillon</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">63</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Marquise Hill</td> <td align="center">DE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">LSU</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">95</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Guss Scott</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">S</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Florida</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">113</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dexter Reid</td> <td align="center">S</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">No. Carolina</td> <td>From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 7th (239) in 2003, for S Tebucky Jones</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">128</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Cedric Cobbs</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Arkansas</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">164</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">P.K. Sam</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Florida State</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To Pittsburgh in compensation for RFA Rodney Bailey</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">233</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Christian Morton</td> <td align="center">CB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Illinois</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2003 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">13</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Ty Warren</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas A&M</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Chicago for a 1st (14) and 6th (193)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">36</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Eugene Wilson</td> <td align="center">DB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Illinois</td> <td>From Houston, along with a 4th (117), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">2</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">45</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Bethel Johnson</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">WR</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas A&M</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Carolina for a 2nd (50) and 4th (120)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">117</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dan Klecko</td> <td align="center">DT</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Temple</td> <td>From Houston, along with a 2nd (36), for a 2nd (41) and 3rd (75)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">120</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Asante Samuel</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Central Florida</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Denver for a 4th (128) and 5th (157)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">164</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Dan Koppen</td> <td align="center">C</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Boston College</td> <td>From Tennessee, along with a 6th (201) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">201</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Kliff Kingsbury</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">QB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Texas Tech</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 7th (243), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">234</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Spencer Nead</td> <td align="center">TE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">BYU</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">239</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Tully Banta-Cain</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">California</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From New Orleans, along with a 3rd (78) in 2003 and a 4th in 2004, for Tebucky Jones</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">243</td> <td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Ethan Kelley</td> <td align="center">NT</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Baylor</td> <td>From Tennessee, along with a 5th (164) and 6th (201), for a 5th (154) and 7th (225)</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2002 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">21</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Daniel Graham</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Colorado</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Washington for a 1st (32), 3rd (96) and a 7th (234)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">65</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Deion Branch</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Louisville</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">117</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Rohan Davey</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">QB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">LSU</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Denver for a 4th (131) and a 5th (144)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">126</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Jarvis Green</td> <td align="center">DL</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">LSU</td> <td>From Green Bay for WR Terry Glenn</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">237</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Antwoine Womack</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Virginia</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Dallas, along with a 5th in 2003, for a 5th (168)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">253</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">David Givens</td> <td align="center">WR</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2001 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Richard Seymour</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DL</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Georgia</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">48</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Matt Light</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Purdue</td> <td>From Detroit for a 2nd (50, from Pittsburgh) and a 6th (173, from San Francisco)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">86</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Brock Williams</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">CB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Minnesota (NE trades a 3rd (69) to Minnesota for a 3rd (86) and a 4th (119))</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">96</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Kenyatta Jones</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">South
Florida</td> <td>From San Diego (NE trades a 4th (112) and a 5th (139) to San Diego for a 4th (96))</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">4</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">119</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Jabari Holloway</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Notre Dame</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Minnesota (see Round 3)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">163</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Hakim Akbar</td> <td align="center">S</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Washington</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">180</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Arther Love</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">South Carolina
State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Detroit (NE trades a 5th (149) to Detroit for a 6th (180) and a 7th (216))</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">200</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Leonard Myers</td> <td align="center">CB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Miami (Fla.)</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">216</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Owen Pochman</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">K</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Brigham Young</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">From Detroit (see Round 6)</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">239</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">T.J. Turner</td> <td align="center">LB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Michigan State</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table nowrap="" class="chart" bordercolorlight="#98A7B8" bordercolordark="#506074" width="100%" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="3" bordercolor="#506074" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="6" align="center" bgcolor="#133059">2000 NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">1</td> <td colspan="5" align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">To the NY Jets in compensation for Bill Belichick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">2</td> <td align="center">46</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Adrian Klemm</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Hawaii</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">3</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">76</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">J.R. Redmond</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">RB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Arizona State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">4</td> <td align="center">127</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Greg Robinson-Randall</td> <td align="center">T</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Michigan State</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">5</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">141</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Dave Stachelski</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">TE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Boise State</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">5</td> <td align="center">161</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Jeff Marriott</td> <td align="center">DE</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Missouri</td> <td>From St. Louis for DE Mike Jones</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">187</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Antwan Harris</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Virginia</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">6</td> <td align="center">199</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Tom Brady</td> <td align="center">QB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Michigan</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">6</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">201</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">David Nugent</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">DE</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Purdue</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">Compensatory pick</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td colspan="5" align="center">To San Francisco from Philadelphia</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">7</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">226</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">Casey Tisdale</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#eef0f3">LB</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3" nowrap="nowrap">New Mexico</td> <td bgcolor="#eef0f3">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">7</td> <td align="center">239</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Patrick Pass</td> <td align="center">FB</td> <td nowrap="nowrap">Georgia</td> <td>Compensatory pick</td></tr></tbody></table>

For Vrabel to be the team leader, a couple vets will have to go, maybe more. Waters, Gonzalez at least.

Which is a great plan when you have a hole here and there to fill, or need someone in a complementary role, or as a special teamer.

But when you've gone 6-26 over the last two years and you can count the talented players you have on both hands, you need all the draft picks you can get.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:

I understand and value what he'll bring to the locker room NOW.

I'd have no problem with this had we signed him as a FA.

I just don't agree with the idea of a rebuilding team giving up picks for an aging, part-time player in his last year.

The Vrabel Trade
 

I know this may be a stupid question to ask, but if the Chiefs are moving to the 3-4 defence as their base defence next year, what are they going to do with a player like Glenn Dorsey? Right now in my opinion, he is a player without a position to play of this team. He just doesn't have the body type to be asked to pack on the pounds and move into the nose tackle position. Tank Tyler is hugely more suited to pack on the pounds and move into the space eating nose tackle to keep the opposing offensive line off the linebackers in a 3-4 scheme. We might as well try trading Dorsey at this point to a team like Tennessee, since they are looking for a replacement for Haynesworth.

Veteran leadership is nice, and all, but you have to have some talent in place before it can be led.

If it's a 7th rounder, whatever, but the overall shift in scheme and the lost opportunity to try to get a player capable of being around for more than two years is pretty disheartening if it's much more than that.

He's a shell of his former self! I'm so excited!

Flush him down the toilet.

Exactly.

"It's still the guy with the most war stories who has the most impact and influence and has the power to set the tone."

"I think one of the lessons Belichick learned when he was coaching in Celveland was that the big-name players don't always make the best fit. . . . The players who were signed before the start of the 2001 season were all players brought here for specific reasons -- some for specialized skills, others for leadership, still otehrs fro a winning kind of attitude, but all because we were putting together a team, and tehse were some of the elements that were missing."

"Some examples: We acquired Bryan Cox, a veteran linebacker with talent but also a guy who brings an X-factor we needed for attitude. . . . He also brought in Anthony Pleasant, a defensive end he had drafted originally in Cleveland and a player he knew very well, one who would give us some veteran leadership on the defnsive line."

As coaches, we definitely felt we had substantially upgraded the team from where it had been in 2000. We didn't come in saying we had one of the most talented teams int he league, but Coach Belichick made sure all of us knew that we would have a team that was extremely strong mentally."

"After the workouts the players would talk to the coaches about responsibilities and also become use to the verbiage that we would be using. It was all preparation for the season and these guys wanted to do it. All it takes is a couple fo leaders to show the way. If one player told the others, 'Hey, I had a great meeting with Pepper', the next thing I knew there were three or four guys in my office."

Won for All by Pepper Johnson with Bill Gutman.

Pepper is currently the Pats, err, TE coach I think. He was DL coach for a stretch, and was with Belichick as a player with the Giants and Browns.

Maybe the Chiefs will run some crazy ass hybrid that the NFL has never seen.

NFL teams have multiple leaders, and Waters and TG are on the other side of the ball.

Seriously, have you read a single book on building a team? Go get Won for All or Management Secrets of teh New England Patriots or Patriots Reign or something to get some appreciation into the BB/SP system.

You're overly focused on talent. Do you think you mgiht draft ONE OR TWO defensive rookies THIS YEAR for that suck-ass defense of yours? Do you think having someone like Vrabel show him how to conduct himself on a path to NFL success might be slightly useful?

Do you think your ENTIRE roster will be flushed?

Fine -- do it your way. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers will continue to crush your squad as you focus exclusively on talent and ignore the other variables that are critical towards building a winning NFL football team

I don't think Waters is going to be thought of as a team leader after what's been going on here...our team is full of soft players..

Personally when I saw the trade when I woke up today the first thing out of my mouth was "Scott Pioli thinks our team has no player leadership"

Amno, that's great and all, but you still had some talent prior to that, regardless of the 5-11 record.

You had a franchise QB, 2 decent WRs, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, etc.

We have Dwayne Bowe, Branden Albert, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Flowers. That's our current core.

This team needs talent for the leaders to lead.

You woke up sometime after 1:30 today? Damn.

You overrate 5th and 6th round picks as well.

And Vrabes can help you with more than just one player. He can help your entire squad start walking down the path of winning.

You guys are incredible. The value you put on late round picks is truly mind-boggling. You're already fielding the kiddie-squad. You think another 22 year old drafted in the late rounds is "THE Answer"? Yeesh.

Says the guy who's team scored a first ballot HOFer with a 6th round pick.

:evil:

I would tend to agree, though I don't know about Waters' situation all that well.

Vrabel brings intelligence, toughness and leadership. I think a roster full of young pups could use all three, to be honest.

But if you want some long-shot 22 year old that isn't likely to be on an NFL roster in 3 years and won't add anything short or long-term, that's up to you guys I guess.

When we become a 3-4 team I'm not sure Glenn Dorsey will even be a part of that core.

Yeah, but it was a stroke of lightning. Pats trade those picks coming and going like they're water.

He would be right.

Seriously, how the **** could Waters and Gonzalez try to back Herm?

The only reason is because Herm gave them a country club atmosphere.

If it's a 6th round pick I'm not saying anything bad about it, but if we give up our 3 for Cassell I'm going to have a shit fit.

Brian Waters is like a big mouthed self important leader and I've never considered Gonzalez a team leader, he's been a great player but I don't think he's "a leader" by any means.

Tony Gonzalez idea of leading is thinking about what's best for Tony Gonzalez.

I've read Patriot Reign twice.

What the Patriots did in 2001 can't be used as a comparison. They already HAD TALENT. They weren't starting from scratch.

I'm not suggesting we ignore these other variables, but without some talent, it means nothing.

The chances of you finding that talent in the later rounds are REMOTE.

And you underrate what toughness and intelligence can get you. The Dolphins are NOT that talented. They just aren't. But they improved 10 games in part because of intangibles. One of those intangibles was a weak-ass schedule, but the Patriots and Jets had almost the same weak schedule and couldn't win more games than the 'phins. Part of that was ancillary stuff like injuries, etc., but don't ignore intangibles in the NFL.

This isn't the NBA where the team with the best 2-3 players wins every playoff series.

I agree. We had more talent than you. We also had more team leadership than you.

Hell, you guys have NONE on the defensive side of the ball. ZERO. Zip, nada. You think you don't need leadership on the defensive side of teh ball? You're insane.

And you wonder why your defense flat sucks? It's more than talent. It's youth and lack of leadership and alot more besides.

You want to focus on TALENT exclusive of all else. That's absurd. It's TEAM, not just talent.

We haven't had a defensive leader in a decade man.

The Dolphins "improved" because they only beat 2 teams with a winning record in 2008. They "improved" because they added several of "Parcells Guys" through trades and free agency. They "improved" so that the owner could sell the team for more money.

My guess is that they're no better than .500 in 2009.

There is no one answer for this team. It's utterly bereft of talent outside of a few players who aren't even a good fit for the new system that's in place. If we drop a 4th rounder for a guy who can provide two or three years of diminished production, at most, it's ****ing ridiculous.

There's a place for leadership, but I would rather upgrade the talent significantly first rather than trying to sprinkle some pixie dust on the turds who currently make up the team. You can do both, but my hope is just that we added the pixie dust for a reasonable price.

And they're going to fall right back off next year. Who cares about the Dolphins?

And you haven't had a half-decent defense in a decade either.

Coincidence? I think not.

I agree. But they still showed 10 games of improvement, and it wasn't just luck and a weak schedule.

No, I don't underrate toughness or intelligence.

I just don't think that 1 year of Jesus Vrabel is the answer to our problems, especially when there's a damn good chance that the majority of the players he's mentoring will be sent packing. Vrabel can "lead" the charge right out the door.

He's a 1 year rental. I don't see his "influence" carrying over for 3-5 years when this team is competing for a championship.

We give up 7th for Vrabel = anyone seriously complaining is a ree-tee-ard

We give up 6th for Vrabel = perfectly acceptable

We give up 5th for Vrabel = ehhhhhh

We give up 4th for Vrabel = WTF? No.

We give up 3rd for Vrabel =

http://i41.tinypic.com/2wp3xvl.gif

A major part of it WAS luck and a weak schedule.

First, they started out with the Wildcat.

Then as the veterans began to play together, the team improved.

The problem is that in 2010, they'll be back to square one.

An old, old team and very little youth on the roster.

I'm not saying yay or nay till we see what was given up...either way I expect alot of lower tiered cheap moves as opposed to 50 million for 1 guy.

First, if the team currently is a bunch of turds, then Pioli will likely cut alot of guys and be assembling from scratch. If not, then he'll keep a fair few players.

Either way, the team you see in 2009 will have the nucleus of the team going forward into 2010 and 2011. The team that wins tomorrow is being formed NOW. You need to show them how to get from the piece of crap the Chiefs currently call their team to a team that is "big, tough, strong, and competes for championships year after year", whcih is the BB/SP motto.

And you are going to spend one or more relatively high picks on the defnsive side of the ball. Thsoe guys are your future too. And they need leadership too.

I agree luck and a weak schedule did play a significant factor. They won't win 10 again.

But +10 wins isn't just luck and weak schedule. They won 1 freaking game last year. ONE.

The Dolphins beat two teams with winning records. Two. They paid for a lot of FAs and signed a game manager to get up to that Carl Peterson era of mediocrity.

When they go 6-10 next year, people aren't going to be as impressed with that core.

I hope we can be, like, the Oakland A's of the NFL.

I don't see much chance of the pick you gave up being on the team in 3-5 years.

Who knows. Maybe you gave up a 4th or something, which completely changes the complexion of this discussion. But mainly, I think it's a low pick and more likely than not you gave up very little to get someone who can help start rowing your team's boat in the right directon.

And you have no idea, and will never know, what influence Vrabel might have on the younger players that helps carry over 3-5 years down the road.

:shrug: 6-10 is probably about right.

But you're all missing the point I'm trying to make anyway, so forget it.

Night all.

Just please tell me Amnorix you don't think we're trading the 3rd pick for Cassell.

And people aren't understanding the anger over the Vrabel signing. Most of it stems from the move to a 3-4 which totally misuses our #5 overall pick from last year. To us, that seems ridiculously inflexible and hopelessly myopic. Whatever happened to fitting the scheme to suit your players.

Guys like Tamba Hali aren't world beaters, but he can give you 6-8 sacks from the left end position in the 4-3. That has value. Glenn Dorsey has Warren Sapp type ability in a 3-4, but he is too small to play the nose, and too short and too important to play the end.

Those guys are worth something, and if we are flushing their talents due to such a strong committment to a scheme which is no better than any other, I question the judgment involved in such move.

We went from a cover 2 coach to a 3-4 regime...pretty much every front 7 player Herm Edwards picked is now going to need to be replaced.

And that's what angers me.

Tomlin kept the 3-4 in Pittsburgh even though he's a Dungy disciple.

People need to realize that schemes are roughly equal. There is nothing in a 3-4 that makes it intrinsically better than a 4-3. So, if you have 4-3 talent, but no 3-4 talent, why waste that talent?

It just doesn't seem logical.

Well I don't think we should run cover 2, that scheme is outdated.

I don't like the Cover 2 either. We should just run a base 4-3 with elements of Cover 1 to augment for our lack of a rush and good corners. It fits the abilities of DJ, Dorsey, and Hali

I just feel sorry for Vrabel. He is being forced to come from the best run franchise in the NFL to this shit hole.

It might just be me but I don't remotely care about Hali or DJ anymore they've had enough time to prove themselves and haven't.

I second this....


Does anyone remember saying "scrap the whole damn thing and start over?"
It seems that was the chant last year on chiefs planet. Now that its happening people are freaking out, wtf?????

Most of you probably don't care, but if you want to see a little bit of what Vrabel's about, check out this link: www nfl com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80747dba

I am ok with Cassel, Stafford, Sanchez, whoever. So long as we get one.

I dont want us to trade the 3rd pick for Cassel. What if we traded picks with the Pats in the first round though?

3% of my concern is about those two players.

97% is about Dorsey.

That's worth our 2nd-7th round picks plus a first rounder next year.

Think about that.

Warning, Will Robinson!!!

You might want to back up just a ding dang dimply darn moment there, Mr. Mecca. Our team has been coached by the most ineffective, ignorant, impotent, infantile, inept, inane, and imbecilic loggerheaded lumpenites ever to carry a whistle.

We don't know what we have. Especially on defense.

FAX

http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/...ome&position=2

Patriots trade defensive leader Mike Vrabel to Chiefs
Startling swap
By Karen Guregian
Saturday, February 28, 2009 - Updated 41m ago


Mike Vrabel was one of Bill Belichick’s favorite players; that was no secret. He was one of the few Patriots [team stats] who could actually get away with being a bit of a class clown, and teasing the coach on occasion.

Vrabel was also one of the Pats’ most beloved and recognized players, having been a member of all three Super Bowl championships and making the Pro Bowl only a season ago.

That’s why the news of the veteran linebacker being traded to Kansas City was met with a sizable sense of shock and sadness yesterday.

“We’ve lost perhaps our best all-around football player. Defense, offense, special teams, Vrabes did it all,” Tedy Bruschi [stats] wrote in an e-mail. “His intelligence and on-field adjustments cannot be replaced. This team has just completely changed.”

Vrabel acknowledged the trade last night via e-mail, but declined to comment.

With Vrabel gone, and perhaps free agent safety Rodney Harrison [stats] opting to retire, the leadership dynamic on defense certainly will change.

Former Patriots linebacker Steve Nelson was completely taken aback when apprised of the trade.

“I guess that means they’re happy with their young outside linebackers. I don’t know. You’ve really caught me by surprise. He was really a great player for them,” Nelson said. “He was a real leader . . . that’s kind of a stunner.”

Vrabel was shipped to the Chiefs in exchange for an undisclosed draft choice. The popular outside linebacker was in Kansas City yesterday undergoing a physical before the deal was completed.

On the Chiefs side, it’s understandable why general manager Scott Pioli, who formerly ran the personnel operation in Foxboro, would want Vrabel’s veteran presence on his defense. Vrabel provides an immediate injection of the “Patriot Way” Pioli has been emphasizing and trying to implant since he took the Chiefs job.

So what gives from the Pats’ end? Might this be a precursor to another deal with KC involving Matt Cassel? And who is going to replace Vrabel at outside linebacker?

With the Pats hampered by Cassel’s $14.65 million cap charge thanks to his franchise tag tender, the club had to make room for yesterday’s signings of running back Fred Taylor [stats] and tight end Chris Baker.

The 33-year-old Vrabel was in the final year of his contract. He was expected to make $2.2 million in base salary, with a $1 million roster bonus, and count $4.3 million against the cap.

It’s possible KC could wind up as Cassel’s eventual landing spot but, for the time being, it appears the Vrabel trade was made to clear some immediate space.

Harrison, who is still undecided about his future, summed up his feelings in a few words.

“It’s business,” Harrison responded via text message, when asked his reaction to the Vrabel trade.

Nelson agreed, but still couldn’t fathom Vrabel being dealt.

“If it’s a matter of cap space, those are the difficult decisions teams have to make,” Nelson said. “But Vrabel is one of the guys I would think would be untouchable as far as, just (knowing the defensive) scheme, his versatility, his production. He might not have had the same production this year as he did last when he went to the Pro Bowl, but he played well at the end of the year. It’s just unfortunate you can’t let Vrabel retire on a team he should retire on.”

Vrabel did have an off-year by his standards. After his Pro Bowl season in which he led the team with 12 sacks, he had only four in 2008, while finishing fifth on the team in tackles with 62.
Click Here

While the linebacker denied having a shoulder problem during the season, a source close to him revealed Vrabel may now need surgery to repair the problem.

As for who will take his place, Pierre Woods is the likely candidate to play one outside linebacker spot opposite Adalius Thomas. The Pats also have 2008 third-round pick Shawn Crable, as well as recently re-signed Tully Banta-Cain.

I don't think any amount of coaching is going to make Tamba Hali better, he just isn't very talented.

well i said that off the cuff. i didn't know where new england's pick was. maybe they could send us cassel and one of their picks to switch in the first.

in a way, it's superior to just selecting Stafford or whomever at #3. You get a QB, but in this case you get to pick again late in the first, plus again in the second or whatever else they send back to even it up

if you are religiously devoted to the 'value charts' then it won't make sense, but on a level it does

You act like Jimmy Johnsons draft trade chart is actually relevant. The Chiefs hold a pricey choice in the first round in a year that isn't exactly stacked with elite talent.

Pittsburgh already had a championship Defense in place while the Chiefs have a pile of shit that happens to collect on the field when the opposing offense steps on.

Oh great another "the draft chart is dumb" guy.

You may be right about him, Mr. Mecca. Or he may have been coached terribly, or he may have been fighting injuries, or they may have screwed with his head, or hell, they may have ruined him forever for all I know. I'm convinced that Hali isn't playing up to his full potential - whatever it is.

The point is that, over the past 4 years or so, I've seen enough of our guys leave the Chiefs and become valuable and valued contributors for other, far more competitive teams than we are to believe that we shouldn't keep a weather eye out for individual improvement once a new staff gets ahold of them.

FAX

Matt Stafford has a hell ofa lot more upside than Cassel could ever think of.

You trade for Cassel, you get him and the 23rd best player (thereabouts). You aren't going to save much money, and you are getting a QB with less long term upside.

Quality>Quantity

that is fair enough.

you go with whomever you feel is the better long term solution at qb. hit on the QB and no one will even remember the details. if pioli and haley think that guy is cassel, i will go along for now. if they just pick stafford outright i will take it too.

The chart isn't dumb, just needs updated. For the note, I'd rather the Chiefs took a chance on Stafford or Sanchez (preferably Sanchez) than trading for Cassel, but a trade like that wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

It'd be pretty close to the worst thing ever...