so you're saying it was our coaches and their play calling that made him slower then he was at LSU?

Dorsey wasn't any slower than he was at LSU, unless the extra weight slowed him down. He was used improperly. God didn't intend for him to butt heads with guards all day. He was intended to get on their outside shoulder and blow past them.

It's sort of like asking Peyton Manning to run the option.

Thanks for entertaining my questions, Claythan!

Now you can impress your hubby with football knowledge. ;)

I hope he chimes in with something clever here. Because I feel I'm already pretty knowledgeable. I just have questions from time to time.

Yeah but just think of the look he might give you if you're sitting there watching a game and say "Dorsey sucks in this 2-gap defense!"

We don't look at each other during games...or speak. It's amazing how much communication happens without those two things.

Usually

Is he a Planeteer?

Perfection.

You are confusing LJ with Herm, Clayton was all the way over both sides of the fence on him. Way over.

But when LJ shit the bed, Clayton just laid low. He has been consistent with that obsession.

Not since 2002 or so. We've been mostly a 3-4, 2 gap team since 2004. Sure, they use the 4-3 sometimes, but the 34 is the base.

We do play 4-3 sometimes. We somewhat famously played it as a base for the first time all year in the SB game against the Eagles, if I remember correctly.

But since the start of the 2003 season we've been PRIMARILY a 3-4 team.

QFT.

This is your classic 2 gap 3-4.

http://i40.tinypic.com/513odz.jpg

The gap to either side of the center is called the A Gap. The Nose TAckle is responsible for BOTH gaps (i.e. 2 gaps). If the ball is handed off to a RB who goes through either A gap, then the NG is supposed to shut that play down.

That was informative. Thank you. And Rep.

yes

Thank you.

So, what happens in say, a bootleg or any other roll out play? The CBs go to the inside to cover?

The corners are always going to be covering their man (if it's man to man). Likely if the offense is running a bootleg against a 3-4 they will have a tight end or fullback assigned to take out the outside linebacker the QB might be rolling towards. If he bites on the play fake (i.e. crashes down) the TE may release and become a receiver, or the TE might block him just long enough for the QB to complete his roll out, and then release into the pattern.

I could be mistaken, but because the linebackers in a 3-4 are so frequently going right after the quarterback, the bootleg can be a risky play against that sort of defense. You're more apt to see straight up play-action.

One of the advantages of the 3-4, in theory at least, is that the offense never knows which linebacker is coming. It could be either of the OLBs. In a 4-3, generally on a pass play it's the 4 down linemen, and you know where they are before the snap.

The Patriots rarely play man-to-man coverage. It's almost invariably either a zone or a modified zone coverage. The design of the Patriots defense, at least, is to stop the run first and then stop the pass. In a zone situation, the DBs have a much better opportunity to see what is going on in the backfield and deal with the competing threats posed by a bootleg.

The first time we faced the Dolphins Wildcat offense last year, we were taken completely by surprise. It was the first time they had played it all year. The 'phins ran wild. Something like 8 plays for 200 yards and 3 TDs or something absurd.

The second time we played them, it was something like 8 plays for 25 yards (3 yards per play) and zero TDs. It was shut down.

The wildcat poses a challenge, but teams like the Patriots tend to do very well as they are a disciplined defense. If everyone runs their assignments properly, then it can be stopped.

To answer you directly, as opposed to Clathan...

In general, any type of rollout play against the Patriots becomes a race between the offensive linemen to beat the inside linebackers and safeties to the point of attack. The OLB on the side of the play where the rollout is headed has a VERY SPECIFIC assignment -- turn the play INSIDE. If the OLB gets caught INSIDE, then it can quickly get ugly for the defense.

Thsi is called "keeping containment". Belichick refers to it often. The OLB MUST be strong enough to hold his position or better, and to avoid getting blocked down.

Then it's a race between the inside linebackers and safeties, on the one hand, and the "free" offensive linemen (those not tied up by the defensive linemen) to get to the point of attack. First, the defensive linemen are supposed to stop the running play from going past them at all. If it does, then the ILBs and safeties are supposed to crash down and fill any gaps.

Espeically in training camp, the team works on, and BB talks about endlessly "filling gaps" and working on the front seven "fits."

The 3 defensive linemen and the 4 linebackers are like the pickets in a fence. If they all fill in their gaps properly, there is NO WHERE for the offensive linemen to run.

The 2 gap defense is NOT designed, generally, to get at the RBs behind the line of scrimmage. You see much more of that from attacking linemen like the Steelers and Giants. Patriots defenses are more conservative -- less likely to get a stop behind the LOS, but also less likely to give up any long running plays.

By design, the Pats defense is a "bend but don't break" philosophy, forcing teams to mount extended drives without making a mistake in order to score, and then tightening down as the offense nears the red zone to stop the TD. It's not a high-risk, high-reward strategy.

So, it seems like Dorsey would be great at this type of defense, in spite of the criticisms, right? As long as he sticks to his position.

No, not really. Dorsey's talent is attacking up the field. He's supposed to be a 1-gapper.

Which takes me back to my original thought....he never was all that good at being a 1 gapper last year,.....you said it was the coaches and their play calling....but yet they played a 4-3 which he was supposedly good at? So, maybe these coaches, this defense, and their play calling will work better for him?

NE in my view will show more 4-3 this year than they have in the past...with their pick of Brace in any obvious run down they can go to a giant 4 man line that would be nearly impossible to run on.

He wasn't being used as a 1 gapper last year, they had him playing heavy and straight up over a guard.

I'll honestly be surprised if he succeeds in a 3-4 everything it puts focus on are things he was never known for.

Maybe when Sapp was still playing. I doubt he haunts anybody's dreams nowadays. (Except possibly Claythan's);)

Well, I guess whether we like it or not, we're finding out!

I know the post has gone light years away from this but the bottom line is Sapp is a fat ass loud mouth eater of swiss rolls....

Thanks. I stand corrected.

Which?

It depends. Defensive Linemen don't get alot of love in a 3-4 two gap system. Generally speaking their stats will suffer compared to a 1 gapper, who has far more opportunity to get into the backfield for sacks or run stops before the play even has much of a chance to develop.

Alot of people thought Vince Wilfork was wasted in a two gap style, as he is massive AND pretty quick in a short burst. But he's also a superb two gapper, which speaks to his strength.

I can't speak for Dorsey, specifically, but if he has the size/strength to perform well as a 3-4 DE, then his stats may suffer, but the defense may be fine with him there.

Fans have alot more visibility and love for a guy who compiles 10 sacks in a noisy way than for a guy who does his job, holds the point of attack, but doesn't get many sacks. The Ty Warrens of the world...

I know diddily about Dorsey, so I looked him up. at 6'1" and 297, he's both shorter and a bit lighter than you'd like for a 3-4 DE. That's more of a 4-3 DE size.

If he has good lower body strength and either or both of good hands and/or long arms, however, he might be able to do well as a 3-4 DE.

He's 30 pounds too light to be a NG. Not sure if his frame could handle that much more bulk.

Sully

Sully and I talked about this last night.....we realized my confusion was that I thought Dorsey was supposed to be explosive in attacking the QB, when his specialty was collapsing the pocket. It all makes a lot more sense to me now that I have this differential clarified.

But, like I told Sully, you can't build a defense around 1 player, right? I think great players end up great because they are versatile in their talents. Let's hope Dorsey is that way.

Sully and Jilly. Sounds like a match made in heaven.

ROFL Depends on what story you get

That is not true.

DT was as far from versatile as one could be.

I think it's true. You're statement is just about as backed up as mine.

How do you figure?
You said great players are great because they are versatile.
DT is an example of the fallacy of that statement.

Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Dwight Freeny, Randy Moss are other examples.

Versatility is a great attribute, and can lead to greatness, but it is not necessary to achieve greatness.

really? this is turning into an argument on what constitutes greatness?

Example: A person can play the flute. They see the notes on the page, they play them all, in rhythm, and have great tone. But what makes them a GREAT player is their ability to put as much passion in Mozart as they would say, Faure. Granted, they like playing Mozart better, it makes more sense to them, but wouldn't it suck if that's all they played?

JFC, you are going to try to use music to support your patently false statement about football.

First I don't give a rat's ass about ****ing music.

Second, I provided an example to support my claim that you are wrong.

Third, I provided other examples that prove you're wrong.

But clearly, you can't admit you're wrong.

yes, point proven. You're such a football god.

No, I'm not a football god, you're just a typical bitch that can't admit it when she's wrong.

really? you're calling me a bitch? are you serious?

Jilly, he is rough, but he is right. Thomas was fairly one-dimensional. All he could do was rush the passer. The Chiefs yanked him off the field in the AFC Championship game once because the Bills were running right at him.

So, my argument was that, in case it wasn't clear, which I will go ahead and say it wasn't.....I believe for a player to be GREAT means they should be flexible, able to adapt. Yes, they still are a _______ (whatever position) and still are good at being a __________ (whatever position) , but shouldn't they be able to play that position, in a different defense, with the same greatness?

I don't feel like what I'm saying is totally out of line. And to be honest, I'm just trying to be a part of the discussion. I'm wrong 50% of the time and I know that, but I don't feel like I'm a total idiot for believing this.

Like the thread says, Sapp couldn't play 3-4 DE. He's going to the HOF.

I gotta go with milkman. You don't NECESSARILY have to be versatile to be great.

Most QBs stick with one system. IIRC, Joe Montana was WCO only, and it doesn't preclude him from being great.

You do have a point that versatility can make one great, like Adalius Thomas, who I would argue would not be great without the versatility, but it is not a requirement.
Posted via Mobile Device

I suppose you can be GREAT at ONE thing.

Like sex?

I don't pull punches.

I don't take passive-aggressive sideswipes.

I say what I think.

LT and DT had one skill. And it was good enough to make them HoFers and all time greats.

Michael Vick and Vince Young have one skill, and it isn't nearly enough to make them even good.

So it depends on the player. Rare players are good enough to dominate just by doing one thing extremely well. Anyone wanna argue that Dorsey is one of those rare athletes?

I think it's bullshit that you called me a bitch for having an opinion. That's what I think.

And, apparently, I'm wrong. And I can admit that. But have a discussion with me, don't just call me a bitch because I'm trying to make an informed decision.

No I do not.
Posted via Mobile Device

Damn, milkman is so hostile towards women!

No. You'd have to pick a certain position and defensive scheme.

I didn't call you a bitch because you have an opinion, and I will discuss that opinion.

However, the "you're a football god" bullshit will get you called a bitch.

Me neither. So to Jilly's original point... There's no sense building a defense around him. He may be way above average in a 4-3, but A) we don't know, and B) if the coach believes in some form of 3-4, why wait and see with a guy like that? BTW, all this is coming from a huge Dorsey fan.

ok you're not a football god.....but come on..... at least admit you don't know EVERYTHING there is to know, right? ;)

He played the Mecca card early in this one.

Rep LMAO ROFL

I am far from the most knowledgeble fan on this site.

I've learned a lot from many posters here.

You're welcome.

Now that right there is downright insightful.

I agree. Wholeheartedly.

However it is disappointing that we spent an 5 overall pick on a guy that "may" be "OK" in our system.

Honestly, I hope the **** he becomes a BAMF. We don't have enough of those. But I have tempered enthusiasm.
Posted via Mobile Device

Typical man.

I hope so, too.
I love the guy. I've seen him do too many good things, in college, and even last year, to give up on him. But it seems he will become a fringe guy, stats-wise.

Plus, he seems like a GREAT guy. A good guy to have on the team.

****. On this GD thing the button you push to go back to the lounge is right by the Quick Reply Button and since it has that "posted via mobile device" on there, the post is never empty. End result, if you accidentially click the wrong button, it's going to post.

Bottom line: Buehler445=FAIL
Posted via Mobile Device

No problem.

I've been pushing the wrong buttons for 50 years.

Stupid Bitch.

Eh?
Posted via Mobile Device

Can't you just have a discussion with him? He might be in the wrong, and I'm sure he'd be willing to admit it, but at least don't allow this to degenerate into name calling.

ROFL

Somebody (*ahem* Sully) is sleeping in the doghouse tonight.
Posted via Mobile Device

At least he won't have to see any ****ing ketchup.

WTF is WRONG WITH KETCHUP?

Well, "obvious run downs" are pretty infrequent. I agree that our bulk goal line package might be the biggest in football. Wilfork/Brace/Seymour/Warren is hellacious to move.

If we show more 4-3, it will be because Jarvis Green is a better pass rusher than any of our 3-4 OLBs, and that will be a real problem if that's the case.

:eek:

http://www.drugrehabamerica.net/img/valium5pil.jpg