Yes that was the score. But if you thought for any reason we were in that game at that point you were blowing smoke up your own ass.

2009 KC Chiefs: Passing is not the answer.

Not going for it on 4th down near the goal line and then kicking an onsides kick? Stupid.

Not getting the playcalls into the QB and having to use two timeouts to avoid delay of game penalties and then not having an opportunity to kick a field goal at the end of the half.

And, the penalties..... the ridiculous penalties.

Whatever you say.

Do you believe that the coaches thought the game was over at this point?

I might give you the 4th down call. The Onside kick did not hurt us at all. The play at the end of the half was on Cassel.

And again, penalties are rarely the fault of the coach. Haley did not make players jump on a QB and draw a PF.

Don't know. I think they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall.
Since you seem to know everyting though why don't you tell us?

Gee, I think you are starting to figure out what most of us knew in the pre-season.

If the coaches believed the game was over at 21-7, every single one of them should be fired today. Immediately.

And Pioli had it figured out, too. That's why we went with the 27-year-old, win-now QB.

Well, you don't know what they thought. But the fact is just about everyone who watched the game knew it was.

Wow, I guess you would have rather had Thigy?

We had to get Cassel when we had the chance. No one said it was the preferred time. And again with your filp-flopping. You know and even said yesterday what the Maangment says to the public is usually not what is said behind closed doors.

No, I would have drafted a QB.

And I would have worked to improve the line, which Pioli should have been doing anyway. Even if he doesn't touch the line, you can sit a n00b for the entire year, if necessary.

Yeah... you're probably right... R2P2 all the way.... I'm glad our offensive minded coach is leading this team in the right direction for the future....

Nevermind that this same excuse didn't work for the previous coach who had the same problems....

Dude, I can want to score 10 TD's every game and have the plays to do it. If I don't have the players to execute the plays then it doesn't matter.

Shhh...

Everything Herm did was wrong, but everything Haley does has a purpose.

Well, I guess O-Lineman-R-Us was out of the good stock.

And had we gone that route you would be crying in a year or two that we improved the line and now have a rookie QB and we should have got Cassel when we had the chance.

So is that a vote for the spread? If only they hadn't fired Gailey, eh?

Chan didn't have the players to execute the plays last year either.... what did he do with it? And what was the response?

I like the spread myself. I don't think any of us knows what the real deal was with Gailey. As I understand it, he wanted out way back in May or sooner and we told him no.

LMAO.

I can promise you that I wouldn't have been "crying" about not acquiring Cassel.

A bunch of crying that Thigy and the Pistol wasn't the answer?????:thumb:

And they weren't. Not long-term.

Do you disagree?

No. But for someone to sit here and say we should have kept Gailey because of such is stupid.

I know this is crazy talk, but maybe something in between? Perhaps we shouldn't run it up the center's butt every play, but we don't have to throw a hail mary every play, either?

Surely there are plays that can get the 14 defensive players out of the box without requiring Cassel to hold onto the ball very long.

Maybe we can turn over the playcalling napkin next week and find out!

It looks like we see this car crash differently, Mr. KC Fish.

Haley mentioned in his post-game presser that the rushing yards at halftime were "unacceptable" and something he couldn't let go by the "wayside". I think he decided to make a point.

As I said, it was a crazy man's decision, but bold, nonetheless. And, it just might work. Right now, his offensive line is realizing that they simply can't perform at that level, kill a quarterback or two, take a shower, get back on the plane, collect their check, and treat the loss as business as usual. He rubbed their collective nose in the turd they laid in the first two quarters. That second half won't be long forgotten by these players.

Again, if you can't run the ball in this league, you can't do much of anything else. Haley hasn't given up. The team did. And they gave up long before halftime. The o-line, for example, allowed the Eagles to beat them like a trailer park dog. Haley's saying, "If that's how you want to play the game, have some more."

This isn't Herm making excuses or DV defending the indefensible. This is John Wayne throwing Maureen O'Hara on the bed and walking out of the room.

FAX

Last year's entire staff should have been shit-canned as soon as Pioli was hired.

It pretty much has been.

Well said, Mr. Fax.

And to add, Haley took repsonsibility for everything, unlike Herm.

It's Haley's responsibility to prevent the team from giving up. Punishment by embarrassing them over and over with the same running plays that they can't execute seems like an odd way to motivate them.

FYP

Well, if they can't execute run plays they are going to have even a harder time executing pass plays.

Yeah... we're making the same mistakes. We're plagued by the same lack of talent. But at least we have a responsible coach to go along with our zero wins, cause that makes it all the better at the end of the day...

It is a step in the right direction. I am not sure what you expected but it sure seems you expected us to be 9-7 this year or something.

'But it's a gimmick offense' -Any number of posters... never mind it actually works from time to time...

3 words that pretty much describe every post you make.

I agree. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it. Certainly not with the Chiefs. Coaches will go into a shell if they're losing by two or three scores halfway through the 4th ... but never something like this. Herm is an exception, of course. The R2P2 was his bread and butter.

Haley explained it in his presser. He just didn't elaborate. He thought his guys were underachieving in the run game, he got pissed, and started calling runs. Personally, I'm so sick of the kind of performance this o-line has given over the last couple of years, I'm all for trying anything to wake them up. So, from my perspective, if this works, great. If not, we lose some more games while we wait to pick up better players - which was going to happen anyway if our o-line doesn't start blocking somebody. It's that simple, really.

FAX

It works in situations like what we have where the O-Line is horrible. That being said, you have to start playing a real system at some point and I think that is what Haley is doing. He knows he has a few years to build so he is going to implement as much as he can of his system and see who can execute and who cannot. Whereas Herm was 3 years into it.

I expected 3 or 4 wins. And I expected the mental mistakes to lessen and the overall toughness to show itself. I expected any kind of improvement over the stupidity that has plagued this team for the last 3 or 4 years. I expected honesty and consistency from the new GM and coach. I've been let down on all counts.

Actually I have seen Marty do similar with the defense. I forgot what game it was but it was one we lost and they asked him why we kept staying in our nickel-D witha team who was running on us so much? His answer was "because we need the work on our run D in our nickel set". Not quite the extent Haley went too but definitiely down the same path.

I do understand what you're trying to convey my friend. I just seriously question whether Haley has a hold on the team enough for a ploy like that to be effective at all. I'm not convinced that the players believe in Haley enough yet for that kind of tactic to work. He's not established enough yet in my eyes....

We still might get 3-4 wins. Look at who we have played in our 3 games...Balitimore, Oakland and Philly. Both Baltimore and Philly at their house.

And I guess him taking reponsibility is not honesty in your book??? I guess it was better when Herm was blaming the players when we lost and taking the credit when we won?

Responsibility isn't the same as honesty. The responsibility thing is way overrated in my opinion. It doesn't matter who's taking the blame. Neither is better. Zero wins is zero wins regardless of who's taking the blame. Responsibility in this case is nothing more than softening the disappointment. It doesn't make the loss any better just because somebody says "Ohh this one's on me." Change the losing culture instead of telling us who's fault it is. That's what I care about.

:spock:

Which plays entirely into the whole "ego" mystique that's being created around Pioli and Haley. The entire "my way or the highway" thing.

I don't know if the players believe in Haley or not - at least to the point that they're doing everything what he calls, "our way". I'm assuming they don't. Otherwise, he wouldn't be benching guys or engaging in this sort of bizarre tactic.

However, if they don't believe in him, it's moot because they're not going to be here. And, if they do believe in him, they should have gotten the point somewhere around the 4th quarter whistle yesterday. These players have run into a buzz saw. Do it right or lose a valued appendage.

Some people are going to applaud the attitude because these guys get paid to perform. Others are going to side with the players and demean Haley and Pioli as ego-driven megalomaniacs who don't know how to manage players. Personally, I just want to see our o-line block somebody. If it takes a bitch of a coach to accomplish that, so be it.

FAX

At some point he's got to find some players that believe in him and step up.

Exactly.

This isn't junior high. It's not high school. It's not even college.

These men are paid hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars per year to perform on the field. I don't care who's "responsible" as to why the Chiefs went into a shell yesterday or constantly committed penalties, I just want it fixed, asap.

I think players believe in one thing: The green.

Maybe four guys from the Chiefs offense and defense would start elsewhere in the league. The rest would be backups or out of work.

Haley needs to find a way to get these players, regardless of their talent level, to play as a unit and as efficiently as possible.

No one was expecting miracles but I think we all expected better than what we've seen the past two weeks.

Which brings us to an interesting point in the season and, frankly, Haley's tenure as HC.

The mental errors and penalties are all about coaching. Haley admitted it himself. That's two weeks in a row that traincar loads of penalties have dramatically and negatively affected the flow of the game at critical times.

Next week will be telling. If Haley has, in fact, lost the team, we'll see the same problems surface. If, however, the penalties and absurdly stupid mental mistakes are minimized, it's an indication that he's still getting through to them. It will also be interesting to see how the o-line responds to the butt-lashing they took on Sunday.

FAX

Next week will pose the most difficult challenge of the season, IMHO.

The Giants have arguably the best offensive line in the league and the best front seven in the league, bar none. Their pass rush is absolutely monstrous. I would not be surprised at all to see Haley employ the Spread/Shotgun offense 90% of the time in an effort to slow down Tuck, Umenyiora, Canty, Kiwanuka, et al.

I am also extremely interested in how the Chiefs defense defends the run because the Giants pose many problems in the run game.

I'd throw in 3 or 4 'Burt Reynold's Longest Yard let'em through' plays just to see if Cassel can knock one or two of them out.

continuing to run sucked...but its better than seeing cassel get carted off like trent green. remember how that felt? ugh.

I don't know, Mr. Fax. I mean how many of the penalties were holding penalties in yesterdays game? I don't think the holding penalties are due to coaching in our situation. Our guys aren't good enough to block so they have to hold. I think Haley has proven that caoching ain't these guys problem. Maybe if they would at least improve their holding maybe they wouldn't allow as may sacks..

PhilFree:arrow:

Agreed on all of this. Nice post. :clap:

Yea, It'll save our QB. That seems to be of paramount importance.

I too agree that yesterday's handling of the situation was wrong. Although the outcome seemed to have already been determined, I don't think you can send a message to your team that you should surrender to save the QB. If you're worried about your starter getting hurt, bring in the backup (Brodie in this case). But don't quit.

Maybe that wasn't Haley's motive. Maybe it was "We're going to run effectively come hell or highwater and we're going to do it now!". But, in my opinion (for what that is worth and probably not much) that should have been addressed in practice, not during the game with so much time left.

I honestly didn't count the number of holding calls against us, Mr. philfree. I think it was 4 of the 10, but I'm pretty sure one of those was on a wideout (Bradley, I think). They say that the officials could call holding on almost any play if they wanted to. We seem to get caught a lot, though.

Besides, it's true that some coaches would rather see a holding call than a dead quarterback. But guys hold when they're beaten. And, guys are beaten when they lack proper technique or are merely physically overmatched. You're right that you can't coach up the latter problem.

But, Haley freely acknowledged that the penalties were a coaching issue and when asked about it said, "that's on me". It seems as though we've had a variety of penalties in the last two weeks that weren't holding, though; Roughing the Passer, PIs, Delay of Game, Facemasks, Offsides, False Starts, etc. Although a couple were arguably bad calls, those kinds of penalties are typically related to an overabundance of either adrenalin or stupidness of the brain or both.

Haley says we're going to be a "smart team". We'll see if he can deliver.

FAX

Absolutely! What do people think Haley meant when he told Waters he can win 2 games with 22 players off the street?

The offensive line received a big message yesterday, they will run the ball and if you can't make the blocks you will not be long for this team. The expectation has been set in stone and now we will see who steps up to the challenge. No more fancy trick offense they are going to run a NFL offense and in time they will find the players to run it.

I am more convinced now then ever that Pioli and Haley are the right combination for this team.

He needs to have the same standard for the guys making stupid penalties that he does for DJ, Bowe, etc. Big Irish should start at RT for starters.

You send messages in camp and in preseason. On Sundays you try to win the game, especially when you are going against the backup QB and HB.

:hmmm:

I don't think Haley is the metaphoric type, sooooo....I think he meant that good coaching could improve any groupl of NFL players, and now he's beginning to learn otherwise.

"No more fancy trick offense"? Did we just come off the Herm era? If you're alluding to the pistol, neither of those two adjectives are applicable, IMO.

did the chiefs run any screens yesterday?

I believe they attempted a TE screen at one point, seriously.

It is amazing that the lengths some of you will go to in order to avoid criticizing anyone in this regime.

Look, it's this ****ing simple: Todd Haley can and will make mistakes. So will Scott Pioli. If you don't acknowledge this fact, you come off as a ****ing flat earther.

That second half was abysmal. You don't ****ing quit in a game. Period. If you don't want your investment to die, then yank his ass, but you don't ****ing quit on the guys who busted their ass all through OTAs, minicamps, and training camp. That's ****ing bullshit. End of story.

They ran a couple of WR screens too. Of course one of them resulted in a 10-yard loss because our WR's are too dumb to realize you don't start your block before the ball is thrown.

Yeah, and yesterday it was the ****ing refs who kept screwing us.

Keep changing the narrative to fit your ends.

We're good with obtuse messages at this point: we're sending a message...it's a process...the right 53...

Did any of your relatives die at Jonestown?

I never once said the refs were ****ing us. I just said they were not making blatant holding calls on Philly. Not once did I say it was effecting the outcome. The most I said was it didn't help.

I'm pretty confident that anyone who is reasonable and has at least SOME knowledge of the game would freely admit that both the coach and front office (even this one) has and will make mistakes. However, "the sky is falling" folk make it a little hard not to swing the pendulum the other way.

I mean...it's just STOOPID to start making wide-sweeping statements regarding a coach and a front office that has had one off season, one pre-season and 3 regular season games. You can argue fine points, but not the big picture.

You want to continue to lose and delay the inevitable and have happy players and a happy Whitlock...you should have kept Herm and fired Peterson.

You want to win now in a mediocre division as another thread suggested? You should have hired Marty again and he would have won this division somehow...and you would lose in the playoffs every chance you got.

You want to build a long-term winning organization that will begin laying the foundations that will pay off in years 3 and 4. You do what we've done in hiring from a good coaching/personnel tree and hope they have some of the same talents for coaching and evaluation as their predecessors. They might not...but at least under this option, you've tried to win a championship.

I still recall Jimmy Johnson taking over in Dallas and what a piece of crap the cowboys were under his "style" of coaching. It eventually sunk in...and they did pretty well.

None of you will remember or care about this season if Haley brings the Chiefs a Superbowl.

When the team has a ton of penalties over the preseason and the two of the first three games.... it is coaching.

When the coaches and GM preach about the 'right' 53..., they better freaking play smart football.

The play at the end of the half was equally on Haley. Sorry, but the QB should be told right before that play, that no matter what, you don't thorw it in bounds.

But, the bigger issue was not having timeouts because he couldn't get the play in quick enough... mainly because he fired his OC in the last week of preseason.

I really like the 'accountability' aspect of Haley, but there is also very much that I am growing not to like.

Dude.

Just when I thought my opinion of you could drop no further, you bust out into the clear.

Good post.

If Herm went into "Operation Shutdown" the same ****s lining up to fluff Haley would be the first ones pleading for air strikes on his house.

The fact that I haven't even seen him in a game concerns me.

Maybe he's actually worse than Ndudwe in practice?

Sauto agreed with Pete on this topic, officially that means it is wrong.

Please feel free to ban me for a day if I ever acknowledge agreeing with Pete about anything

I don't know if it was a "message" or not. Personally I believe it was, but that's not the point. Whether it's Herm, Vermeil, or Haley, any new head coach is going to need time to instill their method and vision on a team. ESPECIALLY if that team has been in the bottom 5 of the league for two years straight.

Some of you cry that Herm would have been crucified for yesterday. That's because he would do it in his 23rd game. This was Haley's 3rd. Whether you would have made the same choices or not, Haley's gonna be here a while so just settle down and see where he's going with this.

Herm didn't get that luxury, I'm not sure why so many are stepping up and giving the benefit of the doubt to Haley.

If Herm were still the coach, there would be countless threads criticizing the playcalling and saying he hates to pass, Arena ball, 3yds and dust, run it up the center's ass, R2P2, etc. Haley does the same shit and it's all for the sake of progress.

There would 87 threads on page 1 about "playing to win the game."

Our current coach quits and it's playing within our limitations and sending a message. It's unreal.