I just thought it was odd that you were curiously absent from the Sanchez thread, being as he is your messiah and all.

Yep. I defended a guy who took several teams to the playoffs and got the shaft here from a GM that didn't let him build the team his way until his third year.

I am actually glad he is gone because I don't think he would have taken the Chiefs to the Super Bowl. But, I also acknowlege that he was given a very poor situation here.

So who brings up whom?

Sensible is one of those guys that should have his eye removed.....with an ice pick.

Then, I could see the game the way you do.

You always have streaks of coherent posts but then you drive right off a goddamn cliff, it never fails.

Not sure. We're still trying to figure out the subject and object forms.

Yeah, though it still sucks to once again be on the wrong side of somebody's career performance. In this case, Clinton Portis' career long 78-yard run. But again, a small disappointment compared to the overall effort.

I'm with Mecca on this one. Hali is average. No one is going to write him in for a Pro-Bowl birth anytime soon. He isn't athletic enough to be great in coverage and doesn't have the burst or moves to be a great pass-rusher.

What he does have is work ethic and a motor. Those two things will get you 5-8 sacks a year and a solid starting role on an average defense. Combine those two things with actual talent and you get Jared Allen, who IS the dominant player many of you seem to think Hali is.

This defense has sucked so bad for so long, you guys are salivating over mediocrity.

I don't think you know what cornerstone means.

I see Hali as a great guy to have on the team that will be a good mentor to the guy we draft to take his position. Actually you can never have enough pass rushers though so maybe Hali and two other OLBs not yet on the team would give us a nice rotation where our pass rushers stay fresh. I hope we don't think we have our ROLB position covered because Hali has proven just adequate. I like the guy but he's A V G.

PhilFree:arrow:

Tamba, Shaka, when the quarterback fell!

Hali returns!

To me, it just means a piece that contributes on the positive side of the equation that is still in his prime.

The guy plays his responsibilities well, has a non stop motor, and is a leader on the defense. He needs more help around him.

Even still, he should have 10 sacks this year. I know he is on pace for 8, but the Chiefs have had their toughest stretch of the schedule.

I think a double digit sack guy is a cornerstone. Call me crazy.

That's not what a cornerstone is. Jared Allen is a cornerstone. Ray Lewis is a cornerstone. Tamba Hali is not a cornerstone.

Haley inherited worse due to the terds that Herm left in the punch bowl

First, Jared Allen is hands down better than Hali.

That said, Jared Allen didn't really produce until he had talent lining up next to him in Boone and Hali rushing from the other side.

Add in that early in his career, Allen was actually given leads and could rush the passer without fearing the run so much.

Now, Allen is playing on a great line.... no question.

Okay, again, Allen is the better player. However, that doesn't mean that Hali is 'average'. He is good. Just not dominant. He can't take over a game.

But, he is a solid starter, and would be on most teams in the league.

The defense should actually improve because I think the front three are playing better.

I hope that DJ can get his stuff together, because he has the talent to really make this defense step up.

Otherwise, this defense will really struggle all year. They just don't have enough ability in the middle of the field.

And, Hali is good on one side, but Vrabel isn't what he used to be. Chiefs really need some more speed and explosion at that spot.

I would not compare Hali to any of those players.

But, that is your definition of what a cornerstone is.

I explained mine.

Not true.

Haley has the benefit of inheriting a young team he can build the way he wants.

Some of the guys that Herm took, he chose to play a different style of offense and defense.

It will be interesting to see how those young guys play as they go to different teams.

Two players who Chiefs planet, by and large, believed sucked are starting with their new teams.

McBride had 1.5 sacks. Pollard is starting for a Texans team much better than the Chiefs.

Oh, and their defense has improved since his arrival.

Yet, those two players 'sucked'.

Herm drafted much better than DV did. We will see McBride and Pollard be productive for the next 10 years.

Not superstars.... but productive NFL players that would have contributed here for a long time.

Haley is just going in a different direction. That is understood, and should be encouraged.

Give him three years to build the team his way. Then evaluate.

Once you hire a guy, it is a bigger mistake to tie their hands and ask them to do things your way. You hire a guy for a reason.

So, long live Haley. Lets see where this thing is in three years.

Same as the Chiefs should have done with Herm. Give him three years, but with the ability to make changes from the very beginning.

He had his breakout season when those two were lined up on the same line. Just the year prior, Hali had more sacks than him.

And, prior to that, as I said, the offense gave him leads to work with and he could be one dimensional. (Which led to his benching at the beginning of the 2005 season).

Rookie year, starting only 10 games, Allen had 9 sacks. His next year without Hali he had 11. Allen emerged as a force from the very beginning.

Hali, a cornerstone player? Too funny.

A cornerstone player is an elite talent who causes major matchup problems, thus creating opportunities for everyone else, in addition to getting his.

Hali, while a good story, is hardly someone whom opponents have to gameplan for.

It is amazing what happens when you have an offense that is explosive and can give you leads, and all you have to do is rush the passer.

Yet, even with all his studliness, he had fewer sacks in 2006 than 'average' Tamba Hali. Hmmm.

He had his first pro bowl in his fourth year. Up until 2006, he was considered a liability against the run, and a one dimensional player. In 2006 he finally started to put together all of his repsonsibilities and fewer sacks than Hali.

In 2007, he finally broke out. His fourth year, also the year that they added a good DT playing next to him.

But, don't let the facts get in the way of your hero worship.

Again, a 'different' definition. See how this works. We all define these terms a bit differently.

Some people consider a franchise QB a far lesser accomplishment than I do. I consider a franchise player, a guy like that, be it on offense or defense.

But, even at your definition.... if you haven't noticed, Hali is the one on this defense that the offense game plans for. I can tell by looking at the games, but even the coaches and players admit it.

For the record, Hali isn't a 'franchise' player in my mind. He isn't a dominating player. He is just a good player that is a starter on most teams and is not needing replacement. I wouldn't mind seeing him on the other side. I wouldn't mind having a truly explosive pass rusher where he is now.... but even at his current OLB spot, he can be very effective.... and a solid piece of the foundation of this defense.

What a surprise, Herm Edwards takes over and Allen's numbers drop. I guess Herm can ruin anything if he tries.

Small school prospect puts up 9 sacks his rookie year and 11 the next year on a DL that is complete shit - yes, he was a force from the start. He is what you call a cornerstone.

Oh, and IF Hali gets 11 this year, will he be a 'force'?

Just want to set the ground rules..... because I think 10 is coming....11 is possible.

And, 'if' he is a force, does that mean a cornerstone?

Well, I didn't think I would get much of an objective point of view here, don't know why I tried.

Thanks for the debate.

To be clear..... I think Allen is a franchise player in the NFL. He is better than Hali beyond question. I just think that his production was clearly benefited by adding talent around him and game situations. Things that Hali does not have the benefit of at this time.

Additionally, Allen was a one dimensional player early and it wasn't until 2007 that he really put everything together and became dominant.

That isn't a slight against him, just an acknowlegement of what it takes to be a great player, and how guys develop over time.

Tell, me, did that piece of shit Portis wave his championship belt after the game this time?

I will never forget the kick in the gut that game in Denver gave me.

Hali does not have the benefit of talent around him? Allen had Sims on the line his first two years. Hali has two top 5 picks on the DL who don't appear to be the busts that Sims is/was.

Allen had an OFFENSE.

I know that this is complex stuff for you... but when you have an explosive offense, the other team tends to have to pass more.

It is the entire team, not just the defensive line.

Allen's 2nd year - KC opponents threw the ball 559 times. That's 35 per game average
This year opponents have thrown 203 times, or 34 per game on average. That one additional attempt per game created a huge advantage for Allen.

From what I have read in this thread, Allen got 11 sacks that year. Tamba is on track to at least come close to that and I think everyone will agree that Allen is the better talent. But that shows that Tamba is not a bust and is playing solidly this year in a new position.

Not that I care, it is fun watching you guys go back and forth. But you have to keep your arguments clean.

I never opined on Hali. I was only arguing against Sensible's claim that Allen developed only when Boone and Hali came aboard.

To go back. I liked the Hali draft pick. I think a team can win a championship with him at LDE as long as you have a strong RDE. I think he's a solid 43 lineman.

I think he's exceeding the expectations of 99% of this board (myself included) with his play at OLB. All that being said, I still think he's more of a complimentary player than a "cornerstone". Even if he puts up 9 sacks this year, I still don't view him as the difference maker that Allen is/was. I think offenses game plan around Allen. I don't think they do it for Hali, and I'm fairly certain Pioli is going to try to draft that cornerstone pass rusher within the first two rounds next year.

This on all accounts.

I see Hali as a complimentary player. A decent player who can possibly end up with 8 sacks tis year.

I think he will be nothing more then a decent player. I believe he is not viewed as a relentless passrusher, and thats what seperates him from greatness. He doesn't get in the backfield enough or apply enough pressure to force the QB's into bad throws. I also don't see him bat down balls at the LOS, and he has very little moves as a passrusher. His effort is there no question, but, when I see him get stood up by RB's and TE's, I don't see that as a good sign.

Even though I think he is ok. An okay player could get upgraded or replaced. An okay player isn't going to make a difference. This team still needs a passrusher no if's and's or but's about it.

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

I wonder if some people actually watch the games or just build opinions off of others.

Jared Allen had 8 sacks in his rookie year, one that he only got on the field around the halfway point.

The next year he had 10 or 11, playing next to Sims and Dalton.

Hali came in the next year and Jareds sack total dropped to like 7, so no his totals didnt go up because he was across from the great Hali. ROFL

A "Cornerstone" DEMANDS a double team to be slowed down and cannot be shut out of a game unless trippled. Hali can be single blocked most the game.


I like his progression so far, but lets not go full reerun.

Hali demands a TE or RB.

So there.

:D

Dude, if Hali gets 11 sacks Ill cut off my arms with a pumpkin carver

Actually, he had 9 his rookie year, 11 his second year. Game situations.

And, if you pay attention, I said it was due to having talent around him including Hali and Boone.

I wonder if guys actually watch the games...because there is a ton of revisionist history and the way they remember it, not the way it actually was.

Allen was always a good pass rusher.... but he wasn't a dominant rusher and wasn't a good all around DE until his fourth year.

Well, lucky for you, I won't hold you to it... he already has 21.5 for his career.

Seriously though, he should log 10. I expected eight coming into the season, but he has done a better job than I expected... and the line is getting better.

I don't actually disagree with your overall take on Hali, Sensible (a misnomer if there ever was one), but I think you need to pick up a dictionary and read the definition of "cornerstone".

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD X2!!!

Jared was dominant because of Boone? Really?

Some of this stuff makes my brain hurt.

Hali is an average player that is looking good because Dorsey is playing so well.

Ill be surprised if, by years end, he isnt getting exposed for his lack of speed in coverage and to the edge, ala the flip play the raiders used to beat us.

He has gotten better, and is much better than I expected, but CORNERSTONE??? PLEASE, just quit.

ROFL

my bad, I meant 11 sacks this year buddy.

Even Allen himself credited Boone with getting him to the Pro Bowl because it was the first time that a team couldn't pretty much ignore the guy playing next to him.

Not saying saying it was 'because' of Boone. Just pointing out that until Allen had better talent around him, he wasn't as dominant. Some of that was the talent getting better. Some of it was him taking the next step.

Sorry that you don't understand the nuances of the argument.

I know... just playing around.

I just wish he got to play the Packers.... or the Chiefs.

UMMMMM what?

OK, if Jared got 9 in 10 starts as a rookie, thats just about 1/game...right? Projected over 16 games that is..........14-16, right? NO BOONE

But somehow Boone made it all happen in 2007?

He may have helped, but really, Allen is a one man wrecking crew.

Jared is good enough that a team could probably just run a 1-5-5 defense and rush him alone every play of the game and drop everyone else into coverage and he would get 15 sacks and the defense would feast on badly thrown and rushed passes.

ok maybe that is a gross exaggeration but it sure would be interesting.

Yep... as a rookie, as a pass rusher. He caught guys off guard. Notice he wasn't close to that pace in the next year, and he had fewer sacks than Hali the year after that.