I've said this time and time again.

Manning, in the face of consistent pressure, shrivels up.
He pussifies.
He doesn't stand tall in the pocket and hold the ball until the last minute ato deliver the ball, and as a result, the receivers are unable to finish their routes and be in position to make a catch.

Their passing game relies heavily on timing, much as Kurt Warner and the Rams or the Cards.

He stands in and delivers.

Joe Montana, as fragile as he was, did also, as has tom Brady, as does Ben Roethlisberger, as does Drew Brees.

Manning is a pussy.

We should trade Cassel for Brady straight up.

They scored 14 points!

They set every single offensive record anyone could ever think of that season and scored 14 points!

In the MOST IMPORTANT game of Tom Brady's life...

He didn't show up.

P.S. Tom Brady does have the NFL record for TD passes in a season.

P.S.S. Tom Brady's 2007 doesn't TOUCH Peyton Manning's 2004.

Hmmm similar to the Tuck Rule that started the entire Pats "dynasty".

It always goes both ways.
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Closed, my ass.

Shut the **** up.

This is a very fair point and an interesting perspective that I'm sure the Cassel apologists will love.

I'll say it again, the guy caught the ball with his head.....

He had more touchdowns but i guess that doesnt "touch" peyton.
Oh btw, at least brady made it to the superbowl that year. I cant remember who peyton lost to, but he got his ass kicked.
Do you seriously just sit down and think "what can i type today that will make cp think im reeruned?"

That's rich.

Manning is a "pussy"...

If that is what the next turn of the Brady/Manning debate turns into...god kill me now.

Peyton Manning is such a perfect QB that his critics are now going to attack him for not allowing his receivers to finish routes because he won't stand in the pocket and take hits!

I'm sorry...

For every 1 play Ben Roethlisberger makes because he holds on to the ball forever and lets the play "develop"...he makes about 4 bad plays for the very same reason.

I watched a half dozen Steelers games this year and I can remember at least 3 occasions where the Steelers were in the red zone and he did something stupid to take them out of FIELD GOAL range even...

But hey...I understand Manning plays the QB position as perfectly as it can be played and I know you're stubborn Milkman and you're desperately holding onto the idea that Brady is better than Manning (for some reason unknown to me)...

So if this is what you've got then this is what you've got...

What are we going to say after Manning wins tonight against the Ravens?

Lets say he has a statistically mediocre game but the Colts win...

Will he be a choker? We all saw how good Tom Brady was against these very same Ravens last week...

I ask again - could the Colts have ever gone 11-5 with Jim Sorgi? You're honestly going to pound your chest and yell "3 Superbowls!!!" when Matt Cassel took that same system to an 11-5 record? Doesn't that say all that needs to be said about how difficult it was to win football games there? If a guy like Cassel can get you to 11-5, just exactly how can you compare SBs?

Name one single thing that Tom Brady does on a football field better than Peyton Manning. I say all the time that I don't care about statistics with Matt Cassel because I can point to how he actually plays between the lines and his physical shortcomings.

There's not a single thing that Tom Brady does better than Peyton Manning. Point to mythical intangibles like 'clutch play' all you want, but it's nonsense. Without Adam Vinitiari, Tom Brady's just a top flight QB; nobody would dream of comparing him to Manning.

His celebration....http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/20.../amd_tyree.jpg

Peyton had a better QB rating...

Tony Dungy didn't run up scores all year like the Patriots.

Peyton Manning played 1 series in week 17 in a meaningless game...Tom Brady played an entire game (in a meaningless game) and they were obviously record hunting the whole time...

So I always find it funny when people try and tell me Tom Brady had a statistically better year in 2007 than Manning in 2004...because it's not true.

I promise you if their line and defense plays like the patriots, the colts wont win jack shit.

Pushead...not sure I get your point...

Plaxico Burress predicted the Patriots would score 17 points...

Tom Brady laughed at him and basically mocked the Giants...because you know...they set so many offensive records that year.

THEY SCORED 14 POINTS AND TOM BRADY PLAYED A BAD GAME.

Period.

He choked away the biggest game of his life and you can't say otherwise...but try and spin the David Tyree angle some more.

Wins these....http://ui25.gamespot.com/2008/patriotsposter_2.jpg

There are two promises I can make every NFL postseason:

Ready for them?

I promise you if Tom Brady and the Patriots lose...everyone will make excuses for Tom Brady because he is a "winner"...and "winners" never lose.

That's one.

My other promise?

If Peyton Manning loses, he's a choker.

I.E. This thread where Milkman references the Charger losses over the past two years.

once again, if tom couldnt touch peyton that year, why couldnt he get to the superbowl. Peyton can put the whole team on his back, remember.

So what happened?

yes on a 53 man roster that one man lost the game for them.....actually Rodney Harrison choked in the biggest game of their lives...

you know what the BIGGEST shame of it all is?

The Patriots NEVER respected Adam Vinatieri enough to reward him with a Super Bowl MVP...

You have three MVP's from the Patriots dynasty...

Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and Adam Vinatieri.

Wouldn't have won a single Super Bowl without all three of those pieces...take 1 away, any 1, pick 1...no Super Bowls.

Manning has been a choker since his days of UT when he couldn't beat Florida...

WIth a system that Matt Cassel guided to an 11-5 record.

Put Peyton Manning in NE and Tom Brady in Indy and it's a bloodbath. Indy wouldn't have even played .500 football with Tom Brady under center this year (injured WRs, no running game, scatter-shot defense) and Manning would've taken them to 16-0 but/for a moron head coach.

Give me your honest answer.

If peyton was under center last week, would he have beaten the ravens, and if so, why?

Rex Grossman should have won it for the Colts then if that's your dumb argument....

They lost to a better Patriots team on the road in the playoffs?

That's simple. It's not like the Patriots didn't have the better seed or anything.

But Peyton choked that year...yet Tom wasn't the choker in 2006 when he ended their season, at Indy, with a pick on the final drive where a TD sends them to the Super Bowl.

That isn't a choke job...nevermind they were winning 21-3 at one point...

and the sad thing is I personally think Manning is a better QB...but the way you shit on Brady is reeruned.

Ever heard of derek anderson?

I guess somehow people forget how well Peyton Manning played in that Super Bowl against the Bears...

Against the best defense the league has seen since the Ravens won the Super Bowl earlier in the decade...

But you're right...that was all Grossman and the Colts defense.

Yes.

Manning doesn't take that sack/strip.

Manning doesn't throw 2 first quarter picks.

Tom Brady put his team in a hole they couldn't crawl out of. If Mannings there, but Ravens could've never gone into the bombshell offense they went into.

You genuinely believe Manning would've lost to a team that completed 4 passes?

well I guess we get to find out tonight...

and if you're asking...

I'm thinking Colts 24 Ravens 13

"every time the colts ask peyton to win the game, he delivers"

Lol peyton is playing on the patriots tonight?

They try and talk about weapons...

Lets go watch some 2007 Patriots game tape and watch how many times Brady heaves the ball 55 yards into double coverage (Miami anybody?) to see Randy Moss make remarkable catch after remarkable catch...

Sorry...Peyton Manning has NEVER had anything CLOSE to 2007 Randy Moss...Peyton and his receivers do it all with timing...he's never had a security blanket to heave to when nothing else is open.

And lets be honest...

Randy Moss IS/WAS so good...SO good...we thought Daunte Culpepper was a top tier QB for YEARS...Nick Saban traded a 2nd round pick for Culpepper rather than signing Drew Brees off the street for NO compensation.

he went 25/38 for 247 2tds 1int
Grossman 20/28 165 1td 2int

The guy is a great player, Id never doubt him for that and Im glad to see an improvement in his character.

You have no disagreement from me that their defense has been a problem for them. However, this is where I am trying to get at, Moss does have a weakness. His work ethics are questionable at times. They are. When times are tough, I don't view him as the type of player who puts forth enough of a concerted effort to help his team win. He has a lack of fortitude.

Thats the way I've always interpreted him. And we all know the Patriots as an organization with players that have loads of players with fortitude and effort. Those characteristics have been a staple of the Patriots franchise over this last decade. It's pretty much been their blueprint over the years and another reason why they were world champions. Now, anytime you add guy like Randy Moss into that mix, it has an effect on their overall chemistry and morale. Not exactly a good blend if you ask me.

I will admit, the first pick was awful. The 2nd one was bad, but the strip, come on man.

It was like matt light wasnt even there. He did NOTHING on that play. Even peyton doesnt get the ball off that fast.

Grossman also fumbled twice and it wasn't pressure because he was only sacked once.

no but he's playing the team that made Tom Brady look like an inferior Matt Cassel

Peyton ever have wide recievers that quit on routes?

My memory is that Brady patted the ball just beofre getting blasted.

Manning doesn't pat. He throws on time or he throws it away.

Dude...

The Bears defense led them to the Super Bowl...ALL YEAR LONG they played with Grossman or Griese...

ALL YEAR LONG...

But suddenly they lose all credibility as an opponent because Rex Grossman was their QB?

LMAO

Manning handled that defense almost flawlessly (especially compared to the rest of the NFL)...38 minutes T.O.P.

but that doesn't count because he only beat Rex Grossman in the Super Bowl..

So Tom Brady has 4 Super Bowls (because that Tyree catch doesn't count) and Manning has 0 Super Bowls...

Right?

Vinatieri had 12 of the 29 points....thats 17 then there was a pick 6 for another 7, Thats 10 points produced by the Manning in that game...

Cause the 2008 patriots are the exact same team as the 2009 patriots.

not at all, but Grossman played horribly....Grossman the good half showed up in that game and Peyton still would have no ring...

no hootie, don't let it go ... keep grinding that shit.

oh so suddenly Randy Moss is Oakland Raiders Randy Moss, and since Wes Welker was injured now we're going to play the "Tom Brady needs WEAPONS!" card!

Oh, ok. Got it.

Peyton Manning has Dallas Clark! It isn't fair!

(Coming from the same guys who tell us how unimportant the TE position is)...

Such hypocrites when it comes to this debate...it's hysterical.

FORTUNATELY...outside of a few people...everyone gets it now...

The Pats are DONE.

The Colts aren't...

I don't buy into the argument that the Colts couldn't win games without Manning.

Does Jim Sorgi look like crap?

Sure.

Manning might be more valuable to the Patriots because his b/u may be absolute crap.

I know this, however, before Brady went down last year, the Pat fans thought that Cassel was absolute crap, and that the Patiots couldn't win games without Brady.

Until we see the Colts with another QB under center for more than some meaningless snaps, we have no way to know how they'd fare without Manning.

If you tell me that they'd lose more games without Manning than with, then I can buy into that.

ROFL

This is just getting ridiculous.

So I guess we won't count Vinatieri's missed 29 yard field goal or his botched PAT...

Or the time consuming drives that led to all of these field goals...

I guess we'll just ignore the fact the Bears had the 2nd best defense we've seen in the past 10-15 years...

and we'll ignore all of the great drives the Colts had and the 38 minutes T.O.P.

we'll just write that off on Grossman and not credit Manning for putting together a lot of great drives against the Bears potent defense...

Those don't count.

you just like to type....:shake:

By all means, enjoy the return of Peyty Manningheimer tonight.

I hope your kidding

Kinda funny I expect the Ravens to beat the Colts....the Colts run D is garbage and Ray Rice well he's good.

so Matt Cassel sucks for regressing the 2007 Patriots from 16-0 to 11-5...but Tom Brady gets a pass because the 2009 Patriots aren't the same as the 2008 Patriots.

Got it.

Hey I'd give up now if I were you too...

Nope. Not blaming Moss. Just trying to say that when you add players who don't exactly blend into the overall team chemistry and morale it does have a bit of an effect on the team.

Your second paragraph proves to be correct. This is definately a league where its "what have you done for me lately?"

That's dumb.

Did you watch the pats this year? Moss jogged on some of his routes. Even the espn dudes acknowledge it. I never said randy was bad so stfu.

No one is arguing that Brady has never choked in the clutch.

as a matter of fact, I would aregue that he has choked in the clutch in the Patriots last three playoff losses.

What we are arguing i sthat he has delivered in the clutch more than Manning has.

And the fact is, that point is inarguable.

Just not going to happen...

In fact...

I almost expect the Colts to keep the Ravens running game fairly in check.

The Ravens ONLY CHANCE of winning tonight is scoring first...and not a field goal, either.

If the Colts jump out 7-0...game over.

The Ravens better win the toss and elect to receive.

Randy Moss isn't the Patriots problem, if anything he turned Wes Welker into a star because everyone is worried about him getting deep.

Their problem is their defense turned to mush and they still have no running game and start passing 80% of the time.

have you watched Randy Moss for the past 12 years or are you just now tuning in?

The Colts struggled like hell with the Ravens in their first meeting they musterd what 20 points something like that?

If the Ravens can consistently get pressure on Manning, and they can get a couple TDs on the board and go into the 4th quarter with a lead, I think they win.

Manning can not deliver in the clutch against pressure.

Its pretty obvious that the defense has gotten worse since last year. Idk why you cant see that.

In the Playoffs, you get the 'Peyton loses because he's a choker' line, because SO MANY MANY TIMES the other team raised it's play and Peyton lowered his.

I just disagree...

Just because the Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls doesn't mean Tom Brady delivered in the clutch.

Because I don't think he did...

If the Patriots EVER had ANY pressure on them in those last drives in those Super Bowls...then sure, depending on the drive and scenario, I'd label him a captain clutch in a heartbeat.

The fact is...

Both times they needed a score to win in the Super Bowl the games were tied...

Everyone knows that pressure is SQUARELY on the opposing defense...

I'd love to have seen Tom Brady down by 4 on one of those drives...

Yup. I agree Ray Rice is a gamer. I think the Colts are going to have a tough time stopping him.

You are the master of ducking questions.

They sure did...

I've done a bunch of research on that game...

The Ravens were 0-4 in the red zone and the Colts were 2-4 in the red zone...

Neither one of those things are going to happen this time around...

The game is also in Indianapolis.

This is the one game (other than the Chargers maybe) where I can see only two possible outcomes...

A close game where the Colts will probably win 8 out of 10 times...or a blowout where the Colts win by 10+...

Like I said...the only chance for scenario A in my opinion is the Ravens scoring 1st...

if the Colts jump out 7-0 I think it's going to be a route.

That whole team was clutch Hootie. It really comes down to that.

In the SB against the Rams, how much time was on the clock when the Patriots got the ball?

To discount that because the score was tied is moronacy at it's best.

ROFL

Wow that's quite the statement.

Throwing around "definites" as fact.

Manning certainly delivered against the almighty Patriots in the clutch in the AFC Championship game in 2006 when the game was on the line.

Regardless...

The Ravens have one shot. They need to score first. Period.

I remember one Super Bowl where the Pats were down by 3 and had plenty of time to get into field goal range...

but Brady got sacked a few times and game over.

But that wasn't his fault...his team let him down.

I do know that the one Super Bowl where the pressure was on Tom Brady on the final drive because they were actually down a score (3) rather than being tied...he didn't deliver.

What's the one thing a QB can't do in that situation? Take a sack?

Yikes.

It's called absolutes, and you're right, I'll give you that.

Manning can deliver in the clutch, but he's consistently failed to do so, only delivering once.

Yup score first, win the turnover battle and control the whole game. I think it'll be a tough match up for the Colts, they've always seemed to struggle against really physical and smart teams.

I've said this more than once, dumbass, so pay the **** attention.

Brady has failed to deliver in his last three playoff losses.
That includes that SB.

But that doesn't discount the fact that he still has delivered more often than Manning.

Hootie do you have your What Would Peyton Do bracelets on?

Wow man!

How clutch is he! The Rams gave him underneath routes and he sure stepped up and made those 3 yard throws to allow Vinatieri to drill that 48 yard extra point chip shot!

Captain clutch knows how to work those flats that those awesome prevent defenses allow!

oh he's delivered more than once...

Unless of course we're talking about Super Bowl rings...which apparently we are...

so yeah, you're right...Brady has 3 rings to Manning's 1...that is fact, I'll give you that.

Its funny how you knock me and other posters for "discrediting" peyton, when you do the exact same thing with brady.