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-   -   Chiefs Rick Gosselin draft grade: Chiefs get A+ (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=227224)

patteeu 04-25-2010 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 6712356)
Yep build the foundation and then you can add all the special parts.
A week ago, a statement like that gets you labeled a "True Fan".

ILChief 04-25-2010 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBOSHO (Post 6712454)
I have a hard time believing that we had a better draft than the seahawks.
ironic. If you listened to all the CP wanna be Mel Kipers before the draft (when there was talk of the Chiefs being interested), Russell Okung was a POS that couldn't block me coming off the edge. Now that the Chiefs didn't take him he's the crown jewel of a great Seahawks draft.

chris 04-25-2010 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzen (Post 6712285)
I think some people feel as though they are smarter than Pioli and Haley and could run a draft better. Sure, I was kind of scratching my head with some of those picks. But I think it's completely unfair and quite frankly, moronic to say they had a bad draft when we don't know how these guys will pan out. I have always felt that you can't judge a draft until at least 3-4 years down the road.

I will trust the guys at One Arrowhead for now and take a wait and see approach. I think they at least deserve that.

As for the LB corps and the NT position, I wish we would have addressed those. But I also wonder if they feel that they could not address all of those needs in this on draft. Perhaps we will see a FA or 2 and then they address the LB and NT issue in next year's draft.
WHAT!?! You are injecting logic into this thread? Impressive.

alnorth 04-25-2010 10:27 AM
My theory is SEC bias. I'm wondering if a lot of southern sportswriters, after suffering through losses by their favorite teams partially by these dazzling playmakers, now have an overinflated view of their worth.

Kind of like how we get a little excited when a good KU/KSU/MU player goes somewhere, and the rest of the nation is thinking "who?"

chris 04-25-2010 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo (Post 6712300)
Really? C'mon man, you've been around here long enough to know that if you're opinion is not that of the consensus, you're and idiot.

:D
Posted via Mobile Device
You mean, small, loud voice minority consensus.

milkman 04-25-2010 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 6712480)
A week ago, a statement like that gets you labeled a "True Fan".
We aren't talking about taking O-Lineman here.

We are talking foundational player that could come in and start and have playmaking ability.

We are talking about full time playmaker v. part time play maker.

HotRoute 04-25-2010 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowMo2724 (Post 6712257)
He wouldn't have lasted 10 more picks I know that. I am not trying to hijack this Chiefs thread and turn it into another Tebow thread, but I think Tebow will be in the HOF when all is said and done.
hmmmmmmmmm............. lets not get ahead of ourselves now.

milkman 04-25-2010 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILChief (Post 6712492)
ironic. If you listened to all the CP wanna be Mel Kipers before the draft (when there was talk of the Chiefs being interested), Russell Okung was a POS that couldn't block me coming off the edge. Now that the Chiefs didn't take him he's the crown jewel of a great Seahawks draft.
No, that isn't what we said.

He does have problems with the bull rush and getting pushed staight back into the QB, so he isn't any better as a prospect than Albert is, which is why we argued that he shouldn't be the pick.

When Okung's sac continuously told us how he sealed the edge we simply told him he was full of shit.

But he was the top LT prospect in this draft, and the Seahawks had a legitimate need at LT, so he's a good pick for thier need.

But go ahead a be a ****ing dumbass.

Saccopoo 04-25-2010 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 6712241)
Hope that makes up for Tebow. What are you going to do with Clady now that you have a LH QB? Move him to RT?
If I were them, I'd leave Clady at LT and make Beadles your RT. He's been a top notch blindside defender in college and would easily slide over to the right side. They seriously upgraded their offensive line, and added a ton of play makers. Getting Thompson and Cox where they did was unbelievable.

I hate the ****ing Broncos, but they had a fantastic draft.

Saccopoo 04-25-2010 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712516)
No, that isn't what we said.

He does have problems with the bull rush and getting pushed staight back into the QB, so he isn't any better as a prospect than Albert is, which is why we argued that he shouldn't be the pick.

When Okung's sac continuously told us how he sealed the edge we simply told him he was full of shit.

But he was the top LT prospect in this draft, and the Seahawks had a legitimate need at LT, so he's a good pick for thier need.

But go ahead a be a ****ing dumbass.
There was simply a difference of opinion regarding Okung as it related to the Chiefs. The Drafturbators were fine with Albert. I wasn't. And since Okung played against a lot of guys who were high quality pass rushers and didn't give up a sack to them (Orakpo, Kindle, Sharpe, Miller, etc.), I felt he did a fantastic job of sealing the edge. However, the Seahawks didn't really have anyone at LT. Chiefs had a young guy that hopefully can develop.

Okung to the Seahawks was as good a pick and as necessary a pick as Berry to the Chiefs. Both teams were overjoyed that each were on the board when they picked.

ILChief 04-25-2010 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 6712528)
If I were them, I'd leave Clady at LT and make Beadles your RT. He's been a top notch blindside defender in college and would easily slide over to the right side. They seriously upgraded their offensive line, and added a ton of play makers. Getting Thompson and Cox where they did was unbelievable.

I hate the ****ing Broncos, but they had a fantastic draft.

I think the WR they took in the first sucks. And Tebow was perhaps the biggest reach in the history of the draft.

milkman 04-25-2010 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 6712537)
There was simply a difference of opinion regarding Okung as it related to the Chiefs. The Drafturbators were fine with Albert. I wasn't. And since Okung played against a lot of guys who were high quality pass rushers and didn't give up a sack to them (Orakpo, Kindle, Sharpe, Miller, etc.), I felt he did a fantastic job of sealing the edge. However, the Seahawks didn't really have anyone at LT. Chiefs had a young guy that hopefully can develop.

Okung to the Seahawks was as good a pick and as necessary a pick as Berry to the Chiefs. Both teams were overjoyed that each were on the board when they picked.
And what you called sealing the edge was, in fact, Okung getting pushed staright back into a QB who was getting rid of the ball far too quickly for Okung to be owned.

RedThat 04-25-2010 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laz (Post 6712439)
I hope Gosselin is right but i just don't see it.

imo there is no way that McCluster makes up for that fact that our run defense sucks ass.

imo there is no way Arenas improves the return game enough to make up for having bad linebackers in a 3-4 defense.
Yes Laz, you are absolutely right, but, there is a but there, one can also say they will improve our team overall.

McCluster will make the offense better. And Arenas will improve the return game, and I think he will contribute on defense as well. And you and I sure know this team REALLY needed a return man.

Saccopoo 04-25-2010 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILChief (Post 6712547)
I think the WR they took in the first sucks. And Tebow was perhaps the biggest reach in the history of the draft.
No, Tebow was going to go around that spot to someone. He's a Heisman trophy winner, a two time national champion, is physically prototype, and has all those intangibles. It wasn't a reach at all. Considering all the turds that have gone high as quarterbacks, such as Jamarcus Russell with the overall #1, I don't think that Tebow in the late first round is a stretch by any measure. Add to that that they got him for nothing (used the picks that they got from moving down), I think it's a hell of a pick.

And Demaryius Thomas was a legit first rounder by everyone's account. If he played in any other system other than Georgia Tech's wishbone, he would have put up staggering numbers.

SAUTO 04-25-2010 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712399)
But Gosselin gave our draft a good grade, and everyone says they'll take his words more than any one else, so, you can't just pick and choose which of his words carry more weight.
go to the walter thread and read your posts
Posted via Mobile Device

Saccopoo 04-25-2010 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712548)
And what you called sealing the edge was, in fact, Okung getting pushed staright back into a QB who was getting rid of the ball far too quickly for Okung to be owned.
Don't start. Fact is, he didn't give up a sack to some of the best pass rushers in college, OSU led the Big 12 in rushing and he was a big part of that.

You don't like him. Pete Carroll did.

orange 04-25-2010 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 6712253)
Where was he going to be picked if they didn't snag him at 25?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hog Farmer (Post 6712259)
He might have been the steal of the draft but he could have been stolen in the 5th round. McDaniels is a meth head.
Tebow went right where he was expected to go.
NEW YORK -- The hot spot for first-round trade movement? Try the bottom third of the round.

NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock predicted that teams would look to leap frog the Minnesota Vikings with the 30th overall pick for a chance at a quarterback.

That's where Mayock envisions teams such as the Buffalo Bills attempting to trade up from early in the second round to try and snag either former Florida QB Tim Tebow, the 2007 Heisman winner, or Texas QB Colt McCoy, the quarterback with an NCAA-record 45 wins in 53 career starts.

"I think we're going to get a lot more movement in the back third of the first round than we've ever seen,'' Mayock said. "Teams are going to scramble to get the third and fourth quarterbacks, Tebow and McCoy because after them, there's a dropoff.
Maybe you prefer King or Schefter:

Rotoworld:
Interested teams are discussing trades into the "final ten or so picks" of first round for a shot at Tim Tebow, according to SI.com's Peter King.

ESPN's Adam Schefter had an identical report, adding that the more he hears the more he believes Tebow will be a first-rounder. Schefter also expects Colt McCoy and Jimmy Clausen to go off the board in the first round. Denver and Buffalo appear to be the most likely destinations for Tebow.
Source: Peter King on Twitter

ILChief 04-25-2010 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 6712564)
No, Tebow was going to go around that spot to someone. He's a Heisman trophy winner, a two time national champion, is physically prototype, and has all those intangibles. It wasn't a reach at all. Considering all the turds that have gone high as quarterbacks, such as Jamarcus Russell with the overall #1, I don't think that Tebow in the late first round is a stretch by any measure. Add to that that they got him for nothing (used the picks that they got from moving down), I think it's a hell of a pick.

And Demaryius Thomas was a legit first rounder by everyone's account. If he played in any other system other than Georgia Tech's wishbone, he would have put up staggering numbers.
Even if you're correct, I doubt those guys will be better than Cutler and Marshall.

DaWolf 04-25-2010 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laz (Post 6712439)
I hope Gosselin is right but i just don't see it.

imo there is no way that McCluster makes up for that fact that our run defense sucks ass.

imo there is no way Arenas improves the return game enough to make up for having bad linebackers in a 3-4 defense.
I could look at it the other way as well.

There's no way Rookie Linebacker A makes up for the fact that we can't return a kick worth crap, of there's no way Rookie NT B makes up for the fact that Charles is the only guy on our otherwise slow ass offense who can break a big play, and he can't touch the ball on every play.

I don't think this team is in a position where it can pick and choose who it needs at certain spots, because the needs are everywhere. It's like one of those things where you plug one leak and another one springs open.

I think the guys running this show just looked at it and said we need guys like DJ and Studabaker and Dorsey and Jackson to step it up this year on D, but we have no one on O who is going to be able to step it up and provide the skills that maybe McCluster brings to the table. We'll see...

teedubya 04-25-2010 11:08 AM
I want some of what Rick Gosselin is smoking.

alanm 04-25-2010 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowMo2724 (Post 6712257)
He wouldn't have lasted 10 more picks I know that. I am not trying to hijack this Chiefs thread and turn it into another Tebow thread, but I think Tebow will be in the HOF when all is said and done.
Right next to Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell.

orange 04-25-2010 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanm (Post 6712594)
Right next to Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell.
Yes, because Tim Tebow is just like those two lazy-ass POSs. ROFL

bevischief 04-25-2010 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 6712593)
I want some of what Rick Gosselin is smoking.
Don't we all...
Posted via Mobile Device

Saccopoo 04-25-2010 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanm (Post 6712594)
Right next to Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell.
That's a perfect comparison - all the physical intangibles and they don't give one shit about the game.

Tebow loves the game and won't end up in Vegas like those other nitwits did right after they were drafted. At the very least you get a guy who loves to play the game and will work his ass off to make every effort to be a success in the league.

That's what separates Tebow from clown shoes like that. Thank you for making a perfect argument for Tebow versus other QB's that went high in the draft that nobody had a problem taking in their respective drafts.

Pitt Gorilla 04-25-2010 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzen (Post 6712285)
I think some people feel as though they are smarter than Pioli and Haley and could run a draft better. Sure, I was kind of scratching my head with some of those picks. But I think it's completely unfair and quite frankly, moronic to say they had a bad draft when we don't know how these guys will pan out. I have always felt that you can't judge a draft until at least 3-4 years down the road.

I will trust the guys at One Arrowhead for now and take a wait and see approach. I think they at least deserve that.

As for the LB corps and the NT position, I wish we would have addressed those. But I also wonder if they feel that they could not address all of those needs in this on draft. Perhaps we will see a FA or 2 and then they address the LB and NT issue in next year's draft.
To be fair, most CP posters have better access to film, run more private workouts for players, and hire more scouts than the Chiefs do. Most fans also have a better handle on the abilities of the current players and what our new staff thinks they can do with them. I thought that was fairly clear.

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 6712241)
Hope that makes up for Tebow. What are you going to do with Clady now that you have a LH QB? Move him to RT?
Did the Bengals move Munoz to right tackle because Esiason was a lefty?

Regardless of whether or not the QB is left handed or righthanded, you still need an elite left tackle to match up against an elite RDE.

milkman 04-25-2010 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla (Post 6712622)
To be fair, most CP posters have better access to film, run more private workouts for players, and hire more scouts than the Chiefs do. Most fans also have a better handle on the abilities of the current players and what our new staff thinks they can do with them. I thought that was fairly clear.
What a useless ****ing post.

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 6712242)
Interesting because I've been reading around and most everyone thinks the chiefs had a great draft.
Well, I know I'm in the minority but I liked this draft very much.

As I said about last year, if Pioli had taken Matthews, Cushing, Oher, Harvin, etc. at #3 overall, people would have bitched but Pioli would have been right.

This year, people are bitching but unlike last year, I think Pioli IS right this year.

You can find NT's and ILB on cut down day that can fill a need. What you can't find are the best young returners in the country, young playmaking slot receivers and young instinctive football players.

They'll probably only win 6-7 games this year. I think 2012 is the year they become a consistent playoff team, IF Pioli's plan works.

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 6712465)
This is pretty much my main complaint. I wanted 4 starters at the end of round 3 I think we got 2.
Two?

I disagree. I think Berry, McCluster, Arenas and Asamoah ALL start.

Plus, I think the term "starter" is bogus. There are plenty of NFL players that don't play all four downs that play 70% of the snaps.

Berry & Asamoah are three and four down players. McCluster is likely at least a two down player, if not a three down player for most of the game.

Arenas as a nickle may not play on first down, but he'll likely play on 2nd, 3rd and 4th down in addition to returns.

SAUTO 04-25-2010 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712666)
Well, I know I'm in the minority but I liked this draft very much.

As I said about last year, if Pioli had taken Matthews, Cushing, Oher, Harvin, etc. at #3 overall, people would have bitched but Pioli would have been right.

This year, people are bitching but unlike last year, I think Pioli IS right this year.

You can find NT's and ILB on cut down day that can fill a need. What you can't find are the best young returners in the country, young playmaking slot receivers and young instinctive football players.

They'll probably only win 6-7 games this year. I think 2012 is the year they become a consistent playoff team, IF Pioli's plan works.
thats a great post, and right on par with what you have said over the past year. consistant. he got what people wanted. playmaker, playmaker, playmaker, guard (good one and right around where people wanted one) what is there to bitch about?
Posted via Mobile Device

milkman 04-25-2010 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712686)
Two?

I disagree. I think Berry, McCluster, Arenas and Asamoah ALL start.

Plus, I think the term "starter" is bogus. There are plenty of NFL players that don't play all four downs that play 70% of the snaps.

Berry & Asamoah are three and four down players. McCluster is likely at least a two down player, if not a three down player for most of the game.

Arenas as a nickle may not play on first down, but he'll likely play on 2nd, 3rd and 4th down in addition to returns.
Starter may be a bogus term, however, if McCluster doesn't see at least 55% of the snaps on offense, and that's being generous, and Arenas doesn't play the nickel, and only ends up on the field for dime packages, then those are not good picks, any way you try to justify it.

ChiefMojo 04-25-2010 11:48 AM
I'm just love watching the draftbutors cry in their own tears... just makes this draft even better.

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 6712689)
thats a great post, and right on par with what you have said over the past year. consistant. he got what people wanted. playmaker, playmaker, playmaker, guard (good one and right around where people wanted one) what is there to bitch about?
Posted via Mobile Device
I'm excited and happy with all of the picks quiet honestly and I think Asamoah has the ability and opportunity to be a 10 years starter next to Albert. I'm a little disappointed that we weren't able to get a 10 year center this year but I hope that Weigman is more than adequate this season.

Albert/Asamoah/Weigman/Brown/O'C would be an enormous upgrade over last year.

philfree 04-25-2010 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712686)
Two?

I disagree. I think Berry, McCluster, Arenas and Asamoah ALL start.

Plus, I think the term "starter" is bogus. There are plenty of NFL players that don't play all four downs that play 70% of the snaps.

Berry & Asamoah are three and four down players. McCluster is likely at least a two down player, if not a three down player for most of the game.

Arenas as a nickle may not play on first down, but he'll likely play on 2nd, 3rd and 4th down in addition to returns.

I always said that Dane McCloud was a gentleman and a scholar.

PhilFree:arrow:

Baby Lee 04-25-2010 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanm (Post 6712594)
Right next to Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell.
Rick Mirer's a better comparison.

philfree 04-25-2010 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712708)
I'm excited and happy with all of the picks quiet honestly and I think Asamoah has the ability and opportunity to be a 10 years starter next to Albert. I'm a little disappointed that we weren't able to get a 10 year center this year but I hope that Weigman is more than adequate this season.

Albert/Asamoah/Weigman/Brown/O'C would be an enormous upgrade over last year.
I was thinking Albert/ Lilja/Weigman/Asamoah/O'C. Although Haley did say Lilja at RT.....:shrug:


PhilFree:arrow:

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712698)
Starter may be a bogus term, however, if McCluster doesn't see at least 55% of the snaps on offense, and that's being generous, and Arenas doesn't play the nickel, and only ends up on the field for dime packages, then those are not good picks, any way you try to justify it.
You're talking in absolutes: If, If, If.

These guys were brought in to play immediately. They're game changers.

The Chiefs NEEDED a real nickel back and a returner. The Chiefs NEEDED a guy like McCluster. I expect Weis to line him up all over the field.

I think the secondary is going to take a HUGE leap this year. I expect improvement from Mays and especially Belcher & Studebaker.

Personally, I'll take dynamic playmakers any day of the week over a NT or ILB. If the Chiefs had taken an ILB and NT, maybe the defense would be improved but the offense would still suck ass, as would the return game.

I'll take a guy that has the ability to take it to the house every time he touches the ball over a NT every single time. Especially when that NT is a questionable ****ing fat ass.

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by philfree (Post 6712717)
I was thinking Albert/ Lilja/Weigman/Asamoah/O'C. Although Haley did say Lilja at RT.....:shrug:


PhilFree:arrow:
Lilja at RT? Interesting. I guess I missed that statement. Last I read was that Lilja didn't know where he was lining up.

But either way, our line has completely changed with the selection of Asamoah.

chiefzilla1501 04-25-2010 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712411)
He has great sources for his final mock.

Does he use these sources to write his grades?
I believe he has good enough sources that he's extremely well qualified to talk about whether a pick was a reach or not. And if McCluster was a reach, he would have called the Chiefs out on it and they wouldn't have gotten an A+.

Just my thought. A lot of people have implied that McCluster was a reach or isn't worth a high second rounder. And my sense from Gosselin's grade is that he has sources that believe he was picked at just the right spot.

And if you pick a guy at the right spot to play a position you currently don't have, then that's pretty much taking a need-based BPA. And there's nothing wrong with that.

chiefzilla1501 04-25-2010 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 6712480)
A week ago, a statement like that gets you labeled a "True Fan".
100% QFT.

I thought a few weeks ago people were jumping up and down about drafting playmakers. I don't know when we turned into drafting for need.

tk13 04-25-2010 11:59 AM
Yeah, the good news is for the first time in a few years, we at least appear to have some options with the offensive line. And if one guy falls through we might have something to back up.

But our offense was pathetic, hopefully the depth chart looks better:

QB: Cassel
RB: Charles/Jones
WR: Bowe
WR: Chambers
WR: McCluster
TE: Moeaki

philfree 04-25-2010 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712720)
You're talking in absolutes: If, If, If.

These guys were brought in to play immediately. They're game changers.

The Chiefs NEEDED a real nickel back and a returner. The Chiefs NEEDED a guy like McCluster. I expect Weis to line him up all over the field.

I think the secondary is going to take a HUGE leap this year. I expect improvement from Mays and especially Belcher & Studebaker.

Personally, I'll take dynamic playmakers any day of the week over a NT or ILB. If the Chiefs had taken an ILB and NT, maybe the defense would be improved but the offense would still suck ass, as would the return game.

I'll take a guy that has the ability to take it to the house every time he touches the ball over a NT every single time. Especially when that NT is a questionable ****ing fat ass.
I agree. Also the Chiefs have been trying to fix the D by drafting for positional need for how many years now? It hasn't worked. Why would we want to continue down that path?


PhilFree:arrow:

TheGuardian 04-25-2010 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712666)
Well, I know I'm in the minority but I liked this draft very much.

As I said about last year, if Pioli had taken Matthews, Cushing, Oher, Harvin, etc. at #3 overall, people would have bitched but Pioli would have been right.

This year, people are bitching but unlike last year, I think Pioli IS right this year.

You can find NT's and ILB on cut down day that can fill a need. What you can't find are the best young returners in the country, young playmaking slot receivers and young instinctive football players.

They'll probably only win 6-7 games this year. I think 2012 is the year they become a consistent playoff team, IF Pioli's plan works.
That's a good take Dane. I am kind of a C+/B- on this draft but as we both know, shit changes once guys get on the field.

I do think that the return game HAD to be addressed as bad as anything. Last year I dreaded the kick and punts to us because it was like drinking diarrhea. That horrible.

so if McCluster turns into a playmaker and Arenas is Dante Hall 2 people won't say shit.

I'm also getting used to the idea that Pioli knows this will take a little bit of time and isn't trying to fix everything at once. Yeah it means we don't have good nose tackle or inside linebacker play this year, but we've been so awful from top to bottom I guess you gotta start somewhere.

SenselessChiefsFan 04-25-2010 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowMo2724 (Post 6712248)
Tebow was the steal of the draft IMO. I don't know what happens with our tackles, we got two blue chip tackles though with Clady and Harris so no matter what Denver is fine.
Wow, your tune changed as soon as you drafted Tebow. Before, it was, they are just doing their due diligence, they won't take him.... now, he is the steal of the draft.

Love it. keep it up. We can always use more objectivity in here.

Coogs 04-25-2010 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712666)
Well, I know I'm in the minority but I liked this draft very much.

As I said about last year, if Pioli had taken Matthews, Cushing, Oher, Harvin, etc. at #3 overall, people would have bitched but Pioli would have been right.

This year, people are bitching but unlike last year, I think Pioli IS right this year.

You can find NT's and ILB on cut down day that can fill a need. What you can't find are the best young returners in the country, young playmaking slot receivers and young instinctive football players.

They'll probably only win 6-7 games this year. I think 2012 is the year they become a consistent playoff team, IF Pioli's plan works.
I'm in. I love the draft. It is clear they gave Cassel all the tools he needs to be successful. Now it is on him to make this thing go. All the needs could not be filled in this draft. But some important ones were.

There will be more free agency, and another draft next year to take care of other needs.

SenselessChiefsFan 04-25-2010 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712666)
Well, I know I'm in the minority but I liked this draft very much.

As I said about last year, if Pioli had taken Matthews, Cushing, Oher, Harvin, etc. at #3 overall, people would have bitched but Pioli would have been right.

This year, people are bitching but unlike last year, I think Pioli IS right this year.

You can find NT's and ILB on cut down day that can fill a need. What you can't find are the best young returners in the country, young playmaking slot receivers and young instinctive football players.

They'll probably only win 6-7 games this year. I think 2012 is the year they become a consistent playoff team, IF Pioli's plan works.
Hey, I just want to let you know that I agree with you....so you may want to rethink your position.

milkman 04-25-2010 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGuardian (Post 6712741)
That's a good take Dane. I am kind of a C+/B- on this draft but as we both know, shit changes once guys get on the field.

I do think that the return game HAD to be addressed as bad as anything. Last year I dreaded the kick and punts to us because it was like drinking diarrhea. That horrible.

so if McCluster turns into a playmaker and Arenas is Dante Hall 2 people won't say shit.

I'm also getting used to the idea that Pioli knows this will take a little bit of time and isn't trying to fix everything at once. Yeah it means we don't have good nose tackle or inside linebacker play this year, but we've been so awful from top to bottom I guess you gotta start somewhere.
If McCluster turns into a playmaker that sees the field more than 50% of the snaps, I'll say something.

I'll admit that I was wrong about the value he brings.

The same for Arenas.

On the positive side of things, I absolutely love the selection of Berry and Asamoah.

Deberg_1990 04-25-2010 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 6712735)
But our offense was pathetic, hopefully the depth chart looks better:

QB: Cassel
RB: Charles/Jones
WR: Bowe
WR: Chambers
WR: McCluster
TE: Moeaki
Id still like to see them sign T.O for a year or two...i think he could help.....but not sure he would take a backup WR role?

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 (Post 6712761)
Id still like to see them sign T.O for a year or two...i think he could help.....but not sure he would take a backup WR role?
There is NO WAY that Pioli, after stressing character in the draft by selecting team captains and leaders, is going to bring a guy with the "me, me, me" attitude of Terrel Owens.

Forget it.

milkman 04-25-2010 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 6712729)
I believe he has good enough sources that he's extremely well qualified to talk about whether a pick was a reach or not. And if McCluster was a reach, he would have called the Chiefs out on it and they wouldn't have gotten an A+.

Just my thought. A lot of people have implied that McCluster was a reach or isn't worth a high second rounder. And my sense from Gosselin's grade is that he has sources that believe he was picked at just the right spot.

And if you pick a guy at the right spot to play a position you currently don't have, then that's pretty much taking a need-based BPA. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I don't question McCluster's place in this draft in terms of how high he was taken.

I question the wisdom of taking player that I see as a part time player by the Chiefs.

But I'm done with this.

I'll wait to see how things play out and hope that these guys prove to be the answeres that you and others think they are.

Frankie 04-25-2010 12:15 PM
1 Attachment(s)
WTF?!! LMAO

chiefzilla1501 04-25-2010 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712768)
I don't question McCluster's place in this draft in terms of how high he was taken.

I question the wisdom of taking player that I see as a part time player by the Chiefs.

But I'm done with this.

I'll wait to see how things play out and hope that these guys prove to be the answeres that you and others think they are.
Fair enough. A lot of this is extremely dependent on these guys being very good at what they do. Arenas has to be very good at nickel and outstanding as a returner to match the value of, say, missing out on Cody. And McCluster needs to be an electric playmaker, regardless of his snaps, to justify passing on someone like Kindle. That's something I get and I was horribly wrong on Tyson Jackson and Matt Cassel, so I recognize that there is a far greater expectation for these guys.

So I'm with you on the "wait and see" part. I like the picks only if they live up to certain standards.

Coogs 04-25-2010 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712768)
I don't question McCluster's place in this draft in terms of how high he was taken.

I question the wisdom of taking player that I see as a part time player by the Chiefs.

But I'm done with this.

I'll wait to see how things play out and hope that these guys prove to be the answeres that you and others think they are.
Welker is the slot receiver for the Patriots, correct? And isn't he on the field damn near every single offensive play?

And for the Cards, didn't they have 3 receivers on the field nearly every single play?

I could be wrong, but 3 receiver sets seem to be the favorite offense of both of those teams.

Just Passin' By 04-25-2010 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712431)
I don't give a rat's ass about Jimmy Clasen.

Never once have I said that he's a guy that I wanted.

I have always said that I wasn't sold on him.

This isn't about any specific player.

This is about full time players vs. part time players.
Interesting.

Full-time players in the Weiss offense:

O-line
QB
WR1
WR3
TE1

The team has a WR1 and WR2, drafted a TE, added multiple pieces to its O-line during the offseason and draft, and seems to have a different take on the QB position than the complainers here. You don't like Clausen, so it should be safe to say that not taking a QB was not a problem, right?

That means the team did what you wanted on offense. If he pans out, McCluster probably will be used in some hybrid of the Welker/Branch days in New England

As for defense, it's going to depend on Crennel's approach. Just as a reference, NE has been taking the NT off the field on passing downs, plays a lot of nickel and dime, and pulls run stuffer type ILBs off the field on passing plays.

If Crennel is going to look in that direction, the draft would seem to have set up for that, although I certainly understand the concerns about NT and OLB. It may just have been a matter of filling some holes knowing others are still huge problems.

New England's been dealing with the OLB problem for a couple of years now, for example. The draft hasn't been a solution so far due to injury (they don't even know if the guys can play because neither OLB drafted in the past two years has gotten an injury-free season to develop), and I'm sure the Patriots would be happy to send you Adalius Thomas. ;)

Deberg_1990 04-25-2010 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712767)
There is NO WAY that Pioli, after stressing character in the draft by selecting team captains and leaders, is going to bring a guy with the "me, me, me" attitude of Terrel Owens.

Forget it.
heh...yea, i just realized that. :)

LaChapelle 04-25-2010 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie (Post 6712779)
WTF?!! LMAO
Do we get Lewis and Sheffield them the first half the year or does the Fins :shrug:

milkman 04-25-2010 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By (Post 6712806)
Interesting.

Full-time players in the Weiss offense:

O-line
QB
WR1
WR3
TE1

The team has a WR1 and WR2, drafted a TE, added multiple pieces to its O-line during the offseason and draft, and seems to have a different take on the QB position than the complainers here. You don't like Clausen, so it should be safe to say that not taking a QB was not a problem, right?

That means the team did what you wanted on offense. If he pans out, McCluster probably will be used in some hybrid of the Welker/Branch days in New England

As for defense, it's going to depend on Crennel's approach. Just as a reference, NE has been taking the NT off the field on passing downs, plays a lot of nickel and dime, and pulls run stuffer type ILBs off the field on passing plays.

If Crennel is going to look in that direction, the draft would seem to have set up for that, although I certainly understand the concerns about NT and OLB. It may just have been a matter of filling some holes knowing others are still huge problems.

New England's been dealing with the OLB problem for a couple of years now, for example. The draft hasn't been a solution so far due to injury (they don't even know if the guys can play because neither OLB drafted in the past two years has gotten an injury-free season to develop), and I'm sure the Patriots would be happy to send you Adalius Thomas. ;)
Yeah, I have no problem wahtsoever with passing on Clausen.

But, in a way, I guess I'm still old school and still love my defense and wanted to see that fixed, and other Berry, I don't see it.

We've had such a crappy defense for so long, it makes me cranky.

Mosbonian 04-25-2010 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 6712785)
Fair enough. A lot of this is extremely dependent on these guys being very good at what they do. Arenas has to be very good at nickel and outstanding as a returner to match the value of, say, missing out on Cody. And McCluster needs to be an electric playmaker, regardless of his snaps, to justify passing on someone like Kindle. That's something I get and I was horribly wrong on Tyson Jackson and Matt Cassel, so I recognize that there is a far greater expectation for these guys.

So I'm with you on the "wait and see" part. I like the picks only if they live up to certain standards.
But Cody and Kindle come with just as much baggage as what you infer in McCluster and Arenas, with less upside. Cody is questioned because of his work ethic and weight issues, and Kindle's injury makes his susceptible to further deterioration because it was a leg injury.

mmaddog
********

Mosbonian 04-25-2010 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712822)
.....it makes me cranky.
This part we are all used to.... :p

mmaddog
********

milkman 04-25-2010 12:26 PM
Oh, and I just don't think that Crennel is the miracle worker that some seem to think he is.

chiefzilla1501 04-25-2010 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaddog (Post 6712823)
But Cody and Kindle come with just as much baggage as what you infer in McCluster and Arenas, with less upside. Cody is questioned because of his work ethic and weight issues, and Kindle's injury makes his susceptible to further deterioration because it was a leg injury.

mmaddog
********
Trust me. Been harping on this all day. But milkman has a point that when you're talking about a nickel back/returner or a RB/slot WR passing up on a 3-4 OLB/NT, the bar needs to be a little higher. If they're both adequate at best at what they do, it was a very wrong pick. They need to be very, very good at their positions, because they carry much lower positional value. Same applies in spades for Berry.

chiefzilla1501 04-25-2010 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712830)
Oh, and I just don't think that Crennel is the miracle worker that some seem to think he is.
I think he runs a bit of a dated defense. All the more reason to hitch the wagon on Weis instead.

I think Romeo, with time, can build this defense into a competitive one. But I don't think it will be anywhere near as dominant as it was during the Pats' dynasty.

One thing I do know is that I think he'll get a lot more mileage out of young D-linemen. He's a terrific D-line coach, at the very least.

Coogs 04-25-2010 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712822)
Yeah, I have no problem wahtsoever with passing on Clausen.

But, in a way, I guess I'm still old school and still love my defense and wanted to see that fixed, and other Berry, I don't see it.

We've had such a crappy defense for so long, it makes me cranky.
I understand. However, the secondary really needed an overhaul, just a bad as the front 7. If we have a secondary now of that is the caliber of some of our all time great secondarys then this is a great starting point. Lets see what these young guys we brought in the last couple of seasons develop into up front. maybe we have more there than we know. Maybe Jackson, Mcgee, Dorsey, Studabaker and the likes really start to blossem into the players they drafted/picked them up to be this year.

Just Passin' By 04-25-2010 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712822)
Yeah, I have no problem wahtsoever with passing on Clausen.

But, in a way, I guess I'm still old school and still love my defense and wanted to see that fixed, and other Berry, I don't see it.

We've had such a crappy defense for so long, it makes me cranky.
I see your points on all of this. A bad defense puts a lot of pressure on even a great offense. The Chiefs are in dire need of LBs and an NT. I thought they'd target an NT in round 2, myself. I, personally, would give them a pass because the team has so many holes to fill from years of decay, but I can certainly understand where a "defense!" guy would be getting impatient.

The only thing I can tell you is that I think there might well be some pretty good players getting the axe this offseason, as teams take advantage of the uncapped year to bring payroll down. Lord knows that I'm hoping someone springs loose that can play DE for New England. The dynamic duo of Damione Lewis and Gerard Warren just doesn't inspire confidence in me.

The Bad Guy 04-25-2010 12:37 PM
Anyone who calls Tebow the steal of the draft doesn't deserve to watch the NFL. How can you be a steal when you get drafted about a round and a half before you are supposed to go?

You can't teach someone accuracy.

Does Knowshit offer anything on this board? He's KCJohnny without the obnoxious religious and military messages. I've finally put his loser ass on ignore.

tk13 04-25-2010 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712830)
Oh, and I just don't think that Crennel is the miracle worker that some seem to think he is.
I don't either. But I hope he's better than Pendergast... and miles better than Krumrie. But we'll see.

Coogs 04-25-2010 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 6712907)
To be fair, you only love the Chiefs' draft because you're a member of the Oakland Raiders now.
Huh?

Reaper16 04-25-2010 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs (Post 6712909)
Huh?
****. In my sleep-deprived haze I thought that Groves posted that. I'm deleting my post out of shame.

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 6712907)
To be fair, you only love the Chiefs' draft because you're a member of the Oakland Raiders now.
This is ridiculous.

SI and Rick Gosselin think the Chiefs drafts were A+ (Better than Seattle) but I read from a few snarky know-it-alls that because they passed on a ****ing fatass, lazy NT or didn't draft an ILB or broke OLB in the second, Pioli's a moron and the Chiefs are doomed to suck.

Meanwhile, if they HAD taken any of those guys, they all come with significant risks. There is no more risk than usual in an NFL draft by taking a playmaker in McCluster who can virtually play at any skill position on offense or the most dynamic returner (and a damn good CB).

The level of faux outrage displayed by some is completely ****ing laughable AND predictable.

Baby Lee 04-25-2010 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712760)
If McCluster turns into a playmaker that sees the field more than 50% of the snaps, I'll say something.

I'll admit that I was wrong about the value he brings.

The same for Arenas.

On the positive side of things, I absolutely love the selection of Berry and Asamoah.
What with the biggest problem with the D, aside from not showing up at all on occasion, like when Dorsey is out for a game, being;

1st & 10
2nd & 9
3rd and 8 1/2

BOOM! 20 yard play.

I'd think as nickel/dime corner would merit a different calculus.

Like, if he's on the field a significant amount of 3rd downs and well really improve on 3 and out.

Reaper16 04-25-2010 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712916)
This is ridiculous.

SI and Rick Gosselin think the Chiefs drafts were A+ (Better than Seattle) but I read from a few snarky know-it-alls that because they passed on a ****ing fatass, lazy NT or didn't draft an ILB or broke OLB in the second, Pioli's a moron and the Chiefs are doomed to suck.

Meanwhile, if they HAD taken any of those guys, they all come with significant risks. There is no more risk than usual in an NFL draft by taking a playmaker in McCluster who can virtually play at any skill position on offense or the most dynamic returner (and a damn good CB).

The level of faux outrage displayed by some is completely ****ing laughable AND predictable.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Mostly because I have no idea what I'm talking about -- the post you quoted was a botched joke because I misread someone's username.

dirk digler 04-25-2010 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712916)
This is ridiculous.

SI and Rick Gosselin think the Chiefs drafts were A+ (Better than Seattle) but I read from a few snarky know-it-alls that because they passed on a ****ing fatass, lazy NT or didn't draft an ILB or broke OLB in the second, Pioli's a moron and the Chiefs are doomed to suck.

Meanwhile, if they HAD taken any of those guys, they all come with significant risks. There is no more risk than usual in an NFL draft by taking a playmaker in McCluster who can virtually play at any skill position on offense or the most dynamic returner (and a damn good CB).

The level of faux outrage displayed by some is completely ****ing laughable AND predictable.
Who hacked into Dane's account?

notorious 04-25-2010 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712916)
This is ridiculous.

SI and Rick Gosselin think the Chiefs drafts were A+ (Better than Seattle) but I read from a few snarky know-it-alls that because they passed on a ****ing fatass, lazy NT or didn't draft an ILB or broke OLB in the second, Pioli's a moron and the Chiefs are doomed to suck.

Meanwhile, if they HAD taken any of those guys, they all come with significant risks. There is no more risk than usual in an NFL draft by taking a playmaker in McCluster who can virtually play at any skill position on offense or the most dynamic returner (and a damn good CB).

The level of faux outrage displayed by some is completely ****ing laughable AND predictable.


Yes.

I am tired of the glass half-empty mentality. It's time to look at what we did get out of the draft:



A mean and nasty bastard for the OLine

Possibly the best safety in the NFL for the next 10 years

Two fantastic playmakers that can change a game on ONE play

A TE, if he can stay healthy, will be in the top 10 TE's in the NFL.

Coogs 04-25-2010 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 6712912)
****. In my sleep-deprived haze I thought that Groves posted that. I'm deleting my post out of shame.
:thumb:

DaneMcCloud 04-25-2010 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 6712921)
I have no idea what you're talking about. Mostly because I have no idea what I'm talking about -- the post you quoted was a botched joke because I misread someone's username.
What I'm talking about are some of the members here screaming and whining and bitching that THEIR players weren't chosen.

FTR, I happen to like most of those guys quite a bit and communicate with them outside of the forum. I have great respect for them as human beings and our friendships.

I just happen to think they're wrong.

Passing up a franchise QB for a ****ing 5 tech is criminal. Drafting for a one year wonder was flat out dumb. Taking another 5 tech and a junior CB with issues was asinine. I've complained about all of those moves for the past year and I haven't changed my opinion.

But in taking the best safety prospect in a decade, two dynamic players, a ****ing stud guard and a TE with a gigantic upside, I have absolutely NO complaints. I like the 5th round selections as well.

I think this 40 time bullshit is overrated as well. Scouts look at two things: How fast a guy plays (projected 40 time) and his 40 time. If his projected time is faster than his actual time, that means he's an instinctual player on defense. There have been plenty of "fast" draft choices (Gholston, DJ, etc.) that can't play at the next level consistently (or at all) because they aren't instinctive football players.

The bottom line is that the Chiefs DID address needs in the 2010 draft but obviously not the "needs" that some felt were necessary this year.

notorious 04-25-2010 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 6712921)
I have no idea what you're talking about. Mostly because I have no idea what I'm talking about
LMAO

Rep for honesty.

patteeu 04-25-2010 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712501)
We aren't talking about taking O-Lineman here.

We are talking foundational player that could come in and start and have playmaking ability.

We are talking about full time playmaker v. part time play maker.
Yeah, I understand what you're talking about and I understand that there's a difference in how the word "foundational" is being used. I just thought it was funny how it sounded so much like the arguments that the OL fans get blasted for.

I don't agree with your full time versus part time distinction though. At least not in the context of these picks against some of the guys that the "playmaker" advocates (maybe not you) were calling for (e.g. Spiller, Tate, Haden, Gilyard, etc.)

Reaper16 04-25-2010 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 6712967)
What I'm talking about are some of the members here screaming and whining and bitching that THEIR players weren't chosen.

FTR, I happen to like most of those guys quite a bit and communicate with them outside of the forum. I have great respect for them as human beings and our friendships.

I just happen to think they're wrong.

Passing up a franchise QB for a ****ing 5 tech is criminal. Drafting for a one year wonder was flat out dumb. Taking another 5 tech and a junior CB with issues was asinine. I've complained about all of those moves for the past year and I haven't changed my opinion.

But in taking the best safety prospect in a decade, two dynamic players, a ****ing stud guard and a TE with a gigantic upside, I have absolutely NO complaints. I like the 5th round selections as well.

I think this 40 time bullshit is overrated as well. Scouts look at two things: How fast a guy plays (projected 40 time) and his 40 time. If his projected time is faster than his actual time, that means he's an instinctual player on defense. There have been plenty of "fast" draft choices (Gholston, DJ, etc.) that can't play at the next level consistently (or at all) because they aren't instinctive football players.

The bottom line is that the Chiefs DID address needs in the 2010 draft but obviously not the "needs" that some felt were necessary this year.
And that is why I haven't been yelling at you or calling you names since yesterday -- we may have some disagreements regarding this draft but your positions are well-argued and sensible. I was disappointed though when you called me out for faux outrage, implying that I would have bitched no matter what happened in the draft.

bowener 04-25-2010 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowMo2724 (Post 6712248)
Tebow was the steal of the draft IMO. I don't know what happens with our tackles, we got two blue chip tackles though with Clady and Harris so no matter what Denver is fine.
I don't think a player can be a "steal" if they are drafted in the 1st round, and the team that drafted them traded up to draft them 2 rounds before the player was expected to go. The best you can hope for is that he at least justifies his draft position. He will never be known as a steal.

patteeu 04-25-2010 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkman (Post 6712822)
Yeah, I have no problem wahtsoever with passing on Clausen.

But, in a way, I guess I'm still old school and still love my defense and wanted to see that fixed, and other Berry, I don't see it.

We've had such a crappy defense for so long, it makes me cranky.
I hear that. I was looking forward to a defense heavy draft with some combination of a superstar safety, a pass rushing OLB, and either a ILB or a big NT or both to handle the middle because I miss the days of strong defense in KC. It looks like the Chiefs decided to take a different approach. Even though it's different though, it seems rational to me so I'm cautiously optimistic that their plan will pay off.


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