how does that not matter?

They used a 2nd, 4th and a 7th and in return they got Randy Moss and Wes Welker...

Those are draft picks.

THEY USED TWO DRAFT PICKS AND IN RETURN THEY GOT TWO ALL-PRO CALIBER RECEIVERS.

That's a win.

well then he's an idiot, too...

they bought Moss for $0.10 on the dollar with a 4th round pick...and Welker for $0.25 on the dollar with a 2nd round pick (and a throw in 7th)...

WHICH MEANS...

2007 was one of their best drafts...ever.

EVER.

How is this so hard to comprehend?

You forgot Adam Vinatieri for your group, and Ty Law also.

But no team has 100% roster turnover in 2 years. And most of those guys were from the Parcells era, which meant they fit Belichick's schemes better than the guys that had been brought in during the post-Tuna, pre BB era.

BB brought in these stiffs (during the SB winning seasons only): Tom Brady, Matt Light, Dan Koppen, Deion Branch, David Givens, Daniel Graham, Stephen Neal, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Ty Warren....

it's worthless...

these guys are just trying to further push their anti-Pioli agenda...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. No team hits 100% on the draft, and of course you use free agency to fill holes. Every team does.

I admit the '06 and '08 drafts by the Patriots weren't great. But who the ehll doesn't trade a 2nd for Welker and a 4 for Moss? Eh? WHO DOESN'T DO THAT?!?!

Is that covering for draft failures at the WR position (Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson)? Sure, I guess. But if Ozzie Newsome and Bill Polian were perfect, they'd probably have more than 1 SB apiece in the last decade, no?

Look, trading for Moss in a vacuum with nothing else factored in is a great move, I never said it wasn't, I like Moss as a player.

It's that while he's aging they've got nothing behind him at the position. The same can be said for numerous others, when you have 15 picks every year at the very least your team should have solid depth, you shouldn't have Sam Aiken getting WR playing time or starting a scrub RB in a league where a 5th rounder will pull a starting RB.

Trading for Moss and Welker is not the problem, the problem is those are the best things they've done with their picks because they've missed a ton as of late.

Well, I would be fi I actually said what thye're saying I said...
This. Especially when 2007 was a weak draft overall.

Wow. I hope the Patriots can make the playoffs or win a Super Bowl in my lifetime, considering the s****y GM I'm stuck with....

yeah...Green Bay is so much better than New England at drafting!

ROFL

2007: Justin Harrell
Brandon Jackson
James Jones
Aaron Rouse
Allen Barbre
David Clowney
Korey Hall
Desmond Bishop
Mason Crosby
DeShawn Wynn
Clark Harris



2008: Jordy Nelson
Brian Brohm
Patrick Lee
Jermichael Finley
Jeremy Thompson
Josh Sitton
Breno Giacomini
Matt Flynn
Brett Swain

See the thing is...

Green Bay IS a good drafting team...

Those two drafts have WAY more fail in them than success...

JUST LIKE ALMOST EVERY TEAM, EVERY YEAR...

More misses than hits...for EVERY team.

But we have these "message board gurus" who complain about 5th-7th round picks when, in all honesty, the odds of them working out are SLIM AND NONE.

Look at the Packers...

Their best picks were Jermichael Finley and Jordy "I'm a #4 WR and a return specialist" Nelson...

Yet Mecca envies them because...?

Basically...Green Bay has made a few good picks over the last 5 years...

Aaron Rodgers, Greg Jennings, Nick Collins and Jermichael Finley are the most notable...

So had the Chiefs taken Aaron Rodgers instead of Derrick Johnson in 2005 the Chiefs would be an amazing drafting team...

In mecca's eyes...

Oh wait a second...no they wouldn't...because they are the Chiefs...and if Aaron Rodgers were a Chief...he would be super overrated...because Mecca is a ****ing moron.

Except the other teams yu praise such as the Ravens have struggled to draft a good WR too.

Green Bay 1st round picks since 2000:

Bubba Franks
Jamal Reynolds
Javon Walker
Nick Barnett
Ahmad Carroll
Aaron Rodgers
A.J. Hawk
Justin Harrell
B.J. Raji
Clay Matthews
Brian Bulaga

But Derrick Mason wasn't brought in to cover up drafting failures!! Only the Patriots do that!!!

my point being:

(and my point when I coined the term drafturbators...)

These draft "gurus" expect WAY too much out of the draft...they expect every pick to be some sort of hit...whether it's the 1st round or the 7th round...

when in reality...

That's just not how it happens...

Most teams have 1-3 star players...5-10 quality players that would start on most teams...10-15 system players...and the rest are filled out by need, specialties, etc...

and the 4th-7th round is important because you can fill out your roster with young guys, pay them peanuts compared to the veteran minimum, and perhaps with coaching ONE OR TWO of them will pan out to become tier 1 or tier 2 players...

But they expect that out of every 3rd and 4th round pick and if you go look at the last 5 years of the draft...

go see how many 2nd day picks make pro bowls...or are all-pro caliber players...

:facepalm:

I forgot questioning the Patriots is not ok, I hope you enjoy your 82 TE's.

basically...

if the salary cap were never to return...

the draft would become less and less important...especially on day 3

I'll take ours:

2000: None (traded for Bill Belichick, big win!)
2001: Richard Seymour
2002: Daniel Graham
2003: Ty Warren
2004: Vince Wilfork and Ben Watson
2005: Logan Mankins
2006: Laurence Maroney (worst one)
2007: Brandon Meriweather
2008: Jerod Mayo
2009: None (traded out)
2010: Devin McCourty

:LOL:

the classic Mecca deflection....

we lay out 20 posts FULL of evidence...he realizes he's a dipshit...and he tries to deflect the attention

way to go, guy!

You are such a pro/college football guru!

Do you even know that we entered the draft with precisely TWO TEs on the entire 80 man roster, of whom one was over 30 years old, and the other had never played a down in the NFL?

Watson and Graham left. The other TEs didn't pan out. What don't you get?

well on surface Green Bay's does look better because of Aaron Rodgers but that doesn't take into account Tom Brady being a Patriot...so yeah, the Patriots do a good job building around Tom Brady and Bill Belichick...and they've done it for years.

I hate the ****ing Patriots...I really do.

But I couldn't pick a better team for the Chiefs to try and model than the team that has OWNED the salary cap era of the NFL for the past decade...

and the anti-Pioli agenda is just laughable now...

Dane, one of the biggest Pioli haters because of the 2009 offseason...even sees it now...these guys are just out to bitch...everyone loved the draft...every single expert these guys have quoted for the last 4 months...

but that doesn't work for them...they want to hate...

It's ridiculous and sad...these members are sad, sad, sad "fans"...and really make this board NOTHING but negative.

First and foremost Aaron Rodgers is the current GB GM's first pick so he starts there.

Secondly, how many TE's have the Patriots drafted overall? Since some of them aren't on the team anymore doesn't mean they haven't used a bunch of picks on TE's. It's a ton...they used a 3rd rounder on a guy like David Thomas. They've cut and traded several but that team has traded a ton of TE's, so much so it's a running joke in some ways.

Also the idea that anyone is anti Pioli is ****ing hilarious, this is not Nazi Germany, we can debate and question shit.

yeah, BB is a running joke in the NFL...

LMAO

Mecca...

the moron!

three years ago on this board it was...

YOU TAKE THE BPA!

now it's...

YOU TAKE THE BPA AT YOUR POSITION OF MOST NEED!

Mecca makes a good point about drafting all those tight ends though I disagree with the larger point about BB.


As for Pioli being a good drafter? Thats a ****ing joke.

One question:

Did Pioli **** up with Cassel?

we'll see around week 8

If Sanchez plays like he did in the playoffs yes.

Honestly, if you give up a 2nd round pick and throw 30 mil at the dude and still don't know what you have until halfway through the second season...Id say that would qualify as a **** up

Perception and reality aren't really well aligned here.

We took a TE in the first round twice. Both picks were fine -- solid starters, but unspectacular and therefore somewhat disappointing. Those picks were made in 2002 and 2004.

Starting from the 2003 draft, here's what the Patriots have "spent" on TE in terms of picks:

2003: 7th
2004: 1st
2005: 7th
2006: 3rd and 4th
2007: None
2008: None
2009: None

The 2004 is gone now via FA. The 2006 3rd and 4th round selections didn't pan out well, but they are 3rd and 4th round picks -- they DO have a less than 90'ish percent chance of success in the NFL I do believe.

Now can you please sit here and explain to me, because I"m obviously so dense I can't comprehend it, your brilliant argument at how the Patriots have spent massive resources on TEs and why they should have a roster chock full of All Pros at the position?

So, having established that he ****ed up on Cassel, would it be even more of a **** up to not address the most important position on the team, and to extend that even further, mortgage the future by making selections to try and cover up the fact that you ****ed up in the first place?

Your post makes no sense on several levels.

First, it hasn't been determined that Cassell is a f'up.

Second, are you saying that a good QB doesn't need talent around him? You only need talent on offense if your QB sucks. So if you draft good offensive players you can't actually use them when you get a good QB?

Does that make any frickin' sense at all?

Check my subsequent post. The whole TE thing is waaay overblown, including by most Patriots fans, because (1) we spent two first round picks on them, BUT IT WAS A LONG (IN NFL TERMS) TIME AGO, and (2) most picks were low round picks.

He's referencing Cassel's contract so I don't really know how Patrick Chung is relevant.

Once you realize that the Cassel trade was a **** up, you are free.

Unbind yourself.

Well, if that were to be true...which it will never be( Cassel actually = Gannon on a menstrual cycle day ), Cassel is a tuck rule waiting to happen in the playoffs.
He's more bad NE-karma just waiting to be reaped in a high-stakes situation like that.

How did Hootie get to be so ****ing reeruned? He's gonna' "Manning" his money right down the pisser again?

Good job, ****tard! :thumb:

That made me laugh I won't lie.

Cassel's upside is pretty limited that's the issue here.

Sorry, I completely whiffed on that he was discussing what was traded FOR Cassel, and the contract he was given.

Hey, we got Patrick Chung out of it. If he's a good safety for us, then it wan't a **** up for us.

I'm on the other side of that coin from you guys. :p

It happens, maybe we'll all be wrong and Cassel will be fine, seriously I'd rather be wrong, being right really doesn't do much other than mean I get to watch more shitty football.

good qbs make others around them better. cassel has not done that yet. by this definition of 'good qb,' cassel has not been a good qb. you do not give qbs who are 'not good' contracts like he got and trade picks for qbs who are 'not good.'

Do you guys think that Pioli thought/thinks that Cassel is the next Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, or that he's the next Phil Simms?

If anyone thought he was the former, then the Patriots wouldn't have only gotten a 2 out of it, right?

And if he's the latter, then he needs precisely what Pioli is giving him, right?

We're basically taking a backwards approach, instead of our QB making everyone else better, we're getting guys to make our QB look better...especially by getting checkdown receivers for a guy who can't throw down field.

Yeah, but there's limits to that. Wilt Chamberlain couldn't beat Russell with his "4 cheerleaders" either.

Jordan needed Pippen.

Peyton can't do it all, obviously.

The list is endless. Making others around them better may get the 2009 Chiefs from shitty to sucky, but it's still sucky.

Haven't you watched the NFL in the last 10 years? You think Brady won 3 Super Bowls by chucking 20 yards downfield?

You want to win, or just win YOUR way, presumably with Mad Bomber Lamonica calling the shots.

I get your point, the problem is when you sit down and watch, it wasn't like Cassel was out there playing his balls off and everyone was letting him down. He was just as much of a problem as everyone else was.

He better be using this entire offseason to practice properly throwing passes that travel more than 10 yards downfield.

Ok you're misreading me, I'm not saying you have to throw bombs, but you have to at least have the threat of it.

A intermediate pass 10-20 yards is not asking that much either, the problem is Cassel is so inaccurate the further he gets downfield no team in the league respects those passes so the short passing game is clamped on.

Matt Cassel literally becomes a horrendous QB when the pass needs to travel longer than roughly 8 yards.

but jordan looked dominant with nobody around him (other than an aging gervin, IIRC) in his rookie year. peyton looked great his rookie year with little around him (other than a marvin harrison who hadn't shown much in his career and if memory serves, marshall faulk)--26 tds, 28 ints. chamberlain didn't look like shit while he was putting up mad numbers.

I recall a few brief moments where cassel looked a bit better than absolute ass. but he never looked up to jordan or peyton levels (bringing up those around him). you have to show more than a few flashes--and I'm not convinced I saw more than one or two flashes. in the nfl today, you need one of those top qbs to win. at this moment, we don't have one of those guys.

You exaggerate. He can throw deep outs and such. He has a perfectly decent NFL arm. What he doesn't have is touch on deep balls to get them over defender's heads.

And I said that when he was first traded to you guys. It's an issue, and he'll need to overcome it or he'll always be a pretty limited QB. If he can master it, however, he'll do very well.

that's actually one thing that makes me mildly optimistic... one could say that weis was one of the main causes of brady's success. if we're lucky, weis can mold whatever raw talent cassel has (I'm not sure how much is there, I'm no nfl scout) and turn him into something we haven't seen before. brady wasn't always brady, if you know what I mean.

First, you don't need a "top" QB to win. Brady wasn't really a "top" QB in 2001. He was a game manager. Roethlisberger has won twice by being a very good (not great) QB with a very good or great running game and defense in support.

Eli Freaking Manning won by defense, as did the Ravens in 2000 and the Bucs in, err, whatever year they won it. '02 I guess.

But you do need an above-average QB. Average probably doesn't get it done unless you have an epic level defense.

Second, football isn't like the other sports. The QB can look a bit ridiculous if he hasn't got much talent around him because the offense needs to be a precision instrument. And citing Manning's rookie year isn't necessarily relevant -- I think we all agree CAssel doesn't have his upside.

The question is what is his upper limit. I think it's a top half of the NFL QB, at least.

Agree with all of this, no question.

unfortunately, average would've been an improvement last year. dude, you apparently didn't watch cassel much last year. horrific. oh, he flashed a few times last year; but not enough to make me any more than slightly optimistic (thanks to weis). and our defense is a ways away (unless ty-jack comes through, we find a nose tackle somewhere, dj steps up, and berry is all world. best case scenario is maybe 10th ranked defense). we'll be lucky if cassel can step up to slightly above average and the defense can step up.

It's not his arm strength that's the problem, it's his lack of accuracy with it...

Cassel has a lot of things he has to overcome just to become a solid QB, consistency with accuracy, pocket presence, that's another major issue of his.

I can't recall where I read it, but an article from a while back (from an undisclosed gm) stated that pocket presence can be 'learned'--that it's a feel that you get the more experience you have.

sitting as long as he did (college plus through two years ago) is a long time to sit--if weis can work with him on accuracy and he obtains some pocket presence via just getting more reps in, we may have better than average on our hands. but I'm not holding my breath.

I didn't watch him much, but I'd probably give him a pass regardless. We all know that team didn't have much talent, and what talent it had was mostly young and tryign to figure out what it was doing in a new scheme with new teammates under a new coach.

I've seen Brady break down and play pretty mediocre late in games when he was pressing because it was obvious it was all on him. The Ravens playoff game was a pretty good example of that. When the QB knows he MUST succeed because no one else can/will then he can end up looking mediocre.

Give him this season then see.

mmmm....I dunno about pocket presence being learned. Brady has a 6th sense that not many QBs I've ever seen had. Marino-esque. Certainly Bledsoe never had it despite being a starter his entire life. Tony Eason had pocket presence too -- he could accurately divine when he was within two seconds of being sacked so he could tuck the ball and fall down. It's a gift I tell ya...

I'll see if I can find the article--it threw me for a few moments. you're correct, some guys seem to have it, some don't.