the parameters were that we weren't gonna take a QB and Berry was off the board, you had Spiller rated as a A+ pick.

On a scale of 1-10, you rated it a 10 iirc.

Yet, somehow, you are pissed we took a very similar player at 36 though...that's my only point there. Same as it was the last time I brought it up.

You justified taking Spiller because he is not only a running back, he can also play wide out and return kicks.

truth

Do you read this place? I'm guessing not.

Seriously, I don't have time for your games.

Who else would have met the value of the 5th overall pick?

It basically comes down to Spiller and Okung in that situation.

Can't imagine why I'd choose Spiller.

I think several teams did.

My piece is here on Arrowhead Addict.

He is talking about Cassel and Jackson....I think you are misunderstand him as talking about Arenas and DMC...
Guys that would have been a better value over Spiller (when we already had Charles and Jones at RB)

Earl Thomas - give Billay some credit here, he called this kid the way he saw him, he looks to be a damn good player early on. Great with the ball in the air.
Brandon Graham -would be giving us that pass rush threat opposite Hali that we need
Dez Bryant -WR opposite Bowe that can make a play and has #1 potential

All three would be impact players on this team while Spiller would be playing the exact role DMC is currently playing...

Oh yeah, and Tony Moeaki is a ****ing STUD of a late third round draft pick!

just saying...

Spiller was someone I would have liked at #5 overall.

I don't know why that's controversial with True Fans.

I could have taken Spiller at #5 and then Nate Allen with our 2a, and True Fans would be up in arms.

But switch those players by taking Berry first and then McCluster second, and it's genious?

I like Spiller, but Spiller at 5 would have made zero sense.

Dude, you LOVED the 2009 draft and hated the 2010 draft, your opinion here on who is and isn't a true fan is unneeded.

Go play with your Tyson Jackson doll.

You've got me, dude.

I really liked it, yes. I didn't like the 2010 draft, yes. I don't know why that disqualifies me from anything?

I'm a foundational guy. I like drafting for foundation. Blue chips spent on blue chip positions.

The 2009 draft was all about that. The 2010 draft was not.

But McCluster makes tons of sense.

The 2009 draft was a gigantic FAIL, and 3-4 DE isn't foundation.

haha

RB is not a blue chip position. ESPECIALLY when you already have Charles and Jones.

In case you missed it, we have the #1 running attack in the NFL and we have a top 10 rush defense WITHOUT TYSON JACKSON and CJ SPILLER.

at 36?

**** YES

Are you kidding around or being serious?

I completely disagree about 3-4 DE not being foundation.

The 3-4 DE has to be one of the most versatile players on the defense, with the exception perhaps only of the OLB, who has to be a passrusher but also display adequate coverage skills.

The 3-4 DE is someone who must be stout enough at the point of attack to be able to hold up blockers like a DT, but be able to get decent, consistent penetration on passing downs. Get a DE that's too one-sided, and you end up either a player you can run straight at because he's too much of a passrusher (Gilberry) or a player you can rotate your pocket towards because he puts no pressure on your QB (Shaun Smith).

Smith and Gilberry are fine players in certain situations. But Dorsey is the only player on this team that can serve as a true 3-4 DE. So we have to play mix-and-match the rest of the time because TJ isn't getting there fast enough.

Take our defense, but replace the other DE position with Campbell or Dockett from Arizona and we're a true Top 10 defense.

CJ Spiller isn't a pure running back, though. He's Reggie Bush.

He can run routes extremely well, and has amazing hands.

And, might I add, he's not 170 pounds.

What an interesting thread.

Serious. McCluster is a gadget player. His size makes it such that spent what was virtually a 1st round pick on a player that can only be a contributor, but not the fulcrum, of our success.

Yes, at 36, he made more sense than Spiller at 5.

Berry is a potential generational player. We didn't just take "a safety" at 5. And he coincidentally happened to fit a need position in the starting lineup. Which means for once we actually had the stars align and took the best player available at a position of need, and a guy that 99% of the football world expects to be an all pro for years.

It's important, but it damn sure isn't top 5 draft pick important. That draft was a giant piece of shit.

Dude, TJ hasnt even played a whole game worth of combined time yet this year. Our DEs are FAR from a weakness this year...in fact we are set at the position...enough so that we sent Alex Magee for picks because we didnt have a spot for him once Jackson returned...


...what games are you watching?

I'm not arguing with the Berry pick.

I still would have taken him over Spiller. I'm just arguing that Spiller was worth the #5 overall.

This isn't thread releated but IMO Brock and Hamas should trade avatars. It would totally change the way one reads their posts.


PhilFree:arrow:

Dude, watch NFLN today...you will see how DMC already effects entire defenses 6 games into this season.

The same way Spiller would be for us.

slot
movement into and out of the backfield
matchups
space
big plays


He has already shown that he has game breaking ability as a returner as well, same as Spiller.

NOT

FOR

US

I don't get this stupid logic. I really don't.

There's not a poster on this board that would disagree that in the 4-3 we've had for years, a DE would be worth a Top 5, and a DT would be worth a Top 5.

But now we move to a scheme where we actually REDUCE the number of hands-in-the-dirt lineman we have lining up, and all of a sudden none of the positions are worth a Top 5 anymore.

It defies logic.

My view is that he was worth the 5 overall for another team, but he was not worth the 5 overall for us, not with Berry on the board.

(I don't think players just have an arbitrary universal ranking...)

Magee was just a terrible fit for this scheme. He makes more sense in a 4-3 than he does in a 3-4.

I have to chalk my enthusiasm for him up to the fact that I didn't properly understand the 3-4 yet. I think Magee has a dynamite first step and could be a good 3-tech penetrator, but the skills he did have didn't really match up to our defense that much.

I had McCluster with something like a mid-third grade. Spiller was elite talent.

1. His collegiate production was special.
2. He's bigger and can be more physical than McCluster. McCluster is a tough kid but it's hard to imagine he won't miss games every single year because he got unlucky and someone hit him hard.
3. Putting Spiller and Charles on the same field at the same time and you don't even need a third receiver to keep the defense honest.
4. His reception abilities are almost unequalled in the NFL amongst running backs.
5. Spiller's size and versatility allows him to have usefulness in the red zone. McCluster is only really useful between the 20's.

You're kind of dumb if you can't look at the draft and see that 3-4 DEs aren't top 5 picks.

Pass rushers are worth top 5 picks all day long.

A pass rusher, Tyson Jackson is not.

LDEs in a 4-3 aren't worth top 5 picks either, unless they have 15-20 sack potential while also stopping the run.

Have a good quarterback
protect the quarterback
get to opposing quarterbacks
stop the run
everything else

in that order and you will win lots and lots of games

And yet I've provided reasons as to why I think that's demonstrably untrue, but you just keep repeating that conclusion as if there was anything to back it up.

Yeah I can't see a 3-4 DE do anything to help with any of those items.

Before Tyson Jackson, who was the last top 5 3-4 DE? Nothing to back it up, LOL.

You still don't understand this defense.

This is not ending well for you, no matter how you think its going.

Do you think Arizona's Dockett would warrant a Top 5 pick if we knew then what we know now?

No. Stop dodging the question.

I'm not particularly concerned with how it's going. I'm just looking to kill time.

But thanks for the substantial response. Gives me tonnnnnnnns to go on.

k

I take it you just completely missed Super Bowl XLIII.

LOL, it was Arizona's awesome D that got them there!!!111one

Are you going to point out all those 3-4 DEs that were taken top 5?

Non sequitor.

It is clear from that game alone that Dockett's talents could have warranted a Top 5 pick.

The non-sequitur is you bringing up non top 5 draft picks to illustrate that Tyson Jackson was worth a top 5 pick. Stupid.

Dockett wouldn't be a top 5 pick unless it was a very shitty draft year.

That's because it's incredibly difficult to scout for. There are almost no defenses in college football that offer that position in a way that NFL teams use.

You'd either be selecting a DE with elite size or a DT with elite agility, and hope you can coach the guy up.

It's too much of a risk that teams prefer to take later in the draft. But that doesn't mean players can't be worth a Top 5 selection for that position. It's just a gamble if you do.

coming from the guy with no job and lives with mommy...

you're right

internet is (your) life

Alright, that's you on the record.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think virtually every GM in the league would disagree with you, but there you have it.

No, that isn't why. It's because teams don't value that position that highly. 3-4 DE isn't a premium position.

Well, let's just say you've kind of shown your opinion on the draft to be pretty worthless.

Shrug.

I win some, I lose some. I could sit here and list off a hundred players I liked against most odds and went on to do well. I could sit here and list off a hundred that I liked against most odds and went on to suck.

I'm not running from my record. I don't really care.

That's an ad hominem anyways when it comes to the value of a great 3-4 DE.

I shouldn't laugh at these posts, buy I can't help it.

apparently OLB, ILB and NT weren't needs after all...

You have yet to argue anything, you just restate this sentence over and over, mixed in with enough logical fallacies to make Pete blush.

I restate over and over again that history demonstrates that what I'm saying is true. Your posts consist of would have could have should have.

You know what kind of 3-4 end is worth top 5 picks?

Suh
Bruce Smith
Reggie White

Guys that get sacks and have the skill set to also play the 5-technique.

3 down players that dominate the run and pass game.

Boiled down, NOT Tyson Jackson.

Disclaimer: I wasn't as pissed about the pick of Tyson Jackson as most. Due to the weakness of the class overall and the risk involved in all of the top guys.

NT and OLB are still needs...but none of the guys available at 36 would have been a better pick than DMC IMO. Or made as big of an impact.

Studebaker is gonna be a damn good player...just watch.

You get it.

Really? Because I thought my posts consist of a comprehensive argument in favor of the 3-4 DE's value from a nuanced point of view, featuring a prime example of my point of view:

Meanwhile, your argument has been... well.

The same sentence over and over again with zero backup:

The one piece of backup (over and over again) you've provided...

...I've responded to:

To which your responses were fallacious:

And, again, repetitive.

Right or wrong, your claims that my opinion is worthless don't carry a lot of weight when one considers your performance in this thread.

LOL

You do understand he just made the argument that a 3-4 DE can warrant a Top 5 pick, after you've spent half the thread arguing that this can't be true...

Since 2000...

These are the best picks and "foundational" players in the top 5 of the NFL Draft.


Chris Samuels
LT
Justin Smith
Julius Peppers
Andre Johnson
Eli
Fitzy
Rivers
Mario Williams
Joe Thomas
Calvin Johnson
Matt Ryan


So you guys have too lofty of expectations...

A small % of top 5 picks turn into franchise players...

so expecting a Bruce Smith or Reggie White is flat out RIDICULOUS.

Basically, you should be preying for Richard Seymour.

If 1 of 3 of our top 5 picks turn into a franchise caliber player that would be about the right percentage for top 5 picks that turn out...

Jury is still out on Tyson...hopefully he'll end up having a Seymour type impact when it's all said and done.

Justin Smith probably doesn't even deserve to be in that group...I was pretty generous on him and Joe Thomas.

So basically 1 out the 5 top 5 picks turns out to be a pro bowl caliber player...

so expectations on this board, as usual, are ridiculous for drafted players...even ones drafted very highly.

That's neither comprehensive nor nuanced. It's you throwing darts at a board to try to a) justify a bad draft pick and b) explain why teams usually don't spend top 5 picks on that position. You're drowning, son.

You haven't rebutted anything I've argued on the importance of a 3-4 DE.

I'd keep making my case, but I kind of need something to respond to.

LOL

You just compared Tyson Jackson to Reggie White.

When?

The importance of a 3-4 DE, obviously, based on history, is not reflected in the draft, you know, by real NFL GMs. I realize that Chiefs bloggers like you and Nick have your own perspective, but don't get butthurt when somebody points out that your out of phase with reality.

In the post I quoted.

and another reason why getting a good QB isn't as easy as it seems...

Since 2000...the best top 5 picks at QB were Eli Manning, Philip Rivers (one draft) and Matt Ryan (can he win on the road??)

I'd have to think the success rate on top picked QB's this decade was very, very low.

Take a guy #1 and 20% of the time he works out QB wise...or so it seemed last decade. Maybe even lower...

And Tyson Jackson is bad and all...but the Rams...yikes thank the lord they scored with Bradford (or so it seems)...

They were similar to us and they drafted Chris Long and Jason Smith.

and it's so hard to land a good QB in the draft...most of the time (as pointed out) it's failure...

yet the one guy who looks to be a total stud (Sam Bradford) was hated by our drafturbating geniouses!!!!!!!!!

so...

yeah

who you taking???

Chris Long/Jason Smith or Glenn Dorsey/Tyson Jackson?

lol

I'd say Bradford (value wise) >>>>>> Berry, though.

You still haven't rebutted anything I've said.

You're pointing to past history being an indicator that 3-4 DE isn't worthy of a Top 5, while agreeing with somebody in this thread that said that they are.

I just have no idea what you're arguing.

Give me something, man.

And yet, according to Direckshun, 3-4 DE is so much tougher to scout than QB.

For the second time... When?

I'm pretty sure Direckshun is the same guy who gave our 2009 draft an A+...

he's a little out there

Because Reggie and Bruce are the norm when discussing 3-4 DEs. That's why they were drafted 20+ years ago.

The logic goes, according to you, that the reason so few 3-4 DEs are drafted top 5 is because they're tough to scout. ROFL

You've lost me.

Why? Shouldn't more data allow you to have a more-informed opinion?

3-4 ends get drafted in the top 5 about as much as safeties.

...they have to be a generational talent, not something that comes around every year or two.

Safeties that are worth top five picks are ones that dominate the deep ball and are a dependable run defender...they also have to have the ability to play man coverage against almost anybody.

Basically, to be a top 5 pick playing a position that is not the most important you have to transcend your given position. You have to be a dominant prospect in almost all the areas you will be responsible for in the NFL and are expected to make an impact fairly soon...not much development should be expected of a player at an unimportant position because they are overdrafted because of rare, freakish ability.

Most DTs take 2-3 years to develop in the NFL...but Suh has stepped right in and made a difference from day one. He has rare physical gifts that allow players like him to step in and play well from the get go. He would have done similarly in a 3-4 because the responsibilities are similar.

Berry has done this as well (though he has made some big mistakes in the early part of the season, something he will surely work on and not repeat...I bet he plays against Gates much better in the second meeting and better each time thereafter) He has been a stout run defender and has basically taken away the long ball so far this year...think about how many times we were targeted in the deep ball last year and in years before that and then try to think about how many times we have had that problem this year...that is because teams are aware of him being back there. This also holds true with long runs. Think of how many big ones we gave up in the last few years and then think about how many we have surrendered this year...yeah, not too many. HUGE difference.

This is why I also think Moeaki would have been a top 15 pick at TE if he had stayed healthy in Iowa...he is very good in every area of a generally unimportant position. Those kind of guys are VERY VERY RARE.

Hope that helps, direckshun

You may be right, though it also could be too early to tell for sure.

I guess we'll find out for sure when we face a team like Tennessee, or say Pittsburgh or NYJ in the playoffs.

The only team we've faced with a consistent running game hit us for 6 yards a pop.