The Chiefs have another ILB that I want to see how he does this year. Last year he was slowed by knee problems but he could be a run stopping difference maker in the middle.

Pro Day results -
Jovon Belcher height 6013, weight 243, 40 yd time 4.88, 20 yd 2.89, 10 yd 1.64, bench press 19 times, vertical 9.00, 20 yd shuttle 4.25, 3 cone drill 7.07 03/26/2009

Micah Johnson height 6014, weight 258, 40 yd time 4.84 20 yd 2.80, 10 yd 1.68, bench press 31, vertical 8.11, 20 yd shuttle 4.26, 3 cone drill 7.34 03/10/2010

As others have pointed out, having a big NT in the middle could certainly help our ILB play. I’d like to see the Chiefs sign a free agent and draft one on the second day of the draft.

nevermind

OMG

If you think that Bruschi was 250 pounds I got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Oh wow so Jovan actually WEIGHED IN AT 243 FOR HIS PRO DAY!

Wow good job Hamas, Talking Dipshit, and Dane. As ****ing usual, you bitches argue left and right with people then get made to look ****ing stupid.

I said he was 242 last year going into camp. That's what he told me. He said when the season was over he was around 230ish. He said this year he was 252, and he LOOKED 252 if you know what the **** you are looking at (and Hamas obviously doesn't because he's an idiot). So he probably played most of the season around 240ish.

That's plenty big for an inside backer in this defense.

I'm still LMFAO at Dane thinking Bruschi was 250.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...020129mediaday

Exactly. WE're going to draft a guy to replace a 2nd year player?

Wow, this ownage is becoming legendary

While I like the kid, he is better suited for a 4-3 scheme. There are better prospects out there who would fit our scheme...

No way would I give up on Belcher yet. He's come way too far in a short two seasons for me to believe he can't take one more step in his 3rd season (usually a young player's biggest step forward comes in the third year).

More critically, Belcher has the perfect attitude for an ILB. He's aggressive, he's fearless and he genuinely seems to enjoy doing to grunt work underneath.

If he had a legitimate NT that could keep him from having to fight off Guards on every single running play, he'd hold up even better. It wasn't that he never fought off blockers, it was that he was asked to do so virtually every play and eventually it wore him out. If you get a real NT in there to cut the number of times he has to go head up against a guard in half, I'd suggest that he'd be far more effective at shedding blockers when he's asked to do so.

He's athletic, he's quite strong for his size, he plays with passion and he plays with very good leverage (something that some guys never learn). He's a ballplayer. And yeah, would we be better if we had someone better than him to force him to special teams? Sure, but the Ravens would be better if they could clone Ray Nitschke and push Ray Lewis to lead gunner as well. That's a meaningless statement.

We have finite resources in terms of draft picks, cap space and outright cash that Clark may be willing to spend on signing bonuses. Putting those resources into a position that already has a young player that could very well be capable of playing it at a high level is shortsighted and impatient. Give him this season - if he hasn't improved, make a move. It's not like we don't have pressing needs at OLB, NT, WR, RT, C, G, and RB2. We can dedicate our offseason to filling those holes and still likely exhaust our available resources before they're all covered.

Give Belcher another season, ideally behind a real NT, and I think this conversation will be seen as very very silly the following year.

Obviously, there are greater positions of need. But as we're all aware, not every position can be addressed each year and the Chiefs had a weak interior on both sides of the ball this past season.

As I stated earlier, if the Chiefs can upgrade at ILB (or any position), they should absolutely do it. I'm not a hater of Belcher by any means, but I do think the Chiefs would benefit from having a quicker and more instinctive player at that position.

DJ and Belcher aren't even closely related in terms of talent, quickness or instinct.

Nor are they close in terms of drive or attitude.

It's production that counts and with Belcher's makeup, if he can get to 80% of what DJ is physically, he could be just as good a player. If DJ would play with 80% the ferocity or intensity that Belcher plays with, he'd be a perennial All-Pro.

DJ is a much more explosive, dynamic, playmaker of a linebacker. However, he doesn't bring that hard-nosed tenacity you'd like to see from an ILB and he doesn't like to go into tight spaces and get nasty. In that sense, Belcher compliments him perfectly.

They're much different players who serve significantly different roles. All things considered, there's no reason Belcher can't be just as good at his job as Johnson is at his.

And there's the rub.

Jesus...

Belcher has a very solid season as a starter, really filled the running lanes well, and knocked the piss out of people when he got there. That's exactly what you want out of your MLB in a 3-4.

But yet, you want to "upgrade" that as you perceive it as a weak link...

Have you seen the wide receiver position or the offensive line? How about finding a strong safety that can actually cover someone, something, anything in the passing game?

People are still blathering on about Albert and that he'll eventually "get it" or that Berry's inability to have any semblance of a pass defense gets chalked up to "he's a rookie and learning...give him time" but a guy like Belcher has a solid season and people around here want him replaced because the Chiefs have him listed at 228 lbs. and they think that's too light and that's the only thing that they can see.

Oh...that's right...it's the Casey Wiegmann Double Ignorant Observational Case Study. Well, Wiegmann is only 285 lbs. and he's in his 30's. That mean he's got to suck, right? Replace him! What? Belcher is listed at 228?! He's got to suck, right? Replace him! I don't care what they do on the field...he doesn't fit the scheme as I see it on paper. Replace him!

Belcher is solid.

Good God, you are a ****ing moron.

You had me here.

But then you lost me here.

Give him 1 more season.

With an NFL strength and conditioning program, I think he can get there. He'll obviously never have the lateral quickness or the explosiveness (though I wouldn't underestimate him too much, he's no slug out there). But I think he's capable of getting just a bit quicker, just a bit stronger and just a bit more agile. DJ's maxed out physically, he's been in the league awhile now. Belcher is just now seeing the advantages of being a full-time football player and having access to some of the best trainers in the world.

You can see it in his body already, he's developed a lot since college. At 23, he still has another couple of years where he can increase his core strength before he tops out.

Again - considering their respective roles, I absolutely believe that Belcher can be as good a Ted backer as Johnson is a Mac backer.

getting a NT is way more important than finding a replacement for Belcher...i thought the guy played well and hit like a mother %$#!@ regardless of his weight...i expect him to be even better next year...

Jovan is a second year guy that just started his first season.

He had 84 tackles, a sack, a forced fumble, and 3 tackles for a loss.

Yet people want to talk about drafting a guy to upgrade? Pretty stupid.

Jovan is a hard worker, plays with a lot of desire and actually is more athletic than people are letting on here. The "how much he weighs" thing, well I owned asses in that discussion so that's done. As far as the rest? He's going to get another year to start, and he should only get better. He did a great job of doing the dirty work inside for a guy in his first year starting. Our run defense improved by leaps and bounds after he and DJ were inserted into the starting lineup this season. He's a part of that.

times like this I have to assume you were hanging out with blowmo during the games....

can't you just see fake football guy falling head over ass down a long flight of stairs, then popping up and yelling to hysterically laughing crowd that he just "Owned That Stair Case's Ass!"

Look, I'm not stating that the guy in any sucks or is undeserving of a role on the team. But let's look at facts: The Chiefs were gashed in the run game by the Raiders and even the Broncos. They lost several games by 20 points or more and the interior of the defense could certainly use an upgrade. And quite honestly, I do not see a single NT that is going to magically transform the middle of the defense. Help? Sure. But as far as anyone knows, there are no Raji's or Ngata's available this year in the draft or free agency.

Hopefully, Belcher can continue to improve and there's no doubt that he made a leap from year one to year two. But the position needs an upgrade and whether it's him that makes the leap or a free agent, I don't really care.

It seemed a lot of time he was more interested in taking on the blocker than filling the gapping hole, and then couldn't get off the block and the RB would zoom right on by for a big chunk.

Do you think Ray Lewis as our TLB solves those problems? After watching what happened to the guy when Shields and Waters got to roam free, I don't.

Failings in the running game in a 3-4 defense rest heavily with your down lineman, VERY heavily.

Unless you see a MLB out there that would be good enough to overcome the failings of our DTs, why make a move just for the sake of making a move? Even if it's a marginal upgrade, is that worth the cost? Or is it worth losing out on the opporunity to see what Belcher could do?

If we had a good interior line last season and we didn't see Belcher playing with the leverage and attitude to make himself a very good run-stopper, perhaps I'd be on board. But we saw plenty of reasons that the rush defense could've been poor that have nothing to do with Belcher and we saw plenty of things from Belcher to suggest he could be a very good run stopper.

This is what I saw as well, which seems to be in direct contradiction to what people are arguing.

Perhaps that the way the defense was designed. Ordinarily your NT should've occupied that blocker (or maybe your 5-tech). If he doesn't, it's up to the next man in the scheme to occupy the blocker and allow a free player to make the tackle.

Let's not act like it's easy for a linebacker to just throw off a guard here. Like I said, even Lewis gets owned fairly often when he's asked to do that. If the blocker is coming through, it's probably a pretty smart idea for Belcher to take out the blocker and let the guys behind him clean up the mess. At that point, he's mitigating the damages.

The alternative is that he tries to go around him or ignore him altogether, in the process he gets routed out of the play and the blocker is still there to take out the 2nd level and bust the back for an even bigger run.

Again, in our defense, it all comes down to the fact that we don't have a NT. This has been a huge failure by Pioli.

Name an interior linebacker that can consistently throw off a guard.

Remember - the guard gets paid to play football as well. In fact, he gets paid exclusively to move large objects out of the way. His sole purpose on that field is to run into someone and dislodge them from where they want to be. This person will generally weigh in excess of 300 lbs.

There's just not an ILB in the game that will consistently be able to go head up with a guard and 'get off' his block. In a 4-3, the linebacker is much less likely to be facing a guard and is likely dealing with a FB or TE, which is managable for a LBer. But in a 3-4, it's almost always going to be an interior lineman or even a tackle trying to set the edge. That ILB is going to have one hell of a time moving a person that has 50 lbs on him and knows what the play is designed to do.

You're making unreasonable demands of the kid, IMO.

But that's the primary role of a TED backer.

Lawrence Timmons and Bart Scott, just to name two.

Only if you also believe that the primary role of the LT is to stonewall a pass-rushing end and pancake him.

Oh c'mon, I watched Scott get swallowed up several times against the Steelers, Mendenhall had his way with them in that game. And for a guy that's so adept at hurling blockers out of the way, he still only registered 81 tackles.

And Timmons plays in a completely different style of defense than Belcher. In fact, he plays a position far more in line with what DJ is asked to do. He is rarely ever asked to take on guards, so I have a hard time believing you can affirmatively state that he's significantly better at it than Belcher.

Oh, and he kinda has one of the best NTs in football parked in front of him.

To me this just screams of the grass being greener. Bart Scott is not a guard-mauling destroyer of worlds. He gets washed out by interior lineman the same as Lewis did and the same as Belcher did. Sometimes he'll beat them through speed or balance, but then again, sometimes Belcher does the same. The problem is that Belcher rarely gets any help from his interior line so it appears more common that he can't get off his man than it does for a guy like Scott or Timmons.

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.

This weight thing is silly.

Does anyone really think the guy holds up butting heads with guards for 16 games if he was 228?

Clearly he can handle the physical side of the position so I don't think his weight is an issue.

What is an issue is that he doesn't have great athleticism. See the play where the whiffed on Kerry Collins.

I think he is a good stopgap as many have said, but we could probably upgrade the position down the line with a mid-round pick.

Some people just get it quicker than others.

:D

Did I not expressly note that I would have no problem with trading Belcher if he doesn't improve next season (especially if he has a true NT in front of him)?

Why yes, yes I did. Don't go trying to build straw-men or trying to get me to defend arguments I never made. I've stated only that you're applying an unrealistic standard to the Ted position and that Belcher has the attitude and talent to reach a realistic one.

But you're willing to give up on the guy already when there are positions on this team that are clearly in a FAR more dire need of improvement than his, and those positions aren't occupied by young players that still have some upside left to offer.

The main point I've tried to stress throughout this thread is that the Chiefs need to improve the interior of their defense and it would be foolish to pass on anyone that could do so because Belcher's is on the roster. I also believe it would be easier to upgrade the TED position than find a Raji/Ngata type that can immediately step in and upgrade the NT. I think they'll find an upgrade (I mean, that have to, right?) but that doesn't mean it'll solve all of their interior issues.

First off, no where have I stated that I'm "ready to give up". Belcher made a nice leap from season one to season two but he has limited physical talent (mainly speed) and his quickness, strength and instincts need to improve before he can be considered a long term solution. A few others have mentioned that they saw him consistently pushed out of the play by opposing guards, so it's not just me.

Belcher is still a very young assending athletic player that fits the role of thumper in Crennel's defense and who is starting to receive attention around the league. Even if the position could be upgraded it does not seem to be a top 5 in priority. I would much rather see a focus in order of WR, NT, C, T, QB (backup).

Any upgrade at ILB will be marginalized if we have no NT. To quantify it, lets say that Belcher is an 80 ILB and Hawk is a 90, gaining you 10 points. Well the fact that we still don't have a damn NT is going to drag Hawk down to production levels far closer to those achieved by an 80 LB than he would've.

In other words - you're simply patching a hole in the dike and you're doing so fairly ineffectively. In the process, you're eliminating the possibility that Belcher could continue to develop and be one of those guys. If you don't have a true NT in place, the difference in production from Belcher to Hawk is going to be marginal.

And Bart Scott is a burner? You sarcastically noted that I wrote Scott off as an elite ILB but I've done nothing of the sort. I've simply noted that he's not Hercules out there throwing guards around and blowing up every running play. He's also not terribly fast. However, he's still been a good ILB, in fact he's one of the best. This simply my previous position - no ILB, no matter how good they are, simply tosses guards out of the way with abandon. All the while, Scott has done this well with phsycal attributes that aren't terribly dissimilar to Belchers. They're both guys that are going to play around 240 (Belcher will absolutely end up there when he's Scott's age and likely far sooner). They're both guys that run a 40 in the 4.8 range.

What makes Scott so good is the fact that he's fearless, he's mean and he's smart. Belcher has the first 2 covered and the last may well come with time. Recall, Scott wasn't anything until 2005 when he was in his 5th season and was 26 years old. Oh, and he came into the league as an undrafted free agent out of a small college.

If anything, Bart Scott perfectly exemplifies why we shouldn't be so eager to 'upgrade' from Belcher until we truly know what we have in him. There's absolutely nothing, not a single thing, in his performance to date or his physical skill set that would preclude him from becoming exactly the player you have cited as someone that should replace him.

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.

If there's an opportunity to upgrade any position on the Chiefs roster, they should absolutely perform their due diligence and make that move. Behind Belcher and DJ there's no one that can step in and play at a high level.

As I said earlier, I find it unlikely the Chiefs will find a player the caliber of Ngata or Raji this offseason, and something has to be done to greatly improve the interior of the front seven.

boy was that bad....:shake:

This team doesn't need Ngata to greatly improve it's NT situation. Soliai would be a massive upgrade. Franklin would be a great addition. Hell, Powe in the draft would be. Further, there are always under the radar guys out there that can bust out if given a chance. I'm not looking for a perennial pro-bowler (again with the straw-men), I'm simply looking for a NT that is actually built to play NT.

That alone will make a massive difference in the defense and will let us see what we truly have in Belcher. I think we'll be very happy with it.

Bart Scott is one of the best inside linebackers in the league now.

Wow.

Bart has a big mouth and a bad temper, which gets him a lot of noise. But his actual play is above average. That's it.

Here's the thing. We saw what Belcher can do with negative play from the NT. So right now, any new NT has to do better than "garbage." If we get average NT play, that in itself will make Belcher a lot better.

And I'm not convinced at all that a good NT is that hard to find. Most NTs are taken in the later rounds, and they are among the lowest paid players on defense (which is odd, given how crucial they are to the defense). We're seeing NTs like Pickett, Aubrayo Franklin, and Kyle Williams play solid at the position out of obscurity.

It just so happens that Pioli has made zero effort to bring one in. And some of that is due to bad luck. I'm still pretty convinced that if last year wasn't uncapped, the Chiefs would have been strong players in the Wilfork sweepstakes.

So if the interior of the D needs upgraded, when do we start talking about upgrading DJ?

i wanted him so bad when he was a FA

So you think that Derrick Johnson needs to be replaced?

Obscurity?

You're talking about a former first round draft as being "obscure"? And Franklin was a draft choice of the Ravens, who seem to know a thing or two about drafting and developing defensive players.

Furthermore, all of guys you've mentioned took years to get where they are today. It's highly unlikely that the Chiefs can pluck a 5th rounder out of the 2011 draft and see an immediate upgrade at the position.

It would be awesome, but unlikely.

The Chiefs need to improve their interior defense. If they can find an obvious upgrade from Derrick Johnson, they should do it.

Ah, behold the power of meaningless truisms.

Conversely, Dick Butkus', Mike Singletarys' and Pat Willis' don't grow on trees either. And, as people have pointed out, unless you upgrade the NT position, you are going to need a ILB of that caliber to effectively reach the goals/performance you are envisioning for this defense without a decent nose.

Johnson and Belcher showed a lot with not a lot of consistent production in front of them. You get some guys up there that can keep the offensive line guys from getting into the second level and they will have even better years than what you saw last season, which, in my opinion, was pretty damn good by both players.

Kyle Williams, who is currently the best nose tackle in the NFL, was a fifth rounder in 2006. You got to be a little lucky, but you also got to be good. There will be some guys at that area that might have a little Kyle Williams in them. The Ian Williams guy from Notre Dame and Sione Fua from Stanford should be there in the mid-rounds because they don't fit "the prototype" in terms of size, but both were very productive in college as nose tackles.

Uh huh, nice way to bolster your claim, Counselor.

But you're right: Belcher was awesome in 2010 and the Chiefs shouldn't even consider upgrading the position.

My bad.

Yeah, he clearly has shown that he's an amazing ILB that quickly sheds offensive lineman and makes tough tackles in the run game.

I couldn't believe his effectiveness against Darren McFadden and Knowshon Moreno. He was practically the defense in those games.

Yeah considering the top 3-4 defenses are built around no-name NT's. :shake:

Do you believe Derrick Johnson fits that classification?

I know he had a great first 4-6 games of the season, then was prone to long stretches of being invisible or flat out ineffective from that point forward.

Either you believe Johnson was an elite ILB last season (who can't shed blockers, I must add) or you are applying an inconsistent standard to the respective players.

Johnson is playing the Mike position and it's his job to make tackles. As a matter of fact, he had 121 tackles this past season, so I'd say he's doing his job.

And yes, I thought he was among the league's better ILBer's. I don't know how that can be disputed but I'm sure you'll try.

The fact is that most 3-4 defenses in the league not only have a solid NT. They have 2 good ones, and both of them are not very highly paid. Like Center and Running Back, despite being very important positions, those positions aren't drafted until the 2nd or 3rd round. And you can easily find gems in the later rounds as well. The skill set for the position isn't all that difficult.

I'm not saying you don't try hard to find a NT. I'm just saying it's wrong to say that it's this impossible position to fill and that we're screwed because we can't get a Raji or a Ngata.

The reason the Chiefs don't have a Nose Tackle today is because they haven't even remotely tried to get one. If the Chiefs bring in Solilai and draft a 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounder (assuming they do good advanced scouting), they could very, very easily be secure at the NT position.

Your position is essentially that our interior defense was bad last season and since we can't upgrade at NT, we need to upgrade somewhere.

So if a better sideline to sideline backer shook free, shouldn't the Chiefs be compelled to 'exercise their due dilligence' and upgrade?

JFC, you love to argue.

The TED backer and NT NEED to upgraded. Nowhere did I state ANYTHING about Derrick Johnson or his play and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that he's going ANYWHERE after the extension he just signed.

But if you think that DJ needs to replaced, by all means, let us know why.

I don't think DJ needs to be replaced. Nor do I think Belcher needs to be replaced. I don't think the problem with our run defense was our linebackers, well apart from Vrabel's inability even make it to his gap before the RB clears it.

You've made a handful of nebulous references to our 'porous run defense' as reasons that Belcher should be upgraded on. You've also made some comparisons to Bart Scott, a person to whom Belcher compares very favorably, to further suggest we should improve on Belcher. Afterall "something" needs to be done.

But if I turn around and say "well our run defense was porous and Patrick Willis gets sideline to sideline better than DJ, so we should upgrade on DJ if possible" isn't that playing the same game?

And you've completely avoided any attempt to address the fact that he was punked over and over and over by guards, running backs and fullbacks, that he's too light, that his lateral movement sucks and he's slow (4.85 at 228 pounds isn't exactly fast).

You asked who was a ILB that shed blocks consistently and I named ONLY two: Timmons and Scott. How many ****ing Jets and Ravens games have YOU watched the past two years? One? Two? And then you avoid addressing the Timmons comparison because you say his role is "different". Bullshit.

Nice.

The NT position needs to be addressed. Period. The TED backer position needs to be addressed. Period. There's no depth behind Belcher and if an upgrade or competition for the TED position can be found, the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed.

Timmons role isn't different? He doesn't have an elite NT in front of him? And what exactly does he have to do with the Ravens?

I don't know how many of the Jets and Steelers games I've watched over the last 2 seasons, but I know they're on TV all the damn time, I know my neighbor has Sunday ticket and I watch a shitload of football. So unless you've become some guru of East Coast football out in Cali, I'm not inclined to believe you've watched infinitely more Jets or Steelers games than I have.

And Belcher was at 242 when he ran his 4.85 at the combine (i.e. almost exactly what Scott's doing). I don't know what he runs it in now, but I don't imagine he's lost any steps at 23 years old. And no, he wasn't getting consistently 'punked' by FBs and RBs. He was, however, consistently getting blasted by guards and over the course of the game that certainly took a toll on him. So yeah, he wasn't as effective as an ILB that didn't have to take on 300 lb men as often would've been.

You say I'm ignoring your point, but you continue to disregard the fact that Belcher was constantly under attack by blockers due to completely ineffectual play by his NT. This damages his reputation (the more often he has to shed tacklers, the more often he won't manage it by the virtue of sheer mathmatics), but it also damages his ability to effectively shed those same blockers by wearing his ass out.

HUGE!! HEAVY!! TOUGH!!! BUILT LIKE A BRICK SHITHOUSE!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Bart_Scott.JPG

Tiny scrawny pussy that would get owned by Darren Sproles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...an_Belcher.JPG

I can totally see that.

Well, since I DO the Sunday Ticket and I DO watch a shit ton of Jets and Steelers, I'd say you're wrong.

So, you're stating unequivocally that an upgrade or competition at the TED backer position would be a complete waste until a NT is in place? And that Belcher wouldn't benefit from playing at a higher weight or being more instinctive?

Okay. I'm convinced. Belcher is a stud and the TED backer couldn't possibly be upgraded with a different linebacker.

:rolleyes:

If Jovan Belcher is ever the leader of this defense and plays like Scott in either Baltimore or New York, I'll be thrilled.

And once again, I didn't put Scott on a pedestal, I just answered your question.

But let me know when Belcher signs a $48 million dollar deal. Maybe he and The Guardian will buy you drinks.

What options are available to us in respect to the NT position, guys? FA, draft, trade, existing player we've hidden on the PS? Any specific names or opportunities come to mind?

Surely our linebacker play would improve if we could beef up the DL.

FAX

Paul Saliai, FA NT of the Dolphins.

He'd be my priority target, along with Ryan Kalil in free agency, if there is free agency.

As I said from the very beginning: You're providing a useless truism.

Unless you have the best player in the league at every position in the field, your team is always improved by upgrading on a player. The question is not and has not ever been 'is Jovan Belcher an irreplaceable, elite ILB that clearly cannot be upgraded upon?'

The question is: Is that a wise use of limited resources in light of the many other holes this team has in combination with Belcher's youth and production.

I see that answer as an unqualified 'NO' - it's a horrid use of those resources. His instincts are not bad at all for a guy that came from a small program. In fact, it's the more 'refined' areas of his game that need work (ability to operate well in space, how to use his hands effectively, etc...). Fortunately he's 23 years old in his 2nd year of professional football, so I think there's time for him yet to improve in those areas. And would he be better if he was heavier? I don't really think he needs to be, as much as it pains me to admit it, I think the Guardian is right here - he's probably playing around 230-240 lbs. Could he put on 5-10? Sure, but again, as I've noted, give him another season on an NFL strength and conditioning schedule and there's no question in my mind he can get there.

You continue, over and over again, to ignore my clearly stated positions in favor of useless straw-men. Perhaps you should just go re-read the thread before you hit submit next time and ask yourself "has the person I'm speaking to already addressed this?" It would really save us both some time.

Co-sign.

I've got a better idea: I'll just ignore your stupid ass altogether.

Yay Belcher! Best ILB in the league.

****tard.

Come on Dane.

That isn't remotely close to what he is saying.

No, but he's completely avoiding the fact that the TED backer position could be upgraded and is blaming Belcher's issues squarely on the lack of a true nose tackle.

As I stated earlier, Belcher clearly improved from his rookie season but he still has issues of shedding blocks, speed, quickness and instinct. We all know that guys may run slower but play faster due to their football instincts but, I haven't seen that ability in Belcher yet. Maybe he'll make another huge leap from year two to year three and it won't be an issue from a starting position standpoint.

But again, if the Chiefs can logically upgrade that position, whether it be depth or competition, it would be a mistake to pass.

Every position could in theory be upgraded.

However upgrading at inside backer over Belcher is NOT pressing. His play was solid, and when you are in your second year and only first year starting and you are solid why would we be out trying to find an upgrade instead of allowing the player to ascend?

It's stupid as shit.

His argument is that Belcher shows signs of being an ascending player, and that there should be no rush to replace him, given the more pressing needs that this team has.

He does need to improve, but part of his struggles can also be directly attributed to the fact that guards can get out on him unmolested, and the fact is that in a battle between the guard and LB, the gurd is going to win that battle a 80-85% of the time.

I never stated it was pressing. What I stated was that if the Chiefs passed on an opportunity to acquire a solid backup or even competition at that position, they'd be remiss in doing so.

Nothing less. I never stated he sucked, I never stated he shouldn't be the starter, I never stated he hadn't improved - nothing. None of the above.

And I've not stated anywhere in this thread that there should be a rush to replace him. I've pointed out his weaknesses and stated that the Chiefs would be remiss if they passed on a logical possibility of adding a backup or even competition at the spot.

"Logical" implying that it would be a no-brainer.

I'd like to add that I think Crennel really likes Belcher, and what he brings to the table.
Given the fact that he gave belcher the responsibility of the mic'ed up helmet from game 1 on monday night in Arrowhead, I'm led to believe, that not only does he think he can play the position, but he also thinks he can be a leader on this defense.

i admit to having a soft spot for UDFA's.....

i don't think anyone could have predicted the type of production we got from him last season...yeah, he can improve, but there were times when he looked great...and he made some crushing ****ing hits which our defense has not been known for in the past..


unrelated to the argument about him, but based on his play last year, if you re-did the 09 draft, he'd be a 4th maybe a 3rd rounder, no?

I feel the same


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I agree with the nose tackle, center and see what they can do,free agent receiver!!!!!!!!!

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_as...filiate.81.jpg


my only beef is that he isn't very cute

No, but you said the interior of our D needed upgraded. DJ plays on the interior. So it sounds like you think he needs replaced . I just wanted to know who you want to replace DJ.