Someone needs to sneak some PEDs into the Royals clubhouse. Maybe then Balbonis Hr record will be broken.

FYP

Pujols hasnt ever takin roids. Jealousy makes people idiots.

I don't know but I am gonna get the herp so I can get jacked.....legally!

No doubt, although I'm 99% sure nothing is going to raise total T levels that high execpt Test itself, maybe super high dosing of 4AD but obviously those don't treat the Herp.

I have no idea why a herpes medication would raise Test either.

Don't you why you wouldn't clear a medication through the league first before taking it anyway?

Sure, which is why that claim is complete BS.

Yea it doesn't all add up. More creative than past excuses though! LMAO

So does naivety.

I'm waiting to see what will come next. Doubt it will be as amusing as this one, though.

Apparently this is not that hard to believe for those who are "cycling." You can test with very high levels and 12 hours later show normal levels. Which would explain why some of these guys take the risk. It makes it difficult to get caught.

Testosterone doesn't work the same way as EPO does. I believe Test Prop has the shortest ester and it's 1/2 life is still 2-3 days.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

For what its worth, Dan Patrick says that he's got a reliable source saying that Ryan Braun is probably going to win his appeal. If that happens, he would be the first MLB player ever to win a performance-enhancing drug appeal.

I hope so. I don't wanna hate another good ballplayer.

DP already backed off that and said "I want to clarify something I said about Ryan Braun yesterday, what I should have said is he could be found not guilty." And to quote Craig Calcaterra on it "He could still, however, have his positive drug test upheld in the same way J.C. Romero‘s was, with a decision that it was inadvertent (i.e. a positive sample constituting a lack of innocence). Because MLB’s drug policy is strict liability, however, he would still be suspended because intention has nothing to do with it."

Which would suck for him since he'd probably still get the whole "doping" treatment from the media even if it was nothing more than a tainted supplement.

Kind of hard to prove intention, that's why its irrelevent.

Around that, without looking it up.

Most guys don't have a clue as to what they are talking about with this.

Guys that bitch about guys using PED's are pussies. These same mother ****ers usually want to legalize pot then cry like bottlefed mother ****ers when someone uses PED's.

Shit should be legal before pot should. I never heard of someones driving being impaired from using test or tren or dbol or halo. ****ing stupid.

yeah, I knew about strict liability, which was why I was a little surprised about his apparent confidence. With DP's backtrack, its now faded back into murkiness, but for people who know the details to say there's even a reasonable chance he could win suggests something very odd.

Its not enough to say "oops, I didn't mean to", even if you could prove lack of intent, if the sample is positive, you are suspended. Normally, you'd either have to prove that the test itself was flawed and unreliable at least in your case, which is tough to do, or you'd need something really crazy like someone intentionally (and criminally?) spiked you in the hopes of causing you to fail the test, or someone in the testing facility contaminated your sample, or something strange like that.

(though with reports that his sample had chain of custody problems, and the result was "insanely high" as in twice as high as anyone else ever tested in known history, perhaps the argument is that the sample was spiked or contaminated in transit.)

This....plus he is on my fantasy team.

Meh. Have never understood why anybody would hate a baseball player for taking PEDs. Countless players have taken PEDs over the game's history, it's very much a part of the culture of the sport. Taking a drug to improve help their performance and livelihood doesn't make anybody a bad person.

But yeah...Braun is also on my fantasy team. I could really use those 50 games of production.

People generally don't like cheaters.

I would be more cool with it being used in every day society then in pro sports. They create too big of an advantage with the user compared to the non user and while I understand them 1/2 ass and the ignorance to the actual side effects I don't think anyone should be forced to use them to keep up with a career path. You would almost need to have serperate leagues. One for users and one for non users, but it's pretty obvious which one everyone would watch.

.lol, I like how when Manny got busted the media was like omg his legacy is tainted. Im like He does NOT care bout his legacy. He came dirt ass no clothes poor to play a game where he made alot of money. Do you really think players from 3rd world countries care about legacy when they have a chance to make so much money? If i grew up the way most of them Latin players did, i'd have no ****ing problem using PeD's for a chance at big time money like that. 300 million and living in a place like the Dominican Republic? shiit. live like a damned king.

Anyways, if dude is guilty or not, doesnt really matter much anymore. S ame with any sport. Its out there, just police it the best they can and thats it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, when I say it sucks for him if it was merely a tainted supplement I mean the treatment he's going to get in the media sucks. The punishment is the punishment, they collectively bargained a strict liability system for testing and regardless of intent if you test positive under that system you are and should be suspended.

So the only thing that makes people hate these baseball players is that it's against the rules? I don't think that it's at all. That doesn't, for example, explain how nobody really cares when a football player is caught cheating with PEDs.

Agreed. I see no reason for anabolic steroids to be illegal. Our society is hypocritical in so many ways, though, so it's not surprising.

Not really BCD. That's kind of a myth. If you can't hit a curveball then all the tren in the world won't help that.

If you can't read an offenses pre-snap formation, all the dbol in the world won't make you a better player. Most guys take shit in order to stay healthy, and heal faster. Do they play better? Of course. But how much of that is because they FEEL better?

It's why a lot of guys use GH instead of an adrogenic or anabolic. Because of the recovery and repair ability. Not to mention he helps these guys AFTER they are done with sports.

Who cares if they use? It's ridiculous.

Or just have one league for users. That's basically what we have already in football (see the NFL).

baseball needs steroids

The only reason for me, and its a good enough reason to enforce a ban in my opinion, is that steroid abuse is very, very unhealthy and can shorten lifespan. If you dont ban it, then you basically de facto require its use by all ballplayers, and you condemn them to all the damage they cause.

I believe steroids should be banned, not for the sanctity of the game, but for the sake of the players. Now, the other PED's, if we find that they are harmless or nearly harmless for long-term health, then I wont care so much about them, you basically have to work out and eat right to be a pro athlete, if its not harmful, we'd just throw whatever supplement on the list of requirements.

The detrimental health effects of steroids have been greatly exaggerated in the mass media. Sure, abusing steroids can be unhealthy...but abusing any drug is generally unhealthy and we don't make all of those illegal.

Here's an interview with Dr. Norman Fost on the issue of steroids in sports:

http://www.steroidlaw.com/steroid-law-45.html

And if you don't want to read all that, here's a good short speech he gave that summarizes his points:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/t8_7C9GA-2w?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


One could argue that by banning them, you are simply driving the players to acquire such drugs on the black market and use them without a doctor's supervision. If you were to legalize them, you could medically monitor their use among the players, decreasing the health risks involved.

You're crazy. Test and GH will tremendously increase your lifespan.

JFC........this is what I mean.

Dumbasses.

Why do people just repeat this shit when they don't have a ****ing clue about it?

Then other dumbasses line up and go "of course steroids shorten your life span. Everyone knows that."

It's like a rumor that starts and the village idiots never get up to speed on the truth.

Did you know that prostate cancer is actually associated with having LOW test levels? And that taking testosterone actually increases your life and quality of life? Right, you didn't know that but you felt qualified enough to speak on this.

Same for GH. What do you think GH does for older people? Do tell.

You know that anavar is used on everything from treating people with aids to kids with 3rd degree burns and that it helps their body heal many times faster than without it? That it is safe and has been used for this purpose for decades?

It's funny. You could give someone deca after a muscular or tendon surgery, and their recovery time would be cut down to 1/4 of what it normally takes. But because Ben Johnson got caught beating Carl Lewis in 1988, doctors won't touch it.

We as a country and a population are ****ing morons about this shit. These people should cease to live.

I still hear dumbasses say shit like "don't you know steroids will shrink your dick. hur hur hur." It's actually your testicles that can shrink, and that some androgenics will actually make your dong BIGGER. Oh yeah that's right. Bet you didn't know that did you? They don't teach that one in "steroids are bad 101" did they?

No, but when you do make solid contact with a ball it leaves the bat with much more velocity for someone taking PED's. Bonds doesn't hit 70+ HR's without taking whatever it was he was taking, but yes he already had the talent to hit a curve or what not. I couldn't hit a MLB fastball to save my life, but by taking PED's my softball home run total would go through the roof. Those long outs start leaving the yard.

It may not help the LB with presnap reads when they will allow him to get where he is going a step quicker then normal.

But yeah, GH probably prolonged a lot of careers especially among pitchers so the healing effects.

PED's just allow a guy with god given talent to take it to another level.

Agreed. It's too bad these type of drugs have such a negative stigma attached. It's sad it's taken so many years for horomone therapy to start becoming more prevalent and more research taking place.

And this is a problem how? :)

I imagine the biggest problem for the leagues with PEDS is a liability one not a "preserving the integrity of the game" one. Its basically impossible to run a professional sporting league without being in violation of antitrust laws so they can't do anything to piss off people in congress and there may be some liability for them in creating a PEDs arms race environment if a player gets sick/hurt from the wrong combination of drugs or chasing the edge.

PED's can't help you recognize a curveball, but they can help you hit it.

Look at it this way, in real time, the difference between a 91 mph fastball and a 99 mph fastball is 100th's of a second, but that 8 mph difference is HUGE, right? Baseball is a game where 100ths of a second make the difference between a double play and a grand slam.

So let's say you're a guy that struggles to recognize a curveball. Oh you can generally pick up the spin, but usually just in time to swing over top of it for a slow roller to short. Worse still, in response to that you start trying to cheat a little bit on them and become a guess hitter. Suddenly you're batting .250 with holes in your swing you can drive a truck through (in essence, you're Rick Ankiel).

Now imagine you take the proper PEDs, many of which are known to enhance quick twitch muscles. Suddenly your bat-speed improves just a hair. Now that yacker that you don't recognize quite as well as Pujols becomes a little less filthy because you're able to hang back on it just a bit and drive your bat into the zone quicker.

Once that happens, you can start to develop a reputation as a better hitter and pitchers will nibble a little more with you. Once they start to nibble, they get behind in the count and then they have to start giving you pitches to hit or risk putting you on base.

PED's don't make shitty hitters great. But they can make good hitters better. They can make great hitters historic.

If you want to legalize it across the board - fine, whatever. There will be no historic context for statistics anymore, but shit happens. Though be prepared for a bizarre little pandora's box, IMO. As soon as the cap comes off, players will absolutely race to inject themselves with the most potent shit possible and you'll end up with some hairy drawbacks sooner or later.

But don't try to argue that they only make a nominal difference. A) In baseball, a nominal difference is actually pretty damn significant and B) I simply disagree that the difference is only nominal.

O M G

No. Just............no.

Steroids simply break the balance of the game. To ignore the fact they don't flies in the face of the evidence. They render previous records irrelevent. The single season record that had been held for 36 years was broken six times in a four year period. Consider that record in 1961 was one better than the previous record set in 1927. And we're supposed to believe that a 35 year old ballplayer for the first time in major league history, actually got better with age. Those who are offense homers may not care, but they do make ballgames way too long with all the pitching changes needed in the now too common 10-8 ballgames.

Those who are undermining their health risks are citing information with normal use, which players were abusing by several fold. The number of steroid enhanced wrestlers dying from complications at a young age is proof that all your propoganda is meaningless.

You know what, I am going to outright put you on ignore for just this post.

I don't really know who you are, but someone who goes straight to very aggressive name-calling when they disagree with someone, even if they are right, is a worthless poster regardless of right or wrong. You obviously care very, very deeply about this issue for some strange reason, and it infuriates you when someone didn't similarly dedicate themselves to studying steroids and doesn't have your un-common wisdom. KC Connection's reply is an example of how a normal civil human being responds in a discussion or debate.

I don't even know if I'm wrong on this issue. I don't even care enough to check, because its not like its a major issue that comes up all the time.

I generally don't take people off ignore. Good-bye forever.

Really why give a shit about steroids in sports, seriousally. We all watch these guys do things that normal people can't, if taking some juice makes them do it even crazier so be it.

So much fail with this post :facepalm:

Do you really think steroids are the only drug that wrestlers take?

Not a single wrestler has ever died because of steroids.

Do you know that?????

Jesus titty ****ing christ.

Wrestlers take a buttload of recreational drugs and pain killers. That is the primary drug(s) people should be looking at. But nope, no one has a problem with pain killers.

People that consider steroids dangerous haven't read many studies....

The most likely problem would be jacking up your HPTA and being placed on TRT.

Whatever. Brilliant response.

Did you play baseball, too?

I love how completely incapable you are of ever actually engaging in intelligent discussion.

You're commenting on something you have zero experience in.

Ran many cycles?

He's a brainless juicer. He purports to be some MMA badass and former Junior Varsity superstar.

As such, it qualifies him to condescend to anyone that ever bothers to make a salient point. It gets especially apparent when he's clearly unable to put together a rational response, so he just goes to the aggressive idiocy.

You won't be missing anything, he contributes nothing. With any luck, the juice has rendered him incapable of reproducing.

And yet a guy with zero experience in this area feels free to comment and explain it everyone, while at the same time calling me an idiot.

Oh the irony.

So it's your position that steroids don't improve quick-twitch muscles?

Why do sprinters use them?

Further, bats aren't light. Is it your position that steroids don't increase core strength? Because if they do, it allows you to move said bat through the zone quicker because your body doesn't have to strain as hard to move the mass. Or if you don't want to improve batspeed but just power, you can use a heavier bat. At that point pure physics come into play - heaver bat = greater ability to drive the ball.

So what is it, sport? Do steroids not increase strength? Do they not improve the effectiveness of fast-twitch muscles?

Are they essentially just super-sized Flintstones vitamins?

You're a fantastic argument for the perils of steroids.

Different eras of baseball have rendered previous records irrelevant...it has little to do with PEDs. Players have been using PEDs in baseball since since the 60s/70s and they'll continue to in the future.

I don't know why anybody is worried about the sanctity of records from a bygone era when they played a completely different game, anyway.

You should still watch the Fost video. He brings an educated and objective position to the debate that really isn't out there in the media.

That's right - steroids don't increase strength or enhance quick-twitch reactions. Ben Johnson just turned his eyes yellow for fun. Marion Jones ruined her career for poops and grins.

Nothing to see here - athletes are only spending millions of dollars annually and risking suspension, expulsion and public scorn because it sounds like fun. As it turns out, PEDs don't actually do anything to enhance your athletic ability.

that's not how they work. do you even know the difference between an anabolic steroid and an adrogenic steroid?

Steroids do not increase or improve "fast twitch" muscles. This a long ago exposed myth. Fast twitch fibers cannot be isolated by any compound.

What perils? Do tell. How many deaths a year do we have in the United States are from steroids? Big fat ass ZERO. Second, try sticking to the discussion instead of personal attacks. It's just a cover for not being able to argue intelligently on this topic.

Second, steroids don't improve hand eye coordination. If you can't hit a curve ball because your hand eye coordination doesn't allow you to, no amount of juice in the world will improve that, no. Period. Can you hit the ball harder? Sure. And my question is WHO GIVES A ****?

How does it impact your life in a negative way?

When a baseball player takes steroids does a child in Africa die or something? What am I missing? What part of a baseball player taking something has a negative effect on your life? Just answer that. YOUR LIFE.

Wow. You are just a mental midget on this topic.

Who said steroids don't work? Of course they do. They just won't work like you think they do, and they aren't as dangerous as you think they are. You don't know this because you just regurgitate what you read from sports writers about it.

What part of "I don't really care if they're legalized" was lost on you? They don't negatively impact my life at all. Go ahead and inject yourself with as much centrifuged horse semen as you'd like; I don't give a large-rat's ass.

And you've again missed the point regarding hand-eye coordination. I never argued they did improve hand-eye coordination. Like I said, they can't help you recognize a curveball. That said, they can help you get the bat through the zone faster. If you can get the bat through the zone faster, you can gain back what you lost in slower pitch recognition. Hitting a round ball with a round bat isn't just a matter of swinging at it - you actually swing down on a baseball to drive it. You try to hit the front half of the ball with a downward strike as your wrists rotate through. It drives the ball forward while generating backspin and the backspin then generates loft.

The difference between driving that ball by hitting the front half while the ball is still right at the front of the plate, your arms are fully extended and your wrists are rotating through the hitting zone or spiking it into the dirt for a double play is literally thousandths of a second. If you don't have the freakish ability to recognize a pitch that Pujols has, you can make up for that extra split second with additional batspeed.

The perfect way to hit is through quick wrists and perfect hand/eye coordination. However, a suitable proxy is by making up for the slower pitch recognition through added strength that allows you to get the bat into and out of the hitting zone quicker. Yes, that absolutely makes a difference in a hitters ability to hit a drive a breaking ball. It can also allow them to foul off a couple more pitches to stay alive in the AB and wait for the pitcher to make a mistake.

So to admit that you can hit a ball harder with PEDs is to also admit that you can hit a ball better.

You clearly don't know enough about hitting to know why PEDs absolutely impact it. It's not just "have club, hit ball", the mechanics involved are significantly beyond that.

I have no idea if they're physically dangerous. Frankly I don't care if they are; I'm not a professional athlete and if I'm gonna spend money on something, it's not gonna be PEDs. So ultimately I'm at no risk and until I am, I'm not going to concern myself with the physical side-effects. The perils I referred to are brainless muscleheads like you that are full of testosterone and all about getting pissed off and breaking things when they don't feel like having a rational discussion. I'm sure the fact that you're entire MO is getting pissed off and diving straight for the gutter has nothing to do with being a juicer.

Like I said - if steriods work at all, they absolutely impact a hitter's ability to hit a breaking ball once you start to look at what actually goes into hitting said breaking ball.

No they don't. And there have been plenty of experts that have weighed in on why you're wrong on this. But no one can tell you shit.

I mean you don't even realize that "roid rage" is a myth. JFC just stop commenting on this.

I hate to piss on someone's grave, but Lyle Alzado really got the ball rolling with the misinformation regarding steroids.......everything from the "dangers" to the "rages".

Lyle died of AIDS. This is well known throughout the cycles he traveled in and swung from sides of the fence. Steroids have never ever ever been linked to brain tumors. But HIV/AIDS have.

People will believe anything the media tells them.

And Lyle was an asshole his whole life. He just grew bigger.

Go ahead and even begin to explain how strength doesn't increase batspeed.

Now try to tell me how increased batspeed doesn't help you hit a breaking ball.

You're wrong. You clearly don't know shit about baseball and now you're desperately trying to appeal to authority to bail you out.

It doesn't, at least not directly. Maybe indirectly by making the pitcher throw you a hanging curve as opposed to a fastball because he's frightened of your mark mcgwire triceps.

He was also taking that old cadaver HGH which wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Would taking steroids make you better at xbox 360 games?

So you're not going to answer the question?

Again -

1) Does increased strength not improve batspeed?
2) Does improved batspeed not increase your ability to hit a breaking ball?

If you answer no to either of these questions, please show your work.

C'mon big timer, surely anyone that's going to go apeshit anytime someone disagree with him is capable of constructing a cogent counter-argument, as opposed to just tossing out useless straw-men. Surely you can dissect this clearly asinine argument I've put together. I went right ahead and broke it down into component parts for you to make it extra easy.

Let's see what you've got, Al.

http://www.80stees.com/images/Hallow...stume-link.jpg

Yes or no.

Would taking steroids make you better at xbox 360 games?

How does getting a bat into the zone quicker not help you make up for slower pitch recognition? How does being able to fight off a breaking ball that you would have ordinarily swung through not get you an extra pitch to hit that the pitcher may then hang?

It's not going to help me hit a breaking ball, but that's not who we're talking about. We're talking about guys that were already the best 1% in the world at what they do - hitting a baseball. Guys that can already recognize a breaking ball to some degree and do so better than the tens of thousands of folks that would kill to play this game for a living.

You're working within razor-thin margins. All of those guys can see a breaking ball, it's just a matter of those hundredths of a second that their body takes to process and react to same. If you're a little slower on the trigger with the recognition, then the increased batspeed can make up for it.

Give me a rationale explanation as to how that's not true. Please, somehow explain to me how this does nothing to help hitters that were having to guess on breaking balls get just that extra Nth of a second needed to either fight one off or square it away.

The line between hitting a ball 400 ft and either spiking it to the SS or blasting it straight skyward is less than the blink of an eye. To argue that additional batspeed has nothing to do with the ability to hit a breaking ball given those constraints is just asinine.

It's not going to turn a HS hitter into a superstar, but it will take a mediocre Major League hitter (already a fantastic hitter in any other context) and make him a much better one.

I asked you first. Go ahead and presume my answer is as you expect it to be, and answer my question. Then we'll talk how easily distinguishable and ultimately useless your straw-man is.

C'mon Al. You can do this. I have faith in such a wise and learned juicer.

No it won't. The initial response comes from the central nervous system. And steroids won't change that. So the speed at which his CNS processes the reaction time does not change. Since you are talking bat speed, it wouldn't matter. He would just swing the bat FASTER but he still wouldn't connect with the ball. You don't get that.

It's like saying that a guy can shoot a pistol faster than the next guy, thus he must be more accurate. One has nothing to do with the other.

Batter A has better hand/eye coordination but swings a bad slower than batter B. Batter A can hit a curve ball but batter B can't. It's because the speed at which you swing doesn't matter if you can't connect the bat to the ball.

Rather than continue arguing just say you don't know what you're talking about and leave it at that.

I played baseball for a decade - yes, I get what you're trying to say; you're just not correct in saying it. The speed at which you swing is instrumental in connecting the bat with the ball. If you have a slow-ass lumbering swing, you're not going to get around on fastballs. If you can't get around on fastballs, you have to trigger early to keep from getting blown away. If you have to trigger early, you're going to swing fastball and a changeup/curveball is going to kick your ass when you're way out ahead of it. Or you have to cheat to protect from inside fastballs and suddenly sliders away kick the shit out of you.

You're trying to create a distinction between some idiot that's never played and a superstar - that's not who we're talking about. Every single person that plays major league baseball can recognize a breaking ball. All of them. And yes, being able to swing a bat faster absolutely makes it easier for them to hit a baseball.

It allows a hitter to wait back on a pitch longer before committing because he knows he can get the head through the zone quicker. As a consequence, it can let him see a breaking ball before he swings at it. That's the most obvious way a hitter can help his ability to hit a breaking ball through increased batspeed.

And like I said, when he's a tick slower on the uptake for said breaking ball, he can now get the bat into the zone to either tip it foul to survive when he would've missed it, or drive it when he would've popped it up or grounded out with it.

I'm not arguing steroids with you here - I'm arguing baseball. I'm allowing your stated position - that batspeed is increased by steroids - to control the discussion w/r/t the physical impact of steroids. But what you clearly don't understand is that hitting a baseball is MUCH more complicated than you believe it is.

Ultimately, I flat-ass couldn't recognize a breaking ball so I couldn't keep playing; anyone with a show-me curveball would own me. There was no amount of steroids in the world that were going to help me. However, if you're someone that's playing in MLB, or even in the high minors, you're a hell of a good hitter. You can recognize breaking balls and you have good enough hand eye coordination to hit an Aspirin with a broomstick. At that point, the difference between a star and a role-player is purely in the margins.

The additional batspeed generated through the use of PEDs absolutely helps in those margins and absolutely improves a hitter's ability to hit breaking pitches.

If you're trying to make a layperson's response to this, you're not going to be accurate.

This is a better argument.......

This is all I was ever saying.

Correct. And if you can already hit a curveball, then taking something that makes you leaner and faster and stronger SHOULD allow you to hit the ball further, absolutely.

your take it improving fast twitch fibers is wrong. the other stuff you write there, I agree on 100%.

remember this discussion the next time you hurl insults at me. I am not some blow hard macho asshole about this stuff. I am all for intelligent debate.

Thanks.

You missed his point the first half dozen times because you either lack basic reading comprehension skills or you chose to ignore them. Its ridiculous that he had to chew it up for you, partially digest it, and regurgitate it into your gullet in order for you to process it.

Its not like it was a complicated point.

Steroids can increase batspeed.
Increased batspeed improves hitting.

Therefore, steroids improve hitting.

Actually he didn't. He and I were saying the same thing.

Steroids won't let you hit a curve ball. He finally admitted that.

Dumbass.

If a major leaguer can hit a curve ball, and gets stronger, than yes he can swing the bat with more velocity.

But if he can't hit a curve ball, or has trouble hitting certain KINDS of pitches, steroids will not make up for that. Period.

Now go get yer shinebox.

This may or may not have been brought up already BUT.

Jose Bautista has been tested 16 times in the last 2 seasons. 0 positive tests. Braun is 1/1 with an MVP. Go figure.

I'm pretty sure they aren't testing for HGH yet though..

Yup, steroids are completely safe. And you were there for all the post mortems.

If Bautista is taking something, it's something that's probably unknown to the general population and quite undetectable. Not something well-known and relatively ineffective (for a baseball player) like HGH.

Of course, as I've said before, there is zero reason to suspect him of taking something over any other player in baseball.

So its just a coincidence that after baseball started cracking down on steroids, these records have not been approached again. Did baseball players all of a sudden get worse?

I....argh.

We're not saying the same thing. There is no such thing as a major league hitter that can't hit a curve ball. Send Adam Dunn to A ball and he'd hit 80 Hrs off those cruddy curves even if he couldn't hit one with a tennis racket at the ML level. You continue to draw this dichotomy between MLB players and stiffs; that just doesn't make sense.

There are major league hitters that cannot routinely hit a curveball well. Not far mind you, but well. That means as much as a simple linedrive.

Many of these hitters can't hit it because they can't get to the right point in the hitting zone on time. Understand - the bat is actually in the proper hitting spot on a breaking ball for a fraction of a second - not the entire time it's on plane; remember, you swing down on a baseball; it's not just about being on the same lateral plane, but being at one point in time at the exact fraction of a second you're supposed to be there.

If I'm a major leaguer with average batspeed and an average ability to make recognize a breaking pitch, I may hit .230 against an average curveball. That's because I'm having to cheat to catch fastballs and in so doing I have to commit too early and end up hanging myself out. Or because I'm not picking up the spin quite quick enough.

Now if my batspeed improves - I'm going to be able to sit back on the breaking pitch better and not fool myself. I'll also be able to make up for 2nd tier pitch recognition by being faster to and through the zone. That will help me make consistent contact with breaking balls more. It will help me fight them off and live to see a hanger. It will help me line them into center because my timing is more in synch, even with my mediocre batting eye.

I will hit them better. I won't just hit them farther.

As I said in my very first post, the one that I doubt you even got to the end of, it cannot make a bad hitter good (bad being "not major league caliber"; every person that plays Major league ball is a good hitter; it's just a matter of degrees). But it absolutely can make a good hitter better. It has nothing to do with just hitting the ball farther, but with a hitter's ability to wait on pitches as well as their ability to get the bat into the zone better.

If I struggle with sliders because I have to cheat around on fastballs and with added batspeed I no longer have to cheat around on fastballs, then yes, PEDs DO help you hit sliders better. So yes, PEDs DO help you if you struggle with certain kinds of pitches.

Batspeed is second only to hand-eye coordination in hitting. Vladdy has wretched plate-discipline, a piss-poor approach and his balance tends to be irrelevant because he swings at everything, but the man can hit because he has the most freakishly quick wrists I've ever seen, so he can let the ball get in a little more and then snap the bathead through. Notice as he's aged, he suddenly can't hit worth a damn. Not for power, not even for average. It's because the batspeed is gone. Alfonso Soriano was a similar hitter in his prime and his having similar problems now.

You're just yelling that PEDs don't help your hand/eye coordination and claiming that means it doesn't help you become a better hitter, just someone that can hit a ball longer - that's simply not true.

Increasing batspeed helps everything for a hitter. It helps his contact rates, so it increases the number of pitches he sees. If he sees more pitches, he sees more mistakes. It helps him square balls up better because he can get the bat through the zone easier. It helps him drive down on the ball just a little quicker to make up for average pitch recognition. Further, strength helps with control. If the bat 'feels' lighter through added strength, the hitter can control it easier in that they don't have to exert themselves as much to guide it through the zone. When you're not as strained, you're more in synch and more in control.

I'm not sure how much more apparent I can make this - PED's make you a better hitter.