that the best you got? I know you're trolling, but you suck at it...

**** you

You already said that. You reeruned, boy?
Fat drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son....

It is the pledge of allegiance that you put your hand over your heart, not the anthem.

There are several countries that have the exact same freedoms we do-- and in many cases they have MORE freedoms than we do

List?

I'll start with one.

Canada.

Patriotism, in my view, should be grounded by your alignment with the ideas that your country espouses. It should never merely be a product of living in said country.

Me thinks there's a significant difference between loving one's country and loving one's child.
Would you ever put your country BEFORE your child?

What have you to say about people who don't believe America represents the freedom that their patriotism is rooted in?

Canada has high taxes, shitty socialized healthcare, does not allow foreign workers and mandates that radio stations play at least 33% Canadian artist.

They tax the shit out of alcohol and tobacco.

While they have the same basic "freedoms" its way more socialist.

The other countries you listed (besides Belize because I don't know) have much higher taxes as well.

Your free to move to any of those countries anytime.

Another great thing about America, you can leave any time you want. :D

Finally someone got it right.

Civilians are supposed to put hand over heart for the anthem too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code
Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem

• When reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, all present should stand at attention facing the flag with their right hand over their heart, with the exception of those in uniform who shall salute.
• When the national anthem is played or sung:

1. Designation: The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
2. Conduct During Playing: During a rendition of the national anthem:
   1. When the flag is displayed:
      1. All present except those in uniform should stand at attention with their right hand over the heart.<sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference">[13]</sup>
      2. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder,
      3. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present and not in uniform may render the military salute.
      4. Individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
   2. When the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
   3. The musician or musicians performing should sit or stand as they ordinarily would to perform on their instrument or voice.

that's what I thought too, and
military members in uniform salute
military members in civilian attire can put hand over hear, stand at attention or parade rest.

There have been times in our country's history where putting your child first is accomplished by putting your country first.

And yes I have, I have missed precious moments with my children to wear a uniform in another country in duty to our United States.

Okay. I'll give you taxes. I'll also give you another country.

Netherlands.

I can smoke a joint on the street in Amsterdam, but I can't even do that in my own ****ing living room in the United States. What gives, huh? Home of the free, you say?

You're mother

Amsterdam is a bit of a mess from what I understand though I can't say I know from first hand experience.
C
an you imagine having to listen to 33% Canadian bands all the time?

Holy shit Nickleback, Rush, and Celine Deion all the time. Ahhhhhhhhh.

Do classical music stations in Canada have to play 33% Canadian composers? Do Canadian classical music artists count?

They must listen to a lot of Glenn Gould in Canada :eek:

yes, because smoking a joint is the epitome of freedom... :facepalm:

Anyway, weed isn't legal in Amsterdam, it's been decriminalized and there are coffee shops you can smoke it, but you're not supposed to smoke it in the street.....

Have you ever been to Amsterdam? Europe? Do you only know what you read on the interweb? LMAO

33.5%, 42%, 42%, and 52% tax rates plus another 19% sales tax on many goods

If I was a stoner, I'd rather move to one of many states where it is legal to get high..

Although the Netherlands is beautiful....I could go for summers there and winters elsewhere 8-)

Hell, cocaine is legal in Mexico - guess that means Mexico is more free than America.... ROFL

I'm talking about freedom, dude. Why the **** should I give a shit about a country that shoves words like "freedom" in my face 24/7, but then restricts so many things I want to do?

You do realize everyone just being able to do what they want would make the world an even bigger ****ed up mess?

Part of democracy is supposed to be allowing what the majority deems acceptable (even though there is some argument that that's not even the case anymore.)

Go to Somalia, I am pretty sure you can do whatever you feel like there. Great place to live.

Of your own free will though, no?

Ah, the tricky part of freedoms, see when your perceived freedom infringes on other people's freedoms, then it's not really a freedom is it? For example, you're not free to steal my TV, kill my brother, or throw a rock through my window. If you're talking about doing dope, go live in Amsterdam until the US decriminalizes it in the next few years.

What's the list of "so many things" you are restricted from doing?

come to cali, i got mad weed

So that's why you're so stupid.

I said yes, and tried to explain my reasoning

Yes, is there any other way you were implying, I mean what's your point?


You're not grounded in principle to the ideas the US espouses?

That shit was definitely snuck in there by the Bush administration.

yup, it was a conspiracy to get more people in the military. Had to do something, no way a draft was coming back.....

My point is simply that serving one's country in that way doesn't make you any more patriotic than someone who, say, has chosen to be an educator or a community organizer.

Some of them certainly, but I think to pretend America doesn't have regressive and destructive ideas and practices is to be dishonest. There are certainly a number of American ideas I do not espouse.

for the first point, I agree

for the second point, patriotism does not equal blind faith, or acceptance to all American ideas. Where does standing up and being quiet during the national anthem sync up to your point? Do you espouse the majority of american principles? Do you like living here, do you like the freedoms of political ideals, religious beliefs, coming or going as you see fit. Voting on ideas you agree with? Then stop trolling, stand for the anthem out of respect for all America has been through, good and bad, things you agree with and disagree with. Why can't we have unity in one small act?

LMAO

There are people, a large number of them, who believe America represents colonialism and imperialism as much as it represents freedom. If that is even possible, I can understand why someone might abstain.

I certainly believe in ideas like freedom. I just don't know that American history has been a good indicator of America's interest in it. And, again, certainly there are American ideas I clearly do not espouse.

Trolling often translates as "holding an opinion that differs from my own". Certainly that's not what you're trying to get across is it?

We can talk about patriotism once we're open to also discussing the uncomfortable truths of America's past. Something America has often proven it has zero interest in.

I'm tiring of this conversation, trolling = saying shit to elicit a response, a staple of posting styles on CP. I do it too sometimes, even in this thread going all mega patriot, to feed the flames. America was born on the ideas of gaining freedoms from the colonial era's past. Nothing has been perfect, but we've progressed to more and more freedoms.

The point of the conversation for this thread was about standing for the anthem and it relating to patriotism. Well the truth is this;

Ready for it?

Both the Texan players that didn't put their hand on their heart and Shockey speaking out for his beliefs are right, American and not worth fighting about. There is no law saying you have to stand for the anthem, there is no law saying you can't think it's the better idea to stand, there is no law outlawing either opinion.

If that's the true connotative definition of the word...
I've never "trolled" a day in my life in this forum.

We stand in agreement, sir.

My opinion on this is:

1. I know that I'm supposed to put my hand over my heart so I do, out of respect for the ideals of this country.

2. I don't expect everyone to know the proper protocol, so I don't draw conclusions about the respect for those ideals of people who don't put their hands over their hearts.

3. People who intentionally disrespect the country during the playing of the anthem as a feckless private protest aren't worth worrying about.

I could beat you at any type of test , on any subject, sober or not.

Come at me TROLL.

I take shits that are smarter than you.

1. me too
2. me too
3. I'm saddened a bit by intentional trolling in real life, for whatever motivation.

I still think that's pretty Unpatriotic. He trying to say anyone not gifted should be deported?

Jeremy's a Dick.

You guys send me the $50 billion it takes to cross the George Washington Bridge now and I am there.

ITT: Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.