Pure hate.

You can qualify that by saying the Chiefs have had two shots at a true franchise QB in four offseasons -- reaching for Dalton or ripping Manning from Elway's clutches -- and has had to essentially completely rebuild a shit roster that just went 2-14.

Why should Pioli get the benefit of the doubt?

He inherited Hali, Johnson, Flowers, Charles, Carr, Albert and Bowe yet with that much talent at incredibly key positions he's managed to turn in 2 awful seasons with 1 mediocre season sandwiched in the middle.

Do SOMETHING and he'll get the benefit of the doubt from me.

All I see is someone that is still coasting off his NE pedigree. But the problem is that he's gone from NE and yet NE is doing the same thing, year in, year out, that they did when he was there. Kinda suggests that maybe he wasn't the reason for those successes now doesn't it?

When he can reverse the ratios from having 1 2011 draft for 3 2009, 10 and 12 drafts to have 3 2011 drafts to every 1 of those abortions, I'll consider giving him the benefit of the doubt.

But hey - at least he's taking his undersized injury cases and kick returners in the 4th and 5th rounds now instead of the 2nd. So he's learning.

Again, all due respect, but get off the cross.

I won't speak for asshat Laz, but I haven't slung "hate" around in this thread at all.

You want to swim against the stream on this team on CP?

Be ready to handle it.

And there you go again - assuming the worst, though the evidence points to the contrary.

If Charles and Berry return and play at 100% of their previous ability, this team should theoreticallywin more games.

But there's little evidence to suggest that will happen. Most athletes coming back from ACL surgery don't get back to form until the second year post-surgery, if at all.

You forgot "unmitigated" and/or "unsubstantiated".

It was nowhere near a shit roster.

Very few GMs in the last decade have inherited as much high-end talent as Pioli did when he came into this organization.

And he's done jack shit with it.

Necessary re-post.

Laz is certainly an asshat.

They have a shot EVERY year.

They choose not to take it.

Ask Washington how to get a QB when you're not drafting Top 2.

I am quoting this post to show my agreement with it's content.

Hater.

Built the deepest team on both sides of the ball that we've seen in a really, really long time.

Developed talent that was un- and under-developed under Herm.

Has had two good drafts ('10 and '11) to one bad one ('09). Even including the 2009 draft, arguably no team in the NFL has drafted better in that three year span. And has signed relatively strong value guys in the offseasons.

All his coaching hires after 2009 have been rock solid, with the possible exception of Daboll.

Are you kidding me?

If they return at 80% of their abilities, a reasonable bet, this team will improve.

Unless you prefer a 100% Jackie Battle and Jon McGraw.

In which case, you can have 'em.

I don't like that trade for us, I really don't. I don't like Griffin enough to toss two first rounders and a second into a hole for him.

This was a pathetic year for QBs. Like the one before it was.

We'll revisit this conversation next year at this time, I'm sure of it.

If the 2013 offseason and draft has come and gone, and Cassel isn't either (a.) replaced, or (b.) clearly holding the spot for the true QBotF that is on the roster as of that moment, I will 100% change my tune.

Pioli was out there doing hand-drills with Johnson?

Bowe is the exact same player now he was 3 years ago. Flowers, Carr and Hali just needed experience. Give me a break with that crap - Pioli gets zero credit for 'developing' a bunch of rookies and 2nd year players. They all showed flashes and simply matured and gained experience.

2010 was not a good draft. At best it was average. I've had this discussion with you before, but the bottom line is that he wasted the 2nd round, traded up to get the 4th best TE in the draft (and an injury prone one at that) and apart from his no-brainer in Berry and a nice guard in Asomoah (the same position so many have cried is so easy to fin), added very little reliable talent to this roster in 2010.

His hires have been rock solid? Well apart from Haley being a ****ing lunatic - sure. Mostly he just kept a bunch of guys in the organization that was already here and hired Crennel. That's it. His only 'rock solid' hire was Romeo.

It's hard to argue against this, but he had neglected the QB positions for reasons not entirely clear, and that is why he gets flamed.

We are the anti-Colts. They had the QB and not much else*; we have the much more complete roster with nearly nothing at QB. While Manning was healthy, who was doing better?


* Freeney and Mathis are the only two guys I can name off that defense, and Peyton clearly made the other good players on offense better, not to mention how their opponents had to play from behind a majprity of the time.

:spock::spock::spock:

Dead wrong. He's developed it.

Carr, Flowers, Dorsey -- all took massive steps forward under the coaches that Pioli's hired.

If you want to take one of those players away from me, claiming they were already going to be that good, I'll give you Flowers, and that's it.

Carr became a #1 corner, and Dorsey became an elite run stopper at the DE position. And we took several players who were underperforming for multiple years before Pioli arrived -- Bowe, Hali, Johnson -- and turned them into All Pros and Pro Bowlers.

Either everybody just coincidentally hit their stride at the same exact moment, or Herm and Carl's talent development was somewhere near terrible, whereas Pioli's has been adequate to great.

More like the 28th best team....in Missouri. :P

Would you really have done what the Redskins have done?

They have sold out their future, repeatedly, since Snyder has owned the team.
They have to, they gotta sell the fan base on the hype.
I would not trade talent with the Redskins, and by your very own words earlier, RG3 hasn't proven anything in the NFL yet.
If the Chiefs players haven't he sure as hell hasn't. See how that works?

You say that like those players were all playing great before Pioli got here. At the end of '08 if you'd have listed those players and called them great talent, you'd be laughed at. They became great or really good in the last 3 years. Being moved to the 3-4 is the best thing that ever happened to Hali, Johnson is finally putting it together, but 3 years ago he was underachieving.

Also I like how the 2012 draft is already an abortion for you. And they 2010 draft wasn't bad either.

You can't blame Pioli when prospects don't turn out -- then refuse to credit him when they do.

His coaches, his successes and failures.

You're wrong, bud.

Berry, McCluster, Arenas, Asamoah, Moeaki, Lewis?

You can quibble about the values each was taken at, and I'm on record agreeing with you. But we got solid starters at RG and FS and NCB, added a potential Pro Bowler in Moeaki, an All Pro in Berry, and McCluster, whom nobody really has any idea what to do with him.

I understand the hate on the value of some of the players, as well as McCluster. But we got a haul from that draft, which is better than something like 95% of the teams do in every draft.

McCluster, Arenas and Moeaki are not good picks. Nickle backs and kick returners are not, under any circumstances, worth 2nd rounders. And Moeaki was an injury risk that's already missed half-his career and has been less productive than multiple TEs taken after him.

Berry was simply too damn simple for me to give him credit for.

I'll concede I forgot Lewis. Lewis was a good pick. But it's still no more than an average draft considering the position we sat in each of those rounds (at the very top) as well as the fact that we had an extra 2nd rounder.

Hell, thats optimistic.

I mentioned the hate in an earlier post, tongue-in-cheek.

Of course he ran with it like a 12 yr old. LOL

Carr and Flowers were developing extremely well as rookies. And Carr damn near got demolished by Haley when he arrived; he got knocked backwards by the coaching staff, IMO. Dorsey's skill-set is nowhere near worth the #5 overall pick yet many were arguing we got the steal of the first round when he slipped to us in the 1st the year we took him. Dorsey was an elite talent coming out of school that has become nothing more than a throw-away lunch-pail player that absolutely needs to be upgraded.

Bowe, and Johnson were all well on their way to being good players until Haley came in and shit all over them in 2009. So yeah, compared to what Haley turned them into in 2009, they were gangbusters in 2010. They'd have been just as well off under adequate coaching from damn near anyone. Pioli gets credit for Bowe....that just cracks me up.

How is 8 wins optimistic when they won 7 last season with all the injuries?

Potential Pro Bowler in Moeaki...

Holy shit, that's rich.

I guess it's possible there's a year in which Gronkowski, Hernandez, Gates and Keller all die...

And Moeaki actually stays healthy.

My only beef with Pioli is the QB position.

You can't keep failing at that position.

It sickens me to think how good this team could be with a solid QB.

Bruce Gradkowski is NOT going to make the Pro Bowl. ;)

Pioli actually should get some credit for Dorsey and Hali. He could have looked at the two of them and said "they don't fit what I want to do" and sent them packing. Lord knows a lot of people here wanted (and some still want in Dorsey's case) to do it.

Well done, Capt. Obvious :)

Wow, how could I possibly have missed how this was a "tongue in cheek" comment?

Nice backpedal.

:clap:

Well played, sir.

When you want to dive back into discussion, rather than fire off drive-bys, we've got a thread here you can use.

Moeaki has Pro Bowl upside, with a really good quarterback a 70-80 catch season isn't terribly unlikely.

LOL When is the phrase "Haters gotta hate" a serious comment?

Say stupid shit, get called on it.

He's the 4th best TE in his draft class, much less the league.

When he's actually playing, that is.

You can't keep saying "possible" while ignoring the fact that the only reason anyone worried about that pick was his injury risk.

He's injury prone - period. He was injury prone in college and now he's straining his body even harder to compete with larger, faster men then ever before. He's being hit by guys that hit harder than ever. He's not going to suddenly escape the injury issues.

He's always going to be an injury risk. Even if he gives you a healthy season, can you truly count on him for the following season? Can you ever truly build an offense with him identified as a critical contributor?

I just don't see it. He's an injury risk that's been injured as a professional. He has the potential to do great things in this league...just as he did going into the draft. But alas, the dude can't stay on the field and if you can't rely on the guy, what good is he?

Since when is the phrase, "you cant be so blind in your hate to say this team would not compete for SB with a good QB" not a serious comment?

LMAO

What he said.

Like I said earlier, I understand disliking the value of the players. But that's like criticizing a tree for being too slow -- every team is all over the place everywhere on value for picks, with the exception of maybe the Bengals, who seem to use a different system from everybody else.

But there's no questioning we got a really good haul that 95% of the NFL can't match.

I'm not willing to warrant that bad grade simply because I wish they picked the players in a different order.

Well we just have alternate versions of history. Apparently Johnson was on a four-year learning curve that Haley just happened to arrive at. Apparently Bowe was on a two-year learning curve that Haley just happened to arrive at. Apparently Tamba Hali was on a three-year learning curve that Haley just happened to arrive at. Apparently Carr was on a two-year ascention to becoming a #1 corner that Haley just happened to arrive at.

Like I said, if that's the line you want to take, I'm going to disagree with that. I'm going with the easiest line to believe -- that Herm and Carl's system of development was grossly poor, and Pioli's has been, at the very least, effective.

I believe you meant to say PURE HATE

That's fair.

Snappy comeack.

Whether we have top five talent or not, a great QB masks a lot of weaknesses. I think some people (including myself) forget sometimes that we have Cassel behind center when evaluating our team. QB is a pretty important position...understatement of the century.

I'm just bemused by it, is all.

What the hell would we argue about if the Chiefs actually won a SB?

no comment?

I fail to see how Bowe being arguably the most productive WR of his class the first 2 years suggests a 'learning curve'.

86 catches for over 1,000 yards and 7 TDs as a Sophomore sure looks a hell of a lot like 81 catches for over 1,100 yards and 5 TDs during his 5th season in the league, doesn't it?

Bowe's the same player he's always been, even as a rookie. He's not one cent better than he was when Haley came into KC.

Look at what Johnson did his 3rd year in the league - 94 tackles, 4 sacks and 2 picks; 3 FF. As a sophomore in 13 games due to injury he had 76 tackles, 4.5 sacks and 2 FF. As a rookie the dude had damn near 100 tackles and 2 sacks.

He's marginally better, perhaps, than he was in his first 4 seasons in the league. But it's pure revisionist history (and buying into Haley's bullshit benching) to suggest that DJ wasn't well on his way to being a very good player before Haley came into town and shit all over him in 2009.

We'd argue about who actually won it.

I call Bullshit. I don't really care what the stats say, he was making better plays, this last year. Plays he would not have made before.

People would complain because we wouldn't have the talent to make it to multiple Super Bowls and that it was just a one time, luck thing.

And that's regardless of if our team actually was extremely talented or not.

Man if we won the Super Bowl in my lifetime I wouldn't be complaining for a LONG time. Football is my favorite sport and the Chiefs are my favorite team so the Chiefs winning the Super Bowl would be icing on the sports cake for me. You could take all my teams away but the Chiefs.

The problem I see with some in the fan base is the over-evaluation of talent that is on this team.

The Chiefs have SUCKED through Gunther, Herm, and Todd. Now that the team is beginning to improve, I think much of the fan base feels as if a lot more of the players are irreplacable and that opinion is skewed by 10+ years of suckage.

IMO the only player on this team that has potential as a future HOF and would be VERY difficult to replace would be Eric Berry. Other than that, I ain't losing sleep over any player losing his job for a potential upgrade.

If i had to pick a side, I'd pick Direkshun's in this argument, because in no way do i believe the Chiefs are a bottom 10 team in terms of talent. I'd put them 15-20. This is ignoring the QB obviously.

The one thing I'd like to weigh in on is Bowe.

I see "Bowe is the same receiver" get mentioned all the time.

That's such BS.

Bowe is a far better WR today than he was his Rookie/Sophmore seasons. His numbers may be the same, but numbers don't tell the whole story and you guys know it.

He looks far more polished out there today then he did before. I'd venture to say he looks quicker as well. He's more consistent too.

He is NOT the same WR he was 3 years ago.

Without Cassell this is a top 15 team, with him they have a shot at the whole thing.

Yes. The Chiefs won the division two seasons ago with Cassel and a full allotment of players, but somehow with MORE talent and those '10 players coming back...healthy...we're one of the five worst teams in the league.

Makes sense.
:rolleyes:

Insane, people just love to bitch.

That would speak to the 'overvaluation' of the talent on the team.

Just because you see a better player than the guy we had 4 years ago, doesn't mean he really is.

He's essentially the same guy. Still has the same maddening drops. Still capable of the same highlight reel catches. He's a damn good WR, but he was a damn good WR from the moment he put on the uniform.

To me, this is the most talented Chiefs team since the 1997 Chiefs. They're a better overall team than the 2003 Chiefs because this team actually has a great defense.

This team has an above average offense with Charles and Moeaki coming back, along with the familiarity of Steve Breaston and Baldwin in year 2 of their contracts.

Cassel is the only true weak link on the offense. You could also include Lilja. But his replacement is already waiting in line.

This takes me to 1997.

This is the most talented team since 1997.

Obviously, if this team had Trent Green the expectations would be the Super Bowl.

My thoughts exactly.

Hahaha

Some of you have lost your minds.

Even Hamas said we are a superbowl team albeit qb.

Then we have OTWP saying we are the 26th best teM in the NFL...buy will probably win 8 games.

I can't wait to read the rest of this later.

Lots of laughs.

He's more consistent now than before. He's a better, more polished player now. You said he was the same guy. He isn't. Same goes for DJ, Hali, etc.

This, he was good, but he is approaching the elite talent level now. Of course some growth is expected, but I give a lot of the credit to Haley, as that is where his expertise was.
Anything above a receiver's coach for Haley, was invoking the peter principle.

Hell, the defense alone makes this a middle of the pack team. This is a braindead list.

DUDE.

I keep telling you:

You can't look at last year's team as a legit 7-win team.

We got practically gifted five of those wins because we played Caleb Hanie, Tim Tebow, Donovan McNabb, Curtis Painter and Kyle Boller.

Hanie and Tebow threw up all of 3 points against us. Boller threw up 0.

Painter sucked for an entire scoreless half, paving the way for our "comeback." McNabb was McNabb.

Last year's Chiefs were a 4-12 team that ran into some really shitty quarterbacks. I would be shocked if we held 3 teams to 3 or fewer points this season.

That is the stupidest logic I've ever heard. ****, you are the worst football poster on this forum.

By your logic, every team should start deducting wins off their schedule because they beat teams with bad QB's.

I swear, you are borderline downs.

How many wins did the pats get that don't count? How about GB?

LMAO

Pioli has a good idea: draft players to replace him.

Well, why did you even ask the question then. :evil:

I didn't say those wins didn't count. Try to keep up.

Direckshun is sitting here saying last year's team, even without Berry, Charles and Mo, is worth 7 wins THIS SEASON.

Add those other players and you get 10-6 or something like that.

THIS SEASON...we're unlikely to face that many horrible quarterbacks who are going to gift us wins. That's truly an alignment of the stars.

It's no different than saying the 2010 Chiefs weren't as good as their record indicated...or the 1995 Chiefs, etc.

The problem with the 2010 Division win was that the division sucked and the schedule was ridiculously easy. They didn't beat a single good team (perhaps one "meh" team in eternally underperforming San Diego), and got curbstomped in the playoffs. Basically they were the 2007 Jayhawks, only Baltimore was waiting for them at the end and not the Chokies.

Yeah, because we didn't have serious injuries to deal with just like everybody else. You moron.

He might be marginally better due to age and experience.

But I don't see how you can argue he's jumped up a tier. Even in his career season he cost us a game with a critical 3rd down drop. Last year he dropped a TD right before the interception that cost us a chance at the playoffs.

He was slightly underrated as a young WR and I think we're slightly overrating what he is now. Bowe is a fringe #1; one of the top 15-20 WRs in the game. He probably wasn't ranked quite that high to begin with age and attrition has taken some players out of the ranks of competition. He's presently in his physical prime and playing as such.

But I just don't see the refinement to his game that you all do. His greatest strides have been as a blocker, but he'll still roll out his routes and he'll still drop big plays...right before making a spectacular one.

Same guy, IMO. Slightly better, perhaps, but ultimately he's 90% similar to what he was when Haley showed up.

The Broncos should have gone winless and drafting ahead of the Colts. ROFL

But don't you see, the injuries pretty much cancel each other out.

Give the Bears back Cutler and Forte, give the Chiefs back Charles and Berry.

I bet the Bears beat the Chiefs.

Don't even want to think about what happens if you give the Colts back Manning, or if the Raiders don't have to start Kyle Boller. Berry and Charles didn't save us from a healthy Raiders team in 2010, for sure.

If the injuries pretty much cancel each other out, WTF are you bringing them up? Oh yeah, to prove your fake point.

The Broncos were definitely paper tigers, and that's why their front office had the foresight to get Manning and dump Tebow.