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-   -   Chiefs Maas on 610 - There's no leadership...bring Marty as consultant (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=264489)

el borracho 10-02-2012 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan (Post 8966151)
Discuss :D
There is no point to this plan. If you think your GM needs that much help, then you need to fire him immediately.

el borracho 10-02-2012 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrae (Post 8966346)
I have been surprised by the lack of on-the-field leadership with this team. Pioli made a point of drafting team captain types but I don't see them on Sunday. I see no one with passion and fire getting in people's faces to fire them up also. This leads to slow starts, never leading a game all season except the final score in NO, and just a lackluster attitude from the team. Charles' big runs seems to get them fired up but we need someone who will get these players excited to play each week at the start of the game.
If you are looking for someone to get the players fired up, then you do not want a bunch of boy scouts like Cassel- you actually want a talented loud-mouth with an aggressive streak like Ray Lewis.

BossChief 10-02-2012 06:44 PM
Get this team a quarterback and it will cure 80% of it's problems.

el borracho 10-02-2012 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCTitus (Post 8966383)
Weak sauce...it's not an either/or option and silly to make such a ludicrous logical jump.

The Marty years were a mirage, go back and watch the games -- many of them KC had no business winning were never in the game and pulled out a miracle KO/Punt return, etc. Pffft...it's a waste of time to argue about Marty.

He's a proven loser. Just leave him be.
Marty did poorly in the playoffs, that is true. And one can argue all day long whether that was his fault or circumstance. But... Marty is not a "loser." IIRC, Marty had one of the best winning percentages of active coaches while he was here and that figure probably improved in San Diego.

Mojo Jojo 10-02-2012 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971519)
**** this. Marty already consulted Hunt. That's how the Chiefs ended up with Pioli.

And **** Cowher. He's been out of the game since 2006. That's a long time.
Not as long as Dick Vermeil, and he came back and won a Super Bowl with a team that the worst in the NFL when he took over. Your logic is flawed.

chiefzilla1501 10-02-2012 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho (Post 8971558)
Marty did poorly in the playoffs, that is true. And one can argue all day long whether that was his fault or circumstance. But... Marty is not a "loser." IIRC, Marty had one of the best winning percentages of active coaches while he was here and that figure probably improved in San Diego.
Marty is considered to be one of the best fundamentals/technical coaches to ever coached the game. His teams play with perfect technique and an unbelievable amount of discipline.

It's just too bad he just can't win in the playoffs. But if you blend Marty's coaching with someone else calling the shots, that would be one hell of a thing.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo Jojo (Post 8971563)
Not as long as Dick Vermeil, and he came back and won a Super Bowl with a team that the worst in the NFL when he took over. Your logic is flawed.
And you're a ****ing idiot.

Rausch 10-02-2012 06:53 PM
So we should hire someone so Clark can find out what the **** is going on in his own organization?

Seriously?

No wonder this team is a ****ing joke...

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8971567)
Marty is considered to be one of the best fundamentals/technical coaches to ever coached the game.
By whom?

If he was so great, why hasn't he been hired by an NFL in ANY capacity since being fired in San Diego?

chiefzilla1501 10-02-2012 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 8971578)
So we should hire someone so Clark can find out what the **** is going on in his own organization?

Seriously?

No wonder this team is a ****ing joke...
I don't see a problem with this if it means dismantling Pioli's ****ed up regime, and Marty consulting on both a General Manager he'd gladly work for as a head coach, and helping out in interviewing the next head coach.

chiefzilla1501 10-02-2012 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971585)
By whom?

If he was so great, why hasn't he been hired by an NFL in ANY capacity since being fired in San Diego?
Because he can't win in the playoffs and because I believe he wants control over personnel, which nobody wants to give him (nor should they).

It doesn't take away from the fact that in terms of coaching football players, he is one hell of a coach.

KCDC 10-02-2012 07:04 PM
A consultant is fine, but Marty is a coach of a bygone era best left bygone. The NFL is different today. The good news is that any consultant would tell Clark that there is no leadership. He would report the following:

1) The QB needs to be replaced.
2) No back up QBs appear to have any talent as a starter and should be released.
3) RAC is a nice old man who motivates players by being a nice old man from a bygone era when defenses were designed to stop the run. He is not HC material.
4) Brian Daboll has passion, but little talent. He has yet to figure out how to orchestrate an offense that ranks above 29th in the league. The Chiefs have offensive personnel that should rank much higher. We should find a better OC.
5) The "ACL 3" have underperformed this year. Berry is looking like an average safety, Moeki is playing like Jake O'Connell. JC is still playing well though not with the same speed he had pre-ACL injury. The current OC believes in running him often and between the tackles until he is broken like Larry Johnson.
6) Eric Winston is eating too much Oklahoma Joe's BBQ and needs to improve.
7) The defensive line is not the most important position in the NFL anymore. Tom Dimitrioff learned that you use your first round picks to select impact players (e.g. QB and WR)
8) Pioli should get a scolding that he should learn what every other Bellicheck Tree coach has proven ... they are nothing without Tom Brady. Most coaches going to the Hall of Fame get there because they had a HoF QB. The Patriot Way is: No name defense + an adequate offense + Tom Brady = Superbowl. Take away Tom Brady and you have a team like the chiefs.

I would not fire Pioli if he admitted his failings and accepted the recommendations of the consultant. He still has talent when it comes to drafting and cap control.

Brock 10-02-2012 07:06 PM
LMAO It wouldn't surprise me if they did make a run at Marty. "Hey guys, we tried something new and it didn't work. Let's get back to what we know works!"

Rausch 10-02-2012 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock (Post 8971627)
LMAO It wouldn't surprise me if they did make a run at Marty. "Hey guys, we tried something new and it didn't work. Let's get back to what we know works!"
We could hire Girlbac as QB coach!

Coogs 10-02-2012 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971618)
I would not fire Pioli if he admitted his failings and accepted the recommendations of the consultant. He still has talent when it comes to drafting and cap control.
Really? What has he done drafting that sets him apart from the rest?

And that is a serious question or two.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971618)
A consultant is fine, but Marty is a coach of a bygone era best left bygone. The NFL is different today. The good news is that any consultant would tell Clark that there is no leadership. He would report the following:

1) The QB needs to be replaced.
2) No back up QBs appear to have any talent as a starter and should be released.
3) RAC is a nice old man who motivates players by being a nice old man from a bygone era when defenses were designed to stop the run. He is not HC material.
4) Brian Daboll has passion, but little talent. He has yet to figure out how to orchestrate an offense that ranks above 29th in the league. The Chiefs have offensive personnel that should rank much higher. We should find a better OC.
5) The "ACL 3" have underperformed this year. Berry is looking like an average safety, Moeki is playing like Jake O'Connell. JC is still playing well though not with the same speed he had pre-ACL injury. The current OC believes in running him often and between the tackles until he is broken like Larry Johnson.
6) Eric Winston is eating too much Oklahoma Joe's BBQ and needs to improve.
7) The defensive line is not the most important position in the NFL anymore. Tom Dimitrioff learned that you use your first round picks to select impact players (e.g. QB and WR)
8) Pioli should get a scolding that he should learn what every other Bellicheck Tree coach has proven ... they are nothing without Tom Brady. Most coaches going to the Hall of Fame get there because they had a HoF QB. The Patriot Way is: No name defense + an adequate offense + Tom Brady = Superbowl. Take away Tom Brady and you have a team like the chiefs.

I would not fire Pioli if he admitted his failings and accepted the recommendations of the consultant. He still has talent when it comes to drafting and cap control.
:Lin:

What a bunch of ****ing nonsense.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 8971631)
We could hire Girlbac as QB coach!
Grbac and Gannon

Raiderhater 10-02-2012 07:18 PM
Some times I feel hypocritical for insulting other fan bases based on their lack of intelligence.

FAX 10-02-2012 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971618)
A consultant is fine, but Marty is a coach of a bygone era best left bygone. The NFL is different today. The good news is that any consultant would tell Clark that there is no leadership. He would report the following:

1) The QB needs to be replaced. Very true and well said, Mr. KCDC.

2) No back up QBs appear to have any talent as a starter and should be released. Probably. Although, it might be a good idea to see Stanzi play a couple of snaps with the first stringers before we permanently can him. They say that it takes time for most quarterbacks to make the transition to the NFL.

3) RAC is a nice old man who motivates players by being a nice old man from a bygone era when defenses were designed to stop the run. He is not HC material. He is round, too. Very round.

4) Brian Daboll has passion, but little talent. He has yet to figure out how to orchestrate an offense that ranks above 29th in the league. The Chiefs have offensive personnel that should rank much higher. We should find a better OC. After Al Saunders, the very idea of Daboll functioning as the Chiefs OC is an insult to all fans of the red and gold everywhere.

5) The "ACL 3" have underperformed this year. Berry is looking like an average safety, Moeki is playing like Jake O'Connell. JC is still playing well though not with the same speed he had pre-ACL injury. The current OC believes in running him often and between the tackles until he is broken like Larry Johnson. I don't know if Jamaal's straight line speed has been affected much. I do, however, wonder about his ability to cut with confidence. As for Moeaki and Berry, yeah ... there are issues, I fear.

6) Eric Winston is eating too much Oklahoma Joe's BBQ and needs to improve. Don't we all? But life is for learning. And we are stardust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden because vegetables are good for you so long as you're also getting approximately 60 grams of quality protein each day.

7) The defensive line is not the most important position in the NFL anymore. Tom Dimitrioff learned that you use your first round picks to select impact players (e.g. QB and WR) Tell that to the Giants. Then run away.

8) Pioli should get a scolding that he should learn what every other Bellicheck Tree coach has proven ... they are nothing without Tom Brady. Most coaches going to the Hall of Fame get there because they had a HoF QB. The Patriot Way is: No name defense + an adequate offense + Tom Brady = Superbowl. Take away Tom Brady and you have a team like the chiefs. Truer words have not been spoken, although I think they might be a tad worse than the Chiefs (which should always be capitalized in this context). We have talented players in key positions. They are, unfortunately, poorly coached at this point and it shows.

I would not fire Pioli if he admitted his failings and accepted the recommendations of the consultant. He still has talent when it comes to drafting and cap control. A GM who is paid 5 million dollars a year and who has won the Executive Of The Year Golden Hand Vac Award 19 years running should not require a consultant to tell him what to do. A guy like that should be able to recruit, hire, train, and retain an highly effective staff of professionals who can accomplish impressive goals in reasonable time frames.
FAX

Rausch 10-02-2012 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader (Post 8971669)
Some times I feel hypocritical for insulting other fan bases based on their lack of intelligence.
At some point it's our fault.

It's like we're the husband on Boogie Nights and the Chiefs are our wife banging 6 guys in the driveway...:facepalm:

whoman69 10-02-2012 07:31 PM
They need something. I would be afraid that Marty's first suggestion is for him to take over as coach/GM.

KCDC 10-02-2012 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs (Post 8971642)
Really? What has he done drafting that sets him apart from the rest?

And that is a serious question or two.
His first year draft was horrid. After that, he did well. Look at the grades given him by the pundits after each draft. We all felt good seeing independent analysts giving us A- drafts while other clubs got Cs.

He avoided the Jimmy Clausen hype and took Berry and McCluster. The latter has his detractors but he is a perfect receiver for Captain Checkdown Cassel. Arenas was a good pick and would be even more valuable if they blitzed him more. He was a star blitzer in college. Getting Stanzi and K. Lewis in the 5th and Powe in the 6th were brilliant at the time.

Trading back to get Baldwin and then using the extra 3rd round pick to get Houston was superb. Bailey has yet to pan out but I think he will be a good one. Jeff Allen will prove to be a good pick. Stephenson might have been a reach but we needed all the help we could get on the line to help Cassel not panic as much and to prepare for B. Albert's potential departure.

All in all, a fine job of drafting the past three years. With 20-20 hindsight he could have done better, but anyone could.

He blew it in the Cassel trade now that we have the ability to see him for what he is. But, he could have traded a bunch of picks to move up to take Sanchez and crippled our team with a Cassel-quality QB and far fewer picks. He could have burned a first rounder on Jimmy Clausen, only to learn that Stanzi's fail is better.

Frazod 10-02-2012 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoman69 (Post 8971700)
They need something. I would be afraid that Marty's first suggestion is for him to take over as coach/GM.
Sadly, he would be an improvement on both counts.

Coogs 10-02-2012 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971787)
His first year draft was horrid. After that, he did well. Look at the grades given him by the pundits after each draft. We all felt good seeing independent analysts giving us A- drafts while other clubs got Cs.

He avoided the Jimmy Clausen hype and took Berry and McCluster. The latter has his detractors but he is a perfect receiver for Captain Checkdown Cassel. Arenas was a good pick and would be even more valuable if they blitzed him more. He was a star blitzer in college. Getting Stanzi and K. Lewis in the 5th and Powe in the 6th were brilliant at the time.

Trading back to get Baldwin and then using the extra 3rd round pick to get Houston was superb. Bailey has yet to pan out but I think he will be a good one. Jeff Allen will prove to be a good pick. Stephenson might have been a reach but we needed all the help we could get on the line to help Cassel not panic as much and to prepare for B. Albert's potential departure.

All in all, a fine job of drafting the past three years. With 20-20 hindsight he could have done better, but anyone could.

He blew it in the Cassel trade now that we have the ability to see him for what he is. But, he could have traded a bunch of picks to move up to take Sanchez and crippled our team with a Cassel-quality QB and far fewer picks. He could have burned a first rounder on Jimmy Clausen, only to learn that Stanzi's fail is better.
So you really have nothing then. There is not one thing here that any GM couldn't have done.

His best pick was Berry, and that one fell in his lap.

The Baldwin/Houston deal, Cleveland called and made an offer... their early 3rd for a trade back of a few spots in the late 1st...so he took it. Not a shrude move that any other GM couldn't have pulled off. And he got lucky that Houston fell due to issues.

KCDC 10-02-2012 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs (Post 8971830)
So you really have nothing then. There is not one thing here that any GM couldn't have done.

His best pick was Berry, and that one fell in his lap.

The Baldwin/Houston deal, Cleveland called and made an offer... their early 3rd for a trade back of a few spots in the late 1st...so he took it. Not a shrude move that any other GM couldn't have pulled off. And he got lucky that Houston fell due to issues.
Any GM can have good picks and trades, that is true. Pioli is no Superman to reinvent the draft. My point is that if you compared Pioli's drafts to those of other GMs in the same period, he would stack up favorably.

chiefzilla1501 10-02-2012 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs (Post 8971830)
So you really have nothing then. There is not one thing here that any GM couldn't have done.

His best pick was Berry, and that one fell in his lap.

The Baldwin/Houston deal, Cleveland called and made an offer... their early 3rd for a trade back of a few spots in the late 1st...so he took it. Not a shrude move that any other GM couldn't have pulled off. And he got lucky that Houston fell due to issues.
Well, you have to look at what he was given. This team had zero bench depth and over half of our starters aren't even in the league anymore. They were that bad. He took over that roster and actually rounded it out quite nicely, and he did it without spending very much money. You don't have to bring in a ton of superstars to build a good roster.

Again, he has built a mostly good team and sabotaged it with unbelievably arrogant decisions around the coaching and the quarterback. Behind a good coach and a good QB, this team is very good. Which is a lot more than you can say for the team we had in 2009.

Coogs 10-02-2012 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971857)
Any GM can have good picks and trades, that is true. Pioli is no Superman to reinvent the draft. My point is that if you compared Pioli's drafts to those of other GMs in the same period, he would stack up favorably.
Jury is still out. None of his picks have really turned into anything special... yet! A couple do show promise, but from 4 years of draft picks you would hope more than a couple would stand out. Best players are still arguably holdovers from the previous regime.

boogblaster 10-02-2012 08:25 PM
yup

Coogs 10-02-2012 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 8971868)
Well, you have to look at what he was given. This team had zero bench depth and over half of our starters aren't even in the league anymore. They were that bad. He took over that roster and actually rounded it out quite nicely, and he did it without spending very much money. You don't have to bring in a ton of superstars to build a good roster.

Again, he has built a mostly good team and sabotaged it with unbelievably arrogant decisions around the coaching and the quarterback. Behind a good coach and a good QB, this team is very good. Which is a lot more than you can say for the team we had in 2009.
You have noticed we are getting our asses handed to us in each of the 4 games this season. Down by 24, 32, 18 (Still not sure how we managed to beat the Saints), and 21. I'd like to think we have a good roster outside of Cassel... but to be honest I am not real sure.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971857)
Any GM can have good picks and trades, that is true. Pioli is no Superman to reinvent the draft. My point is that if you compared Pioli's drafts to those of other GMs in the same period, he would stack up favorably.
Bullshit.

The Chiefs passed up massive talent in favor of gadget players like McCluster and Arenas, oft-injured players like Moeaki (over Gronk, Graham and Hernandez) and his 2009 draft was a ****ing abortion.

You're clueless.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs (Post 8971871)
Jury is still out. None of his picks have really turned into anything special... yet! A couple do show promise, but from 4 years of draft picks you would hope more than a couple would stand out. Best players are still arguably holdovers from the previous regime.
The jury is NOT out.

McCluster, Arena and Moeaki were all bad selections. The 2009 draft was pathetic. 2011, outside of Houston and a rarely used Bailey has been just as bad as 2009. And 2012's draft has failed to yield any sort of game changer.

Pioli has sucked ass. You'd think there would be an abundance of talent on this roster, especially given that he's selected 3rd, 5th and 11th three drafts and in every round, but he hasn't done dick.

He blows.

Rausch 10-02-2012 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971857)
My point is that if you compared Pioli's drafts to those of other GMs in the same period, he would stack up favorably.
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12...wHSS3R_hQ2.gif

No...

BossChief 10-02-2012 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971900)
Bullshit.

The Chiefs passed up massive talent in favor of gadget players like McCluster and Arenas, oft-injured players like Moeaki (over Gronk, Graham and Hernandez) and his 2009 draft was a ****ing abortion.

You're clueless.
He has been an above average drafter.

His fatal flaw was that he didn't think he would need to draft a quarterback as part of that plan.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8971913)
He has been an above average drafter.

His fatal flaw was that he didn't think he would need to draft a quarterback as part of that plan.
No, he hasn't.

2009 was utterly worthless. In 2010, while he got lucky that Berry was sitting there, he passed on Daryl Washington, Sean Lee, Lindval Joseph, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez and more.

2011 doesn't look much better. While Houston was a steal in the third, Baldwin's been invisible, Hudson's out with a broken leg and didn't look that good this year, Jalil Brown is a dope, so on and so forth.

He's been maybe average at best but IMO, far less than average. And who the **** pays a guy $5 million per to be average?

Coogs 10-02-2012 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971909)
The jury is NOT out.

McCluster, Arena and Moeaki were all bad selections. The 2009 draft was pathetic. 2011, outside of Houston and a rarely used Bailey has been just as bad as 2009. And 2012's draft has failed to yield any sort of game changer.

Pioli has sucked ass. You'd think there would be an abundance of talent on this roster, especially given that he's selected 3rd, 5th and 11th three drafts and in every round, but he hasn't done dick.

He blows.
I was trying to be kind.

FAX 10-02-2012 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971909)
... You'd think there would be an abundance of talent on this roster, especially given that he's selected 3rd, 5th and 11th three drafts and in every round ...
That's the key, right there.

We've had pretty high selections each year and we've picked like we're playing blind craps. When you look at the "draft" quality of our defensive front 7, we should be dominating ... not domino-ing.

FAX

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAX (Post 8971928)
That's the key, right there.

We've had pretty high selections each year and we've picked like we're playing blind craps. When you look at the "draft" quality of our defensive front 7, we should be dominating ... not domino-ing.

FAX
Had Pioli taken Washington and Joseph (let alone, offensive gems like Hernandez or Graham), this defense would be much further along. Instead, we're stuck with a tiny receiver that makes 3 yard catches and a returner.

Bewbies 10-02-2012 08:58 PM
If Pioli was hitting on draft picks we wouldn't get our ass kicked every week. I'd classify this as a self evident fact.

ChiefsCountry 10-02-2012 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8971787)
He blew it in the Cassel trade now that we have the ability to see him for what he is. But, he could have traded a bunch of picks to move up to take Sanchez and crippled our team with a Cassel-quality QB and far fewer picks.
Umm Sanchez was available on the clock when we picked in 2009. No need to trade and Cassel crippled the team by taking away a second round choice that could have been used on somebody useful.

KCDC 10-02-2012 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971924)
No, he hasn't.

2009 was utterly worthless. In 2010, while he got lucky that Berry was sitting there, he passed on Daryl Washington, Sean Lee, Lindval Joseph, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez and more.

2011 doesn't look much better. While Houston was a steal in the third, Baldwin's been invisible, Hudson's out with a broken leg and didn't look that good this year, Jalil Brown is a dope, so on and so forth.

He's been maybe average at best but IMO, far less than average. And who the **** pays a guy $5 million per to be average?
We can always find better picks when we look back at a draft and have the benefit of hindsight.

I can remember all too well the conversations on this board pleading for the likes of Sanchez, Clausen, Aaron Curry, Jason Smith, Sergio Kindle, Eugene Monroe, etc. etc. They all were busts (except for Sanchez who will be a back up in a year or two and out of the league in five years, like Cassel). You may have supported some of those potential picks or similar busts if you are honest.

It is easy to seem like a genius when you can go back in time knowing what you do now and point out who was available at the pick. I'm trying to be fair, which is not a popular position to be in on CP, at times.

KCDC 10-02-2012 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 8972029)
Umm Sanchez was available on the clock when we picked in 2009. No need to trade and Cassel crippled the team by taking away a second round choice that could have been used on somebody useful.
Ah, I stand corrected. I was thinking of what other GMs might have done, and did, that was ill-advised.

BossChief 10-02-2012 09:18 PM
A really good draft gets you 2 quality starters and maybe another average starter.

2009 was a dumpster fire...no question.

2010 got us a handful of good players

Berry is currently dealing with a speed bump after a rookie season that ended with him starting in the probowl
Arenas is a solid nickel
Asamoah is a good guard
Lewis has also had injuries effect his impact...when he plays, he is a solid safety for a 5th rounder

I'm not gonna slam the guy by cherry picking guys that might have been better picks...getting 4 or 5 average to above average starters out of one draft is very good.

2011 netted us a lot of talent, too.

Hudson was off to a good start and was grading out pretty well.
Baldwin is a pick that has immense potential, but Cassel makes him look just average at best.
Houston is a total beast.
Brown is a corner and those take time...he is becoming quite a good special teamer in the meantime, though.
Powe might just be better than Cody would have been from the second round of 2010.

Those two drafts should be credited to Phil Emery...not Pioli. They were good enough for him to get a GM spot in Chicago.

In fact, milkman and I both said the 2011 draft has just as much (if not more) potential than the 2008 class and I stand by that.

I'm not a fan of the 2012 draft...but at least it got us some good line prosoects.

BossChief 10-02-2012 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8971944)
Had Pioli taken Washington and Joseph (let alone, offensive gems like Hernandez or Graham), this defense would be much further along. Instead, we're stuck with a tiny receiver that makes 3 yard catches and a returner.
Arenas had the third highest average on returns last year behind Peterson and Hester and is a good nickel.

Could we have done better? Yeah, probably...but let's try to be fair and not expect them to make the perfect pick with every selection. That's totally unrealistic.

I hated the Dexter pick, but the guy has been productive and has the best combination of hands and route running of any of our receivers and is tough as **** for such a little guy.

I absolutely think he will be VERY productive once we get a qb in here.

Look, I know this year has been beyond disappointing, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972050)
Arenas had the third highest average on returns last year behind Peterson and Hester and is a good nickel.
Big ****ing deal. How many touchdowns did he score? Is he a capable starter?

When you're traded for a HOFer, it's always going to be a tough road but he ****ing sucks. No one would notice if he were cut tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972050)
Could we have done better? Yeah, probably...but let's try to be fair and not expect them to make the perfect pick with every selection. That's totally unrealistic.
Probably? Are you ****ing kidding me? I'd Jason Worilds, Carlos Dunlap, Terrence Cody, Sean Lee, Ben Tate, Golden Tate and Brandon Spikes over Arenas. And that's just guys that went in the second round!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972050)
I hated the Dexter pick, but the guy has been productive and has the best combination of hands and route running of any of our receivers and is tough as **** for such a little guy.
Productive? Yeah, he's been productive but at the expense of Steve Breaston, the tight ends (you name them), Jon Baldwin and of course, Dwayne Bowe.

Without McCluster (who was overdrafted by at least 3 rounds), Cassel would have totally ****ing sucked in 2010 and wouldn't be here in 2012.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972050)
I absolutely think he will be VERY productive once we get a qb in here.
He'll be an afterthought, as he should be.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972041)
A really good draft gets you 2 quality starters and maybe another average starter.
Tell that to the Super Bowl winning 2007 New York Giants. Now, tell me that they'd even BE in that game without Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Ahmad Bradshaw, etc. and so on.

Pioli is paid $5 MILLION PER YEAR. He's SUPPOSED to be BETTER than EVERYONE ELSE IN THE NFL.

He's not. He's a ****ing oxygen thief stealing Chiefs fans money and worse, TIME!

**** him.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8972030)
We can always find better picks when we look back at a draft and have the benefit of hindsight.
What the ****?

Hey, Douchelord, there were people in this forum that had better Mock Drafts than Pioli in each and every year.

I know you're a n00b and all but that doesn't mean you get carte blanche for saying stupid ****ing shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8972030)
I can remember all too well the conversations on this board pleading for the likes of Sanchez, Clausen, Aaron Curry, Jason Smith, Sergio Kindle, Eugene Monroe, etc. etc. They all were busts (except for Sanchez who will be a back up in a year or two and out of the league in five years, like Cassel). You may have supported some of those potential picks or similar busts if you are honest.
What the **** are you talking about?

Why don't you stop talking out of your ass, Mother****er, and sit back and learn.

Or use the goddamned search function, Idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDC (Post 8972030)
It is easy to seem like a genius when you can go back in time knowing what you do now and point out who was available at the pick. I'm trying to be fair, which is not a popular position to be in on CP, at times.
Oh, just go **** yourself.

Psyko Tek 10-02-2012 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan (Post 8966151)
Discuss :D
link please

Hammock Parties 10-02-2012 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972050)
Arenas had the third highest average on returns last year behind Peterson and Hester and is a good nickel.
Arenas sucks ****ing horse cock as a cornerback.

He got toasted in New Orleans on a deep ball, got toasted against the Chargers for a TD.

Read it and weep.

http://i.imgur.com/Pf11X.jpg

Add Arenas to the pile of Pioli fail! And he only played 17 snaps last week. Great use of a high pick.

Psyko Tek 10-02-2012 09:53 PM
[QUOTE=Chiefnj2;8966351]Clark doesn't need a damn consultant to tell him what's wrong. Stevie Wonder can see what is wrong with this team. Years of poor drafting, poor coaching and players who don't care.

Winston played like Richardson yesterday. Berry played like Piscatelli. Moeaki is useless. And what might be the most telling, Cassel has regressed. I didn't think it was humanly possible for a QB to get worse than Cassel in 2011. But, hell he's done it this year. He can't even dump off the ball accurately. It's amazing how bad every single facet of the game is


hey **** you colquitt is money
and that is the best thing we got

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 8972106)
Add Arenas to the pile of Pioli fail! And he only played 17 snaps last week. Great use of a high pick.
The worst part is that he passed on some great players at NEED positions.

****ing Pioli. I hate him more today than in 2009. And that's saying a lot.

crazycoffey 10-02-2012 09:56 PM
Seriously, how much different is this team than two years ago? Minus haley and wiess. Which of those two should still be here?

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Stinson (Post 8972124)
Seriously, how much different is this team than two years ago? Minus haley and wiess. Which of those two should still be here?
Neither

crazycoffey 10-02-2012 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972128)
me
FYP

FAX 10-02-2012 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972066)
Tell that to the Super Bowl winning 2007 New York Giants. Now, tell me that they'd even BE in that game without Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Ahmad Bradshaw, etc. and so on.

Pioli is paid $5 MILLION PER YEAR. He's SUPPOSED to be BETTER than EVERYONE ELSE IN THE NFL.

He's not. He's a ****ing oxygen thief stealing Chiefs fans money and worse, TIME!

**** him.
That is exactly the point. Pioli isn't supposed to be guessing at this stage of his career and, to be brutally frank, that's exactly what his draft strategies appear to be ... guesswork.

Or ... and this is even scarier ... he's drafting outliers in order to make himself appear to be a genius ... making head-scratching picks at strange positions that nobody saw coming. The problem is that, in the meantime, we are passing up highly athletic, talented, contributing players at (as stated) positions of need while selecting what can only be described as either gadget or developmental players with really high picks.

And, the way I look at it, we suffered greatly for those damn picks and they need to be used wisely.

Chiefs fans tend to develop a sort of fondness or affinity or infatuation with players ... guys like Jackson or McDervish or Arenas or Moeaki ... but the fact is that we haven't yet seen the kind of draft that Pioli is being paid to deliver. And that, as they say in Belize, is the inside-out river snake on this deal.

FAX

BossChief 10-02-2012 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 8972106)
Arenas sucks ****ing horse cock as a cornerback.

He got toasted in New Orleans on a deep ball, got toasted against the Chargers for a TD.

Read it and weep.

http://i.imgur.com/Pf11X.jpg

Add Arenas to the pile of Pioli fail! And he only played 17 snaps last week. Great use of a high pick.
You can't even tell how that's sorted. How about sorting it by coverage?

Also, he is rated about the same as Carlos Rodgers, who is pretty good.

I would also EXPECT our corners not to be rated extremely high with such a small sample size of 4 games and having faced 3 franchise quarterbacks in those 4 games.

Hammock Parties 10-02-2012 10:33 PM
It's sorted by overall player rating. His coverage rating bumps him up to 50.

He sucks dude. Accept it.

He's a decent punt returner who can't break the big play, and a very pedestrian nickel who has 0 ability to start.

failpick

BossChief 10-02-2012 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972066)
Tell that to the Super Bowl winning 2007 New York Giants. Now, tell me that they'd even BE in that game without Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Ahmad Bradshaw, etc. and so on.

Pioli is paid $5 MILLION PER YEAR. He's SUPPOSED to be BETTER than EVERYONE ELSE IN THE NFL.

He's not. He's a ****ing oxygen thief stealing Chiefs fans money and worse, TIME!

**** him.
The giants won because of Eli Manning and a bunch of role players.

This Chiefs team would be in the hunt with a quarterback.

I don't think the rest of the roster is that big of a problem at all. Right now, they play as if they don't have a leader because they don't.

Also realize that you harp about Pioli taking role players and then champion a bunch of role player picks of NYs as proof of their superior drafting...

Go look at their draft history http://www.databasefootball.com/draf...?tm=NYG&lg=NFL show me all these drafts that they hit on most of their picks.

The big difference? Franchise quarterback.

BossChief 10-02-2012 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 8972194)
It's sorted by overall player rating. His coverage rating bumps him up to 50.

He sucks dude. Accept it.

He's a decent punt returner who can't break the big play, and a very pedestrian nickel who has 0 ability to start.

failpick
50 is damn good for a corner.

Post that sorted column, please.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972196)
The giants won because of Eli Manning and a bunch of role players.

This Chiefs team would be in the hunt with a quarterback.
You fail to address the problem: Pioli.

His drafts have been below average, his free agent acquisitions have been far below average, his coaching hires have been poor and his choice of QB an abomination.

BossChief 10-02-2012 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972220)
You fail to address the problem: Pioli.

His drafts have been below average, his free agent acquisitions have been far below average, his coaching hires have been poor and his choice of QB an abomination.
I totally disagree on the first two, Haley was perceived as a poor head coach because he was forced to do desperate things due to lacking talent and ability of the quarterback he was forcefed.

I am in complete agreement that Cassel is and has been a horrible aquisition and that singular move overshadows everything else he has done.

Ultimately, that alone should probably get him canned.

I'm sticking to my guns that I think he is an above average drafter and average (maybe a hair above) at bringing in free agents.

His fatal flaw is his handling of the quarterback position.

Jmo

Time will tell if I'm right or wrong, as always.

Hammock Parties 10-02-2012 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972200)
50 is damn good for a corner.

Post that sorted column, please.
Being rated the 50th best corner, out of 80 corners, and having a negative coverage rating IS NOT GOOD.

:facepalm:

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972246)
I totally disagree on the first two,
Pioli has had an opportunity to draft 28 players. He has had FOUR offseasons in which to sign other team's free agents.

Name the game consistent game changing players.

Thanks.

Brock 10-02-2012 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972246)
I totally disagree on the first two, Haley was perceived as a poor head coach because he was forced to do desperate things due to lacking talent and ability of the quarterback he was forcefed.
.
Give me a break. He was terrible. He couldn't work with anybody, he even ran off the only guy who made the offense work. That was a horrible hire, and even if Haley were an average coach that's still a bad hire because Pioli hired a guy he apparently hated. It made no sense from the get go.

Romeo was an even worse hire, apparently. Pioli cannot choose the next coach of this team, period.

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 8972248)
Being rated the 50th best corner, out of 80 corners, and having a negative coverage rating IS NOT GOOD.

:facepalm:
I knew you wouldn't post it.

We have faced 3 franchise quarterbacks in 4 weeks and he hasn't been bad in coverage.

What is Carrs ranking after he got destroyed by Chicago and Brandon Marshall?...iirc he was like 29th before that game.

Easy 6 10-02-2012 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan (Post 8966151)
Discuss :D
Marty wouldnt be of any more help than Marv Levy or Bill Parcells or any other big on advice, small on taking hands on action "consultants" through the years.

If the GM & Head Coach need a consultant, you're ****ed with or without one.

Rausch 10-02-2012 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972220)
You fail to address the problem: Pioli.

His drafts have been below average, his free agent acquisitions have been far below average, his coaching hires have been poor and his choice of QB an abomination.
THIS...

Rausch 10-02-2012 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock (Post 8972256)
That was a horrible hire, and even if Haley were an average coach that's still a bad hire because Pioli hired a guy he apparently hated. It made no sense from the get go.
I never understood that...

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 8972272)
I never understood that...
Nepotism.

His Father-In-Law recommended that Pioli hire Haley. Since Pioli doesn't have one single creative thought in his fat ****ing bald head, he followed Parcells advice.

Hilarity ensued.

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock (Post 8972256)
Give me a break. He was terrible. He couldn't work with anybody, he even ran off the only guy who made the offense work. That was a horrible hire, and even if Haley were an average coach that's still a bad hire because Pioli hired a guy he apparently hated. It made no sense from the get go.

Romeo was an even worse hire, apparently. Pioli cannot choose the next coach of this team, period.
I'm not a fan of the Romeo hire, but Haley had the team in shape and focused...something that is totally lost now. Look at all theinor injuries we have this year and how many penalties we have opposed to when Haley was coaching.

If we had a quarterback, who knows what happens, but you have to think we would have won the division twice in a row (we were a game off of that last year) and who knows how much else would be effected.

The Steelers forced Arians out and hired the guy because he is a quality coach, not because he sucks and is terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972251)
Pioli has had an opportunity
to draft 28 players. He has had FOUR offseasons in which to sign other team's free agents.

Name the game consistent game changing players.

Thanks.
You know as well as I do that injuries have impacted that significantly.

Berry and Moeaki were both budding stars as rookies and are still recovering from major injury that cost them their second years.

Houston is a ****ing beast that would have been a great pick if he was taken in the top 10...and we stole him with a profit pick from a trade down.

Succop is a damn fine kicker that has made his last 5 kicks over 50 yards (I added this for flare)

Other than that, Pioli has hit a bunch of singles and doubles, which is what you want.

Hammock Parties 10-02-2012 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972279)
Nepotism.

His Father-In-Law recommended that Pioli hire Haley. Since Pioli doesn't have one single creative thought in his fat ****ing bald head, he followed Parcells advice.

Hilarity ensued.
This seems like the most plausible explanation, especially considering Haley worked for Parcells in two different cities.

Trading for Cassel was very similar to what Parcells did as soon as he arrived in Miami, too, with Chad Pennington.

How it went down in Miami and how it's gone down in KC have really been quite similar. That franchise was lucky to get rid of all their Patriotards fairly quickly, though.

Hammock Parties 10-02-2012 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972285)
Berry and Moeaki were both budding stars as rookies and are still recovering from major injury that cost them their second years.
At this point, both of them suck, and we have no idea what the future may hold for either.

They have to be counted against Pioli right now.

Especially Moeaki, who had a history of injury coming out.

Jeff Allen had a dogshit game Sunday, too.

And Jon Baldwin's impact on this offense has been minimal. Though, in his defense, greater than McCluster so far. LMAO

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972279)
Nepotism.

His Father-In-Law recommended that Pioli hire Haley. Since Pioli doesn't have one single creative thought in his fat ****ing bald head, he followed Parcells advice.

Hilarity ensued.
Pioli and Haley also worked for the Jets together iirc.

DaneMcCloud 10-02-2012 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972285)
You know as well as I do that injuries have impacted that significantly.

Berry and Moeaki were both budding stars as rookies and are still recovering from major injury that cost them their second years.

Houston is a ****ing beast that would have been a great pick if he was taken in the top 10...and we stole him with a profit pick from a trade down.

Succop is a damn fine kicker that has made his last 5 kicks over 50 yards (I added this for flare)

Other than that, Pioli has hit a bunch of singles and doubles, which is what you want.
So, four guys out of 28 draftees? That's average?

:shake:

Succop? Totally unnecessary when Barth was on the roster.

Let's talk about the guys that Pioli unceremoniously cut.

How great would Babin have been opposite Hali? How about Pollard and Berry? And don't give a shit about Moeaki. What about Tom Crabtree? I'd take him over ****ing O'Connell!

Pioli passed on Graham, Hernandez and Gronk but traded up for an often injured Moeaki and he's supposed to get CREDIT for that?

Net gain: Houston.

ONE ****ING PLAYER IN FOUR DRAFTS! Woo-****ing-hoo!

Brock 10-02-2012 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972285)
I'm not a fan of the Romeo hire, but Haley had the team in shape and focused...something that is totally lost now. Look at all theinor injuries we have this year and how many penalties we have opposed to when Haley was coaching.

If we had a quarterback, who knows what happens, but you have to think we would have won the division twice in a row (we were a game off of that last year) and who knows how much else would be effected.

The Steelers forced Arians out and hired the guy because he is a quality coach, not because he sucks and is terrible.
The team looked exactly the same under Haley as it does right now, with the exception of when Weis was calling the plays. Other than that one season, they've looked like garbage and still do.

The Steelers forced Arians out for whatever reason, and now Todd's got an easy job. I congratulate him on his connections, but there wasn't anything wrong with their offense to begin with.

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 8972290)
At this point, both of them suck, and we have no idea what the future may hold for either.

They have to be counted against Pioli right now.

Especially Moeaki, who had a history of injury coming out.

Jeff Allen had a dogshit game Sunday, too.

And Jon Baldwin's impact on this offense has been minimal. Though, in his defense, greater than McCluster so far. LMAO
His fatal flaw is his handling of Cassel.

He needs to find a way to fix the qb position to save his job. His only hope at this point is Stanzi because we all know what Cassel and Quinn are.

Hammock Parties 10-02-2012 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972303)
His fatal flaw is his handling of Cassel.
I agree, but his drafts are looking worse and worse, and don't forget shitty head coaching hires.

There's not a lot to go on that actually suggests Pioli is a good GM.

At best you can say he's done an average job of improving the roster and horrible decisions at HC and QB have resulted in failure.

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 8972297)
So, four guys out of 28 draftees? That's average?

:shake:

Succop? Totally unnecessary when Barth was on the roster.

Let's talk about the guys that Pioli unceremoniously cut.

How great would Babin have been opposite Hali? How about Pollard and Berry? And don't give a shit about Moeaki. What about Tom Crabtree? I'd take him over ****ing O'Connell!

Pioli passed on Graham, Hernandez and Gronk but traded up for an often injured Moeaki and he's supposed to get CREDIT for that?

Net gain: Houston.

ONE ****ING PLAYER IN FOUR DRAFTS! Woo-****ing-hoo!
Jason Babin credits the scheme for his emergence. He has said multiple times that
this is the scheme he dominated in college at and that he really doesnt fit other ones. There is some merit to the fact that we maybe should have been the ones to realize that and not changed schemes and jettisoned him, but the guy was a bust before he got to KC and he still was one when he left...it's whatever.

I was one of the handful of guys that was pissed when Pollard was cut and he is now on a defense where he is used correctly (I have lots of posts from 2009 detailing how he SHOULD have been used and they are exactly how the Ravens use him now)...those two with Lewis as the third safety would have been ****ing great.

How much different do Gronk, Graham and Hernandez look because of Tom ****ing Brady and Drew Brees?...and how would Moeaki look in their positions? That gets us full circle on the fatal flaw point.

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock (Post 8972299)
The team looked exactly the same under Haley as it does right now, with the exception of when Weis was calling the plays. Other than that one season, they've looked like garbage and still do.

The Steelers forced Arians out for whatever reason, and now Todd's got an easy job. I congratulate him on his connections, but there wasn't anything wrong with their offense to begin with.
The Steelers forced BA out and brought in Haley because they know he was in a position where positive results were next to impossible and they recognized that he is a good coach that could make a difference for them.

Don't give me that "connections" shit, either. It's silly to think they would force a coach out (that is now a head coach on an interim basis) and brought in his replacements because of who his dad is.

BossChief 10-02-2012 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 8972306)
I agree, but his drafts are looking worse and worse, and don't forget shitty head coaching hires.

There's not a lot to go on that actually suggests Pioli is a good GM.

At best you can say he's done an average job of improving the roster and horrible decisions at HC and QB have resulted in failure.
Guys like:

Asamoah
Baldwin
McCluster
Winston
Breaston

Would be showing their true value if we didn't have a worthless turd at quarterback.

Don't forget, Orton had 2 300 yard games with these guys and no running game and he is mediocre.

If we find a way to get Geno Smith, these guys are gonna blow the **** up and the rest of the team will play energized and will seem to have "woken up" they have given up on Cassel just as we have.

kcxiv 10-02-2012 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 8972345)
Guys like:

Asamoah
Baldwin
McCluster
Winston
Breaston

Would be showing their true value if we didn't have a worthless turd at quarterback.

Don't forget, Orton had 2 300 yard games with these guys and no running game and he is mediocre.

If we find a way to get Geno Smith, these guys are gonna blow the **** up and the rest of the team will play energized and will seem to have "woken up" they have given up on Cassel just as we have.
Until then what if's dont matter, as of right now, all his draft picks have not been top notch.

Its all blah. Forsome reason though, even with the shitty ass qb, Bowe is the only WR that is consistent from week to week. Can only imagine what his numbers would be like if he had a good qb. Now there i go with the what ifs.


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