The time log disputes your claim. And it's also irrelevant to the topic.
Hey, I make typos including using its when I needed it's.

LOL If you're still in printing, you should know better. But okay.

Typesetting in the non-typewriter world was one space. The typewriter came around and they had to figure out how to deal with no kearning. So typewriter users started using two spaces. This doesn't make it right. It's a workaround that goes against established workflow. Now that typewriters are basically nonexistent, the established rules should rein.

,,,,

q

DAMMIT :banghead:

Its hilarious how devastating a single letter in a response can be.

To be fair to our friend ptlyon, the original comment was just 3 commas.

Sorry ptlyon.

I grew up with the two spaces rule, the reasoning being that it differentiates between a period used for, say, an abbreviation, and a period denoting the end of a sentence. It's a dying argument, though, because if nothing else HTML and other computer applications automatically take it out. I'm OK with that.

Regarding the Oxford Comma, however, I am resolute. There is no reason not to have it - it doesn't disrupt flow, it isn't ugly, and it doesn't confuse the message. Its benefits, however, are clear, as the Gilligan's Island example shows. I don't care what the AP says, it should be in.

The day that computers ever start automatically removing Oxford Commas is the day I set mine on fire and dump it in the river.

So was the correct answer 3 or 4?

Don't remember

Speaking of unnecessary commas...:D

Should be a period there homie

It appears that the thread has moved away from the opening post, but I just wanted to share that the Oxford comma is absolutely necessary. With the Oxford comma, I read this way.

San Diego, Denver, and Oakland

Without it, I read this way.

San Diego, DenverandOakland

It really bothers me.

Additionally, it's necessary sometimes for context. If it's not there, I assume that the final two items are the objects of another phrase until I get confused and re-read.

The Oxford Comma
 

Actually, a semicolon there would have been correct.

Not to mention the correct use of it's.

Semi-colon.

I use the Oxford Comma 100% of the time. I've fought with editors over keeping it in a piece.

Being under 30 years old, I laughed out loud when I first learned that people were once taught to do two spaces. There's never been a need for it in my lifetime. Also, two spaces looks awful.

I've never been a big fan of the semicolon.

Comma Comma Comma Comma Com-ma Chameleon....you come and go, you come and goooooo".

And I've always used the Oxford comma. I guess I'm old school like that.

Two spaces after a sentence are a good thing. They help the writer recognize that a thought was finished, and a new one is about to begin. It's not about printing and kerning and stuff. It's a psychological tool to help people recognize that an ending just took place. We need two spaces for our mental well being.

I thought you were better. I am disappoint.

It's hard for me to understand what you're saying since your sentences are so close together. It's like you're rambling incessantly.

I am a FIRM supporter of the 2 space method, as you can tell from almost all of my posts on this site. However, I always considered the period as the tool to recognize that an ending took place and a new thought or sentence was beginning...

I knew there was a reason I subconsciously hated you.

I don't care much about the spaces for general use. However, I am a writer. Courier is the only choice, so my habit is to use the expected two. I appreciate the auto corrects when I double space and it is not necessary, but I don't really care about ugly unless it is on a letter or something official.

Agree on the comma auto-correct.

Well this provides hope. When everyone over thirty dies, the right way will be the accepted way. Narrow is the path and few are the feet that walk upon it currently. :D

Courier is a poorly designed font for reading. There are better choices.

I tend to think of "and" as the pause in flow that denotes the end of a list.

We should just use three spaces and an ampersand.

I detest Courier, but if you're a screenplay writer (which I'm guessing underEJ is) that is the industry standard - just the way things are done.

That may be true, but it is required for submission.

Really? Very interesting. I knew there was strict formatting and all or a screenplay is never looked at but tossed in the trash. I didn't know it extended to the font. I wonder if it has to do with how the entire page is formatted too? What is "under EJ?"

And I thought we were strawberry jelly buddies now. :(

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/P_i1xk07o4g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm willing to reconsider, you'll need to amend your stance on the double space. Some things cannot be tolerated.

I guess I can try. Nope.I just can't seem to grasp it. How do you do it? I guess I will just have to practice.

Actually, we can't. As mentioned, web sites natively ignore two spaces in a row.

I naturally do two spaces all the time because that's how I learned to type, but I acknowledge that it's really not correct at all.

Ok I see now! "Under EJ" is another poster.

I would like to know the rationale for that. Is there one?

Well you should just know from my demeanor and presence that I'm a 2 space kind of guy.

Maybe actors have trouble doing a Helvetica or Garamond accent.

As a westerner, I also want two spaces because that's our culture. We're used to lots of open space out here. You easterners can cram all your words into a little space if you want, but out here we're all about big skies and wide-open sentence construction.

Ha! Ha! Well sans-serifs, like Hevetica, are even harder to read. Serifs are best for lots of reading of text. The x-height on Garamond is a bit small.

I'm just curious is all.

Must be why we read twice as fast, while you slow pokes take your time. We're the intellectuals.

I think it has two reasons. The industry is very nostalgic, and the image of screenwriter slaving over typewriter pages is not going to change anytime soon. More pragmatically, we are also beholden to producers who need to mark up a script to break it down, and performers who need to find their way to dialogue easily while rehearsing. Standardizing is the best idea, and since it has always been standardized, why change it?

underEJ was a location in arrowhead stadium in the shorthand of the kids from my neighborhood growing up. Now that the ring of honor is gone, none of us would be able to find our way around with the old code, though. That particular spot was the location where you could find Willie Lanier enjoying the game and chat with retired Chiefs.

Rain Man is a word claustrophobic

You people don't take the time to appreciate a well-placed semi-colon or elegant tilde. You've lost the ability to appreciate the natural beauty of the sentence.

I forgot one. It also sells screenwriting software.

I feel like the damn internet is oppressing my paragraph structuring preference. I'm outta here! :mad:

Well now! I think that makes perfect sense, especially the marking-up which I've seen. The extra space would allow that. Reminds me of my few few years in my industry before widespread use of computer, where the designer had to mark-up a typewritten document for the typesetter. That's what those marked-up screenplays remind me of.

Courier looks like typewriter characters. It also has that wide and higher x-height which must be easier to see when rehearsing lines. Okay, I think I get it plus all the background info. Thanks.

Interesting. I didn't know he was referring to a poster was all. Thanks for the additional info.

It's about timing. One page of properly formatted screenwriting is generally 1 minute of screen time (unless the page is action heavy with little dialogue).

Well, I think software designers look to serve different professions.

Yeah, my daughter who attends Florida State as a creative writing major and film minor, told me that. She's working for a film marketing firm up there this summer.

Or at least a semicolon. (no, I am not going to look up the semicolon rule to verify)

I admit that I overuse commas, so I'm probably the right person to put up the poll.

hah, I'll be damned, so my semicolon comment was right?

Supposedly a semicolon is used correctly when you have 2 short sentences that are hooked together that don't (but could) use the conjunctions "and" or "but". Or that is one rock solid use for a semicolon. There are some other uses but that is one I know of. You should never connect 2 sentences with a comma. Not that anyone is going to give a shit.

Yes.

We are in the "Food Lounge" of Chiefs Planet.

Well, it's a lounge. People eat, drink and snack in a lounge too. Plus, talk about it.

I never use it.

I've had a more intelligent discussion today about the use of Oxford commas and semicolons than any discussion I've had with my dipshit co-workers in the past month. Yeah...I need a new place to work.

I'm anti-Oxford comma in almost all cases.

I understand some people find the serial comma to be necessary because of confusion with sequences if you do not use it, but ambiguity can also exist from using the serial comma (as it can make the item before the conjunction look like it modifies the item preceding it in the list).

Personally, when I have the red pen of hatred (what my writers and editors used to call my editing pen) out, I prefer to avoid sequencing and commas (Oxford or otherwise) all together. I believe re-wording the sentence, is the most consistent and concise way to eliminate ambiguity.

Examples:

"To my editors, Patrick Rothfuss and Jim Butcher." (Ambiguous - are Rothfuss and Butcher my editors?)

"To my editor, Patrick Rothfuss, and Jim Butcher." (in this case, it is ambiguous because the first item in the sequence is singular, which could mean I'm dedicating the book to Patrick Rothfuss, who is my editor, or to my editor and Patrick Rothfuss, who are two separate people)

"To my editors and Patrick Rothfuss and Jim Butcher." (This is my preferred, comma-free method for handling sequences, but it doesn't work well if you're listing more than three items.)

It's my opinion that whatever benefit you gain in clarification of meaning is lost in the increased choppiness of the reading pattern. Commas cause pauses, and that often makes it harder to read.

It's funny... I'm very new age when it comes to comma and semi-colon use, but there are some old school things that still push my buttons. These include:

• Collective nouns being referred to as "they" (Team is an IT)
• Saying a team won a game "over" another team (you win "against' an opponent, not "over" an undetermined space)
• Saying your concerns are centered "on" something (for something to be centered, it must be "around" another something, not on top of it)

yep, I knew there were examples of the serial comma also leading to confusion, which is why I don't like to use that argument, though the Stalin and JFK strippers are funny.

To me, the easiest and most compelling argument is that commas denote a pause, and this is how a series is spoken. The Oxford comma or lack of one could lead to confusion in various cases, but in all cases, we all pause before the "and", and thats why I believe it should be correct. I strongly believe the AP is wrong, and almost all the other American style guides are right.

If you need a comma to suggest a pause then your prose isn't up to snuff. Your sentences ought to have a rhythm to them that will naturally overrule any possible "interruption" from an Oxford comma.

My sentences have more rhythm than Bobby ****ing Brown, so I suggest you strike that comment from the record.

Agreed.

I always found the JFK and Stalin example unconvincing, personally. Since I would never write it as:

"We invited the strippers, John F. Kennedy and Josef Stalin."

I would instead write it as:

"We invited John F. Kennedy, Josef Stalin and three strippers."

I was taught that if you're introducing items in a sequence and some have a proper name, they should always be listed first. Any nouns standing in for a group of people (in this case, strippers) should come at the end of the sequence.

it reduces confusion about the relationship of the proper nouns to the group noun.

That's pretty much what I do as well. If something is confusing, I think about structuring the sentence differently rather than comma placement.

That's not an example of a serial comma.

Yes I know. It's just an example of a comma--and confusion.

I think Elements of Style says yes. I do, but really my grammar is terrible. That's why I started writing plays instead of trying short stories. I can get away with more in dialogue.

The problem, however, is that not everyone knows when it's confusing (or cares to look). The Oxford comma saves lives.

ROFL

Not me. I eat, drink, and snack.