My parents had good insurance. I spent 3 days in the hospital wiped out my 401k savings and going to have to sell my car to get a beater. That was WITH insurance.

I would think time and energy is what should 100 more valuable at this point. If you can put more energy and time in things that you give a **** then do that instead of upgrading. Some peoples game is getting bigger and better shit, so for those people it might be worth it.

So far, everybody is better than their parents. LOL okay chiefs planet. okay.

Maybe.

But let's say you have 100K that you could either put as a down payment to get yourself to a 15 year note or you could keep the liquidity and take the 30 yr note.

The 15 yr note is going to be about a point lower in interest - so point 15 yr. However, I can take that 100K and put it in the market. Over the 15 years that I'm 'saving', I will probably quadruple that in the market, considering a relatively steady historic return. Even with the market collapsing in/around '07, if you didn't need that money, it's recovered to the point that 100K invested in 2000 would be worth about 185K today if you did nothing more than shove it all into an S&P index fund. And that's with an absolute bed-shitting in the middle. Like I said, using historic average without a mid-term collapse and you're looking at it being worth about 400K.

And remember, the interest you pay on the notes is tax deductible, so your 4% note is going to figure more like 3% after the tax advantages (with the 3% note being at about 2.25%), so the gap on the % difference closes as well.

A 30 yr note really can be a very strong, sound financial decision if you're willing to take the liquidity that you save and use it to defray the added cost.

Ultimately I just like not having to give a shit about a budget. If I want to do something right now, I get to do it. If my monthly mortgage payment triples, sure I'll have a hell of a house...and it's a good thing because I'll be spending a lot more time sitting in it instead of going on vacations, going out to eat, etc...

We just bought a new home a few months back. First house, tired of paying 1400 for rent, yada yada.

Went with a 30 year for basically what you're saying here. I pay my wife from my 2 offices to do "bookwork" and basically take that extra income and just throw it at either A. Debt or B. the market.

She does well enough herself that she shouldn't be getting paid, especially when I do the bookwork anyway but from a tax perspective I guess it makes sense, or so I was told.

In terms of the house though, we ended up going a little smaller but we love it and have extra income to do shit with. I'm not huge on the big house right now, maybe in the future I would be I guess, but give me all my other shit.

Of course a 3k per month student loan tab eats taht other shit up a little quicker than I'd like but it is what it is.

True, but there's the caveat that Saul mentioned - there still is a point sometime further down the road than where I am now where that lifestyle does increase substantially. And he's right, it does seem to take about double of where you are once you reach a certain point. There is a brass ring, it's just not easy to track down.

If I decide that energy is 100 times important than money, then I'll dial back job responsibilities, etc... and ensure that I'll never hit that 'life changing' financial threshhold.

Or, I could keep my foot on the accelerator for another 3-5 years, figure that things will keep trending as they are and suddenly I've hit that 'doubling' point that allows the next level lifestyle choices I'd like to make.

Then again, I think that's just a question common to pretty much everyone in their 30s and has been for time immemorial. Just exactly how hard are you willing to push to make your 40s that much cushier? Rarely do you hit your professional peak in your 30s but damn if it doesn't feel like you've spent a long time pushing yourself. It's hard to keep your eyes on the prize, so to speak. For me, I've chosen to bear down, fight through the professional doldrums and see if I can't run down my folks, get my 3rd car garage with a shop and some land overlooking a golf course or a lake and then coast a bit through my 40s when the next batch of people like me are willing to do some of my work for me.

I certainly understand the opposite perspective though and there are months at a time where I think it's probably the way to go.

I would say better. Dad was a farmer from day one. Mom was the best hired man dad could have. (his words)
There were years they worked at a loss. I don't see how the hell we made it. As we clean out the house, I am going to find their 1040's and find out. The late 70's and early 80's were terrible. Mom and Dad always paid the bills and never over extended themselves. Buy what you need, not what they wanted. Lesson learned. I wish more people would do that today.

Even as a teacher, my wife and I do well. She is kicking my ass right now. That helps.
I have been able to do things my parents NEVER would have been able to do. And I appreciate it every day. I am thankful for what I have and do not take it for granted.

The amazing thing, because of the last few years of farming, my parents secured my retirement and the fact that my kids can go to college. I cry every time I think of it. Never thought it would happen that way.

yeah it sounds like hustling and grinding your way to a new level might flip your trigger in that case I would go for it. It is the people who only think thats the way they are actually get the shit and are let down because it doesn't make them happy. People have to know what it is that drives them. If you a relaxed person make enough money to chill out, if you are a hustler and grinder who levels up do that, if you want a balance do that, but just find out what it is and don't stray away from it. Also the skills and the leveling up is what really flips peoples triggers. Getting bigger and bigger things until you decide it is time to cut back then you get cancer and die, but you spent most of your life happy and productive.

Way, way worse... Student loans and an inability to really use my degree in a job that pays better than a factory job, has just destroyed me. I've made some bad decisions financially, but mostly I have had some awful, awful luck. Every time it appears that I am going to catch a financial break, something crazy and unexpected comes from nowhere and just takes the wind out of my sails.

On the other hand, I will be inheriting a pretty large sum of money when my parents pass away. However, the last thing in the world that I want to experience is any of my loved ones dying...so lose-lose.

Going to college was my personal worst financial decision. Hands down.

Why is that surprising?

You about 25?

Because it seems to me that around 2005ish is when college started turning into a losing proposition for a lot of people yet High School administrators and college recruiters continue to push the 4 year degree route as though it's the only acceptable path to meaningful adult status.

Seems like people that have entered college over the last decade are so are getting vastly diminished returns even over what I got when I went in 2000.

but you're really not taking it into account that you're a huge ****ing queer so people have to give you better jobs

That's good, old-fashioned advice, and probably for the best for alot of people, but given interest rates now (and for the last whatever, 7 years) you can easily justify having a 30 year fixed rate loan and just keeping it.

It may well be a negative real interest rate if/when inflation goes back to semi-normal levels.

That's an interesting way to spell Cardinals fan.

We all run 4.2 40's and have 10in dicks. We are an amazing group.

I disagree. A college degree is still the best single thing that will in the long term, improve your quality of life. It's not a guarantee and its not the same as you say pre-2000. But education is why I'm not poor like my Dad and Mom's families.

When my son came to us and says he wants to be an astrophysicist, I say I'll figure out a way to pay for the freight. He will never be rich in that field and the money you pay for that type of degree might not be a good return on investment but that's what you do as parents, one of your main jobs, encourage and help your kids achieve their dreams.

Simple question -- is it worth it to graduate with a degree in, say, political science or english, and $200,000 in debt?

For some, sure. If they can take that and go to Harvard Law, then YES. But otherwise, for the vast majority getting soft liberal arts degrees from nothing-special colleges, there's a real question of whether that is worthwhile.


Astrophysicist? Yeah, he can probably make a few bucks if he gets that degree.

How about anthropology? Sociology? Philosophy? History?

WTF are you going to do with that degree? How do you convert it into bank, so you can pay off you near quarter million dollar, non-dischargeable in bankruptcy, loan?


Any degree that is likely to get you a job with an annual salary of $30,000 probably isn't worth getting unless your parents are paying the freight, or you get scholarships. Then the question is whether your parents are in their right minds, but that's on them.

I have a Bachelor's in non-law track Poli Sci. I can tell you it isn't worth it. Thank God I paid off my schooling as I went or my life would be a shit ton harder. I have to deal with the fact that I'm unable to find a "grown up job", but at least I'm not saddled with $40,000+ in debt like some people I know.

I'd recommend only going to college for some type of technical degree in which you'll learn a skill. Engineering, nursing, etc. If you go for art history, poli sci, etc. then you're going to have a hard time.

Well, that $ bar wasn't set very high for me. When I graduated College in 1989, my Dad had been retired for 3 years. He made $27,500 his last year working a job he had been at for 39 years. Two years into my job, in 1991, I was making $35,000/yr and a Company Car/401K/Bonus/Etc. Not comparable at all.

Hyperbole much? $200K in debt? Sure, there are examples, but this should absolutely not be the norm, and it's easily avoided.

College isn't the right path for some, but the one-to-one relationship between degree and job that you seem to suggest above is pretty narrow thinking.

To answer the OP, I'm actually not sure. In ways I'm "better off", but in others I'm not.

My parents were still married at my age so they had a household with two incomes. With that, they also had two children and were both in the military.

Both of my parents were horrible with money so I'm sure I'm doing better than them. Actually, now that I think about it, I believe they filed bankruptcy while they were married so I'm sure I'm in a better position than they were at 25.

For many, perhaps most, you're right. A 4 year degree is probably the way to go. But like I said, it's not the only way to go and I feel like the educational system stigmatizes anyone that doesn't choose to go that route.

And remember, I just said there are diminishing returns - not no returns.

It's just so hard to wealth-build at all in your 20s if you're lugging around 50K plus in student loan debt and you're dealing with a non-specialized degree that gives you an entry level position of around $30-40K. You can't really even think about home ownership at that point so you're not building equity. Your interest rates are generally in the 5-8% range on student loan debt so it's either a higher monthly payment or a pretty long term. It's just a nasty thing to have hanging around your neck and makes even the march to middle class substantially more difficult.

I'm not saying that college shouldn't be encouraged. I am saying, however, that for many people it shouldn't be the only consideration and to my eyes, that's the only route that guidance counselors and other secondary ed employees will push you towards. And heaven help you if you're a parent that encourages a child that doesn't choose that path.

For your son, Astrophysics may be the proper dream. For others, it could be wanting to open your own shop or even work outdoors. It may be photography. It may be any number of things that your degree doesn't do anything to get you in the door for but perhaps a low-wage apprenticeship would. Those kids are going to be steered away from that and end up in a sort of indentured servitude whereby they have to put in 10 years at a desk in the first job they could get because suddenly the balances were coming due on those subsidized, deferred loans they took out to get through a 4 year program they didn't really want to go into at all.

Opposite for me..bar was set pretty high...OTOH, I've been self employed now for twenty years, and the perks that come with that are pretty sweet, but nowhere near what she accomplished.

When I look back now, it's impressive the drive she had, raising a son by herself in the 60's.

Love my mom and the example of work ethic she put forth, but she's even a better person.

200K seems high, but man, 100K is easy these days. Even simple state schools like Mizzou have an average cost of attendance in excess of $25K/yr now. It was around 12-13K/year when I was looking at schools. The cost of a 4-year degree essentially doubling over the last 10-15 years surely changes the calculus pretty substantially.

I just think the 'pay whatever it costs' mentality has become so prevalent that it's led to schools essentially charging whatever they want knowing that the government will subsidize the tab and stick students with the bill. For many, paying whatever it costs is just a bad financial decision and that number is growing annually, IMO.

If I didn't go on to grad school, I have no idea what the hell I'd have done with my poli-sci degree from a liberal arts school.

Sure, I can write like a champ (or could) because I had 30-40 page papers due seemingly every other week. From that standpoint, practice gave me a pretty high-end ability to articulate thoughts/ideas in writing. I would guess at some point that would have paid off pretty well but it would have just been in some random-ass field.

I'm guessing I'd have gone and worked for State Farm or some other large volume corporate business where the stability of the organization appealed to me. I'd have then gone through the age-old story of trying to get noticed and climb my way up the ranks.

The standard college path contributes strongly to an 'ants-marching' mindset, IMO.

College is well worth it if you are smart and go into good fields like accounting, engineering, computer science, etc.

Go to community college the first 2 years. It's cheap, the first 2 years are worthless and you can raise your grades even more and earn more scholarships to finish your degree in 2 years at a bigger school.

Why would you pay the money to go to a big school the first 2 years when your basic classes are utterly worthless?

Mike Rowe has been promoting learning trades as a viable option from school.

I'd say no way but if thats what you want go to a school that it doesn't put you in a $200K debt, then its okay.
He's not interested in getting rich as the end game. He wants to discover the undiscovered of both the physical world and of the mind. You need the education on whats out there, come before you, before building and proving your own hypothesis.

From a pure financial perspective its not a moneymaker. But, if you can go out into the real world with the education and without debt. Then its not a financial decision.

My dad makes a ton of money now, but even when he was my age he was in tree and shrub sales making 120K a year. He makes at least double that now. I guess Im close to what he made when he was my age, but I doubt I will ever make as much when Im his age.

I just think most of Chiefs planet likes to think they are better than their parents, because almost the entire poll is dlanted that way. I dont think ppl are taking into account inflation either, 100k now isnt like 100k in 1985.

Not many actually pay sticker price, though. I'm hoping to get some kind help because I've received invitations to apply to schools like Cornell, but there's not a ****ing chance I'm paying $61k tuition + room and board.

Lol. I'll see all yalls 200k in student loans and raise you 100k.

That's the damned truth. 100k family income is pretty lower middle class right now, imo. Shit is expensive. At one time, that would have been upper middle class. That being said, people can make 100k, live frugally, and do just fine. But you're not going to be able to splurge on 100k like I think you once could.

Hell, maybe my view is distorted, though. My parents were wealthy and never talked about money. We lived on a lot of land and took some pretty cool trips growing up, but they never made us feel rich by any means. That's mainly because they lived well within their means and put a lot more back than they spent.

We, on the other hand, live at the top of our means. We don't have a huge house or anything of that nature, but we take the trips we want to take and give our kids the advantages we feel they should have (music, art, sports, etc...). We definitely stress about finances, though. I never remember my parents saying a word about financial stress.

You sound bitter and poor. Ask most parents their main goal, "to give my kids more than I had." Teach success to breed success.

Recent example for student loan debt here for those interested. 60k in debt for 2 year masters at out of state college, graduated in 2012. No debt for bachelors with parents help and worked part time through school. Graduating in exactly 4 years for bachelors helped too. I am down to around 30k owed on the loan. Pay about $500 a month to the loan which isn't a problem financially for us to swing.

Yep. It cost me less than 3 grand to go to school for HVAC for a year and it paid immediate dividends for me. Best money I ever spent, only regret is that I didn't do it 10 years earlier.

I didn't have any from undergrad, between academics and golf and mom and dad.

I had 301k after 4 years of dental school at 6.7% but am paying about 4200 per month, sometimes more to try and get out from under that shit.

My first thought was WTF?!? but I'm single with no kids, so... weeeeeeee!

:D

Holy shit! :eek:

It sucks, that's for sure

Good lord, I'm 31 and I've had less than $2000 for the last 3 or 4 years. I pay $50 a month, and my interest is like 2.25%. Only reason I haven't paid it off is because the interest rate is soo low, and it's like the rate of inflation. I don't even see how they are making money off of me. Instead I just threw everything at my house and paid it off last year.

My GF is on the same boat as you though, she went to a private school, and unfortunately her parents were too dumb to tell her to look for grants and aid. She has 200k and she ONLY has a bachelors. If you look for it, and even just ask the admissions office, you can get TONS of grants and aid if you go to private schools, and once it's said and done usually you can get the cost down to just at or below what a state school is. Well, she didn't do that and she has/had 200k of debt too, and she hasn't paid it down too much either.

HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT!?!?!

Median household income in the U.S. is under $55,000.

According to this, middle class is any household earning between 67% and 200% of the state's median income. In Arkansas, it's $27,000 to $81,000. In Missouri, it's $47,000 to $94,000. In Kansas, it's $51,000 to $102,000.

http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-s...ate-1695393156

I did a little blog for my company on the payback of higher education last year, for associate, bachelor, and master's degrees. If I remember right, the average payback period for a college degree is six years in terms of salary. I assumes various years of lost income pursuing the degree, and then analyzed the average income differential once you get the degree. For all three types of degrees, the payback period was about six years. i thought that was interesting.

But your point also reminded me of the cost. That payback period was for a public school and in-state tuition, and I think I included room and board. For all the talk about massive student debt, I was shocked at how inexpensive college costs are if you're doing an in-state public school. There's no need to go $200,000 in debt for a college degree if you think the quality of public universities is adequate.

People like to include meals, rent, and pretty much every other expense when talking about the price of college. It's as if they think they wouldn't have to eat nor pay rent if they weren't taking classes for some reason.

Okay. So I'm rich, bitch!

Yeah, I never gave a shit that we didn't have much money. My Parents were just amazing people. Without them and their willingness to spend the time to raise me right, I'd be nothing today. It's a debt I can never repay.

In retrospect, I wish I had spent my time, money and effort on something different. It's my one, true regret thus far in life.

Congrats to you for having the balls to make it happen no matter how late.

Bright side is, if he's paying that much then he's bringing home a ****ing shit ton. Imagine when he gets out from under that debt. Straight cash, homie!

Ya, we lived with my g-ma (God bless)until she could afford our first apt.....lots of clothes on layaway, but never went without.

We're great friends now. She's my biggest fan.

Conversations about the utility of a college degree ultimately seem to circle back to the 80-20 rule. The degree, on its own, is simply a start. Nothing more. If individuals believe it's a golden ticket to a career, they are wrong, generally speaking.

However, a college degree is a good entry point, and the statistics relative to career earning potential confirm this.

At the end of the day, though, that new ****ing Kia you bought, the fully loaded model, is still a great investment. Outstanding. I would never hesitate to pull that ****ing trigger because that's about the equivalent of the average student loan debt. Luckily, they appreciate about the same.

But people like to blame the system, the college, the degree. It's never the individual and the lack of marketability in an increasingly difficult job market. Again, the degree, any degree, is an important start, but it's not the end when it comes to educating yourself and getting on the job market and being successful.

Translation: The lifestyle you want to lead is expensive.

That's the plan .....

Well that all depends on the lifestyle you choose to live at that point. If he decides once the debt is gone to take on a $500k mortgage, then the amount of money you make doesn't really take away your financial stress. This seems to be the common in this country sadly.

Absolutely true. I'm just assuming he's "smart".

About this time last year my dad secured a job making almost double what he was making at his previous job. So what did he do? Go out and buy himself a luxury car and a new Jeep for his fiancé, naturally.

I think my generation, millenniums, tend to over-estimate how good our financial situation happens to be. Most look at income brought home and solely that compared to others or their parents. However, this generation has very few homeowners compared to our parents at this age, has higher living expenses (by choice at times) and has virtually no savings for retirement or even a clue on how to prepare for the future. I know plenty of people who are offered 401k's at work and either have no clue what they are investing in them or some of them decide not to even have one. So while many feel good about things, their grasp on a full financial picture is very poorly defined.

I agree. I carry debt I shouldn't but I want things and don't want to wait.

I don't think I will ever find fault with people who aren't into saving money and long term financial stuff. Tomorrow never comes for lots of people anyway.

I feel you; you've got to live. The problem is, tomorrow does come for the vast majority of people.

Like most anything else, I think there's a happy medium.

I absolutely agree.

As I've mentioned here before, we lost a considerable amount of money due to the crash of 2008 and by 2013, we weren't even back to 65% of our original savings. Had I kept all of that money in low yield CD's and savings accounts, I'd still have it to this day.

Instead, it was lost to me but Wall Street, brokers and corporations earned it back tenfold.

One thing I know about my brain is I just like to save or do some financial education because it helps give me hope and entertainment now. I know there are no promises later that it will get better, it just helps me live day in and day out with hope for a brighter future. The people who are better with their brains don't have to do all this shit to feel good about where they are going. They are just living man

See, I am kind of in the same situation. Money isn't everything to me, I like what I do and I am not interested in chasing money doing something I don't like. My wife makes pretty good money, and she could make more if she wanted to get her nurse practitioners or further, but we are happy where we are.

That is almost over 3 times my mortgage, wow.

A lot of good points in here, I see a lot of my friends fall into your exact description. Very few of my friends are homeowners, and very few have any retirement accounts started.

Very good take on the state of wealth. I talk with a lot of younger people who don't comprehend Wealth. I see and hear it all the time families making a 6 figure income and live paycheck to paycheck and not doing anything to enhance their Net Worth.

I admit when I was in my early 20's I spent everything I made. I read 2 books that changed my Paradigm about money. (The Richest Man in Babylon and The Millionaire Next Door) I have spent the past couple of decades applying those principles. I have accumulated considerably more Wealth than a lot of my peers. I do not have a college degree I have worked hard and worked at living within my means.

That's a huge part of it, for sure. I've spent the last year or so trying to steer my family (i.e. my wife) into a pretty strict budget. I think we've settled into it in recent months. It's kind of amazing how quickly savings can add up when you only buy what you need and live within your means.

Good for you! Keep it up and you'll be amazed at the results. A written budget is the first step. I occasionally hear Dave Ramsey on the radio and think he is doing a pretty good job of changing peoples attitudes toward money.

I learned the best thing ever from watching my dad. He just had a way of being both very frugal and very satisfied with life at the same time. He was very good at knowing what was a good expense in terms of long term satisfaction, and he was willing to pay for the right things, but he didn't want to spend on a million little things with very little satisfaction. He drove a beautiful old Cadillac for years until it got stolen. He'd gotten it from an aunt who was not going to be driving anymore, both frugal and satisfying. He'd bought his house in Brookside from an uncle at a very family friendly price. He and my mom loved touring open houses and thinking about dream houses, but they really didn't need it, so they never pulled the trigger on any of them.

He did however spend the money to send my sister and I to private school, and as much as I hated it sometimes, there is no doubt it was an excellent investment. He also bought a computer way back in the day (1979) for around 3000, a huge expense that he mentioned could have bought us another car, but again, as an educational investment, paid off huge for both him and for his kids.

I don't think he carried debt around, except maybe during the early seventies, and I have no idea how much he earned, but we never wanted for the needs, and we grew up not needing much of the wants. I try to live the same way. I think at my age, he sold his firm to Burns and McDonnell, and then did quite well after that even if it had been a bit lean leading up to that. I am likely more stable at the same age, but I probably will opt to work less as I get older and not increase my earnings over time, so he probably wins in the long run.

This is sort of a parent appreciation thread too, so thanks to my dad for being a great example!

This is a great post.

I have never asked my dad what his financial situation was like at my current age, but I am going to guess not spectacular like many sophomores in college.
So I will answer with "equal to".

We are heading toward a decentralized future where a car transportation service owns no cars, an accommodations company owns no property and a social network company provides no content. We will be our own banks, our own stock brokers, our own real estate agents, our own loan officers and our own venture capitalists. Technology will allow for this and I think its coming sooner than most believe. This video sums up how regulatory bodies and governments will attempt to stop these liberating technologies!

Yes and no. I've saved more, have a better house and have it way younger than my parents did. My dad had a job with the govt and a nice retirement plan though. He started his govt job around my age. He also had been a farmer as a young man and was renting it out so he had retirement money coming in that way too. So I'd say he wins on more of a guaranteed retirement plan. Mine is more dependent on how the market does but I'm far enough from retirement that I've got plenty of time to be aggressive and make other moves, which I've been considering.

To add, my parents both had pensions which are a thing of the past for many of us young workers starting careers. They also had quite a bit of investments but at least with pensions you know that amount will always be there. My retirement will be based solely off investments and money made that way. Not as safe as the pension route with far less security and stability from the older generation and retirement plans.

My dad never made it this far, so who really knows.

My dad had a long career with IBM. He retired from there with a pension in his mid-50s (about my age) but continued to work at various jobs into his mid-70s. I have passed his inflation-adjusted salary during his peak earning years and will continue to earn a high salary until I retire in a dozen years or so. He did better than me when we were younger, but I think I've passed him in recent years. Through our 50s and 60s I'll make considerably more and work in a better job. I plan to be fully retired before I hit 70, and he still worked part time through most of those years.

401K?

This just depressed the shit out of me. I just want to do something to help you.

How you did it is nothing short of amazing. People really don't understand what you accomplished from this very website.

Sales/Marketing? I'm in the same boat. I just live in a shittier part of the world than you do. Lol

Don't take this the wrong way because I like you, but weren't you bitching about having to let people go over Obama care? I mean 50k would hire someone right? I'm confused. If I have you confused with someone else my apologies, and I'm really not here to judge, it's your firm, just trying to understand what changed.

As Bearcat said regarding his parents, you and Jilly work for reward not profit. You're richer than I, I'd guarantee it.

EXACTLY what I was thinking. Even anonymously, mother****ers lie...

ROFL the ****?

My 30 year old millionaire boss and I just had that conversation a week ago. And we came up with pretty much, exactly this.