I would tell you to eat a fat one, but you seem wrapped up in needless bullshit already. Go CHIEFS

I don't want Foles to start because I don't want the Chiefs to treat him like the qbotf where we refuse to draft a qb. No matter what, the Chiefs need to draft a qb hopefully in the first round, because they need a groomed and ready qb as soon as Alex is done.

But in fairness, to your point... What's hilarious about Alex lovers getting all huffy and puffy about Foles being terrible. Does anyone not remember Alex's first years in the league? He had 1 td to 11 ints his rookie year. Oh, the excuse is that hes has multiple offensive coordinators and couldn't get settled? So has Foles. That's not an excuse for Foles by the way. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.

Back to the topic, I want Foles to win so we stay in the playoff hunt. I want him to be successful taking some shots in the intermediate and deep game so Alex can see what good things happen when you allow your receivers to make plays. And I want Alex to feel a little pressure about keeping his job. There is no qb controversy. Alex will start when ready, so I just hope this is a big opportunity to finally coach Alex to open up his game.

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree. I don't know what Foles is with his mixed results. However comparing winning percentages is a little unfair and I think you know it. Foles played a year on a meltdown eagles team and the freaking rams vs the balanced teams Alex has been on.

My concern with Smith is that we need to play such a near perfect team game to beat very good teams in the playoffs. Hard to do when you will have to do it multiple times to win it all, and more importantly, Andy Reid leaves stuff out on the field each week with his inconsistent game management.

I'm not sure Foles is the answer. I'm also not sure that Smith is the right answer to go into NE or beat PIT in the playoffs.

If I recall, you have always been rather reasonable and fair.

So can you please tell me why it is that everyone who talks about the playoffs... and what we can do in them.. ALWAYS omit the part where our best players are either badly hobbled or not playing whatsoever.

I won't rehash the recent KC years of playoff injuries.. who was missing... and the relatively close game results. We all know them well enough.

When I see people type things much like this bolded segment above.. this thought always goes through my mind.

Well, what if the Maclins and Houstons and Halis.. and etc were actually healthy and had played this game? Must be some reason we are paying theses guys crazy big money. Maybe it's because.. they are important to the KC success formula?

It's a fair question. In his chiefs playoff history he had a virtually flawless performance against Indy and did well in Houston where he was asked to be more of a game manager. So far, the majority of playoff history has been terrific. Hes earned some benefit of the doubt.

But the new England game was Alex trying to play his game against a team you can't play small ball with. And it bit them in the second half. In his defense, without Maclin, our receiver corps wasnt good. But when new England started rolling and even in a must score situation, there is simply no excuse for small ball no matter who your receivers are. So not having receivers isn't an excuse for not at least swinging in the end. I'd rather get picked off late trying than the very questionable strategy we took in the end where it looked like we weren't even trying to get a td.

I would love to have seen last years KC @ NE game with everyone healthy. I am optimistic about this team, even with Smith. But if he happened to be out for this game and the CAR game, and Foles got the offense going, it's something to consider.

I don't put last year's loss in NE on Smith, but he certainly was a factor in us not winning. Between him and Andy's conservative "let's not lose" gameplan, we went in there like scared children. Not having a healthy Maclin or Houston made a big difference, especially on defense. I don't know if it is more a Smith issue or Andy issue, but expecting to win in the Divisional Round and the AFCCG, plus the SB, with that attitude and play from the QB is asking a lot of everyone else. And that's even with Houston and Maclin healthy.

What happens if we aren't 100% healthy again? Do we just say, "oh well what can Smith and KC do" and go home? It's not crazy to expect more from a QB and coach than we got in that NE game, no matter who was injured.

If Smith doesn't get us to the Superbowl THIS year with a team this loaded. Then we for damn sure need to re evaluate his contract a d future here.

Smith has to produce at a high level in January and February. No more excuses. It's past time for him to deliver.

Dude, I seriously was going to post something about this very thing when I got home from work (I just got off 15 minutes ago). I have little notes jotted down on a "HOLD" card.

When it comes to their first 4 seasons that they played in (Alex was injured all year his 3rd or 4th season), Foles has Smith beaten by a landslide...and some of the Alex-lovers give him absolutely no credit for that. And the common Alexcuse for his terrible start is the large amount of Offensive Coordinators he had in those years...well, Foles is in his 5th season and has already had 5 Offensive Coordinators. Foles's infamous season where he went off (2013, 27 TD's, 2 INT's in like, 12 games) wasn't just a good season...it was historically good...with a historical game where he threw 7 TD's in one game. I watched that game...I watched a lot of his rookie and 2013 seasons and he looked really good in those seasons. I don't know what happened at St. Louis, but I do know when he played for the Eagles, he had moments where he absolutely looked the part of a potentially elite QB. Hell, he looked great when he played in college. I watched the Iowa vs. Arizona game in 2010 and he out-dueled the shit out of Ricky Stanzi...that's why I watched what he did in the NFL. And I always hear the Alexcuse that Alex had the injury early in his career where he was put on injured reserve...Well, Foles has been on injured reserve as well...broke his hand as a rookie.

Foles's first 4 seasons in the NFL:

2012: 6 TD's, 5 INT's
2013: 27 TD's, 2 INT's
2014: 13 TD', 10 INT's
2015: 7 TD's, 10 INT's

Total: 53 TD's, 27 INT's.

* Plus 5 rushing TD's.

Alex's first 4 seasons in the NFL:

2005: 1 TD, 11 INT's
2006: 16 TD's, 16 INT's
2007: 2 TD's, 4 INT's
2008: Did not play...
2009: 18 TD's, 12 INT's

Total: 37 TD's, 43 INT's

* Plus 2 rushing TD's.



The potential for Foles to do well is freaking there...and Alexuals need to keep Alex's first 4 seasons in mind when they are critiquing Foles so harshly. He could very well pick up steam and start rolling again.


I would rather us draft a QB, but I will say this.... I have a better feeling about our past experiences with Ramtread QB's than I do 49er retread QB's.

Your version of posters who are reasonable and fair simply depends on whether they are Alex Smith fans, or not.

What he said bitches. Dead on target.

This has to go hand in hand with the defense covering receivers, Sutton not going brain dead, turnovers, and Andy at times stupid play calling.....

What happened to Dr Peeper

Apparently, those are just "excuses" to many. Really would be interesting to see if the next Chiefs QB gets these excuses, or if people remain consistent.

We will get a glimpse of this today, no doubt.



As to the Chiefs' winning formula, Alex does his part. The failure thus far is when other key parts of the winning formula are missing due to injury. That is when the winning formula fails.

Yet, people expect the QB to pick up the slack for these missing components. Is that fair? maybe.

If we are to call this fair, maybe we should take a look at other QBs... better regarded QBs.. when they are lacking key components to their team's winning formula.

How bout we swing for the fences, and go right after Aaron Rodgers?

AR won the SB back in 2010 on a stacked GB team.. why has he not gone back to a SB since? He's elite, right? why could he not overcome any deficiencies that they endured since?

The popular answer seems to go something like this.. "uh well, he won one already, so he gets all the slack he wants!"

Yes, as said.. he did win it back then.. on a stacked team. What happened that made him unable to win again on a team that started showing cracks in the perfection?

If anyone "feels like playing this honest game" for perspective, throw other QB names out there, and defend why they couldn't get past their multitude of team injuries and problems.

This. We have a small sample, but it was so nice to see a QB that actually stayed in the pocket and let the play develop. It was even sweeter to see one that led the receivers. It could all be over today, but I sure hope not.

Pole flail.
Needs timeframe.

The fact that Aaron Rodgers hasn't won a Super Bowl since 2010 is not justification for settling for mediocrity or below.

Wonder how that 2010 team would have done without Rodgers that year....???? I wonder how they would have done with Alex Smith... Probably not good because in the words of the great Mike Singletary:

https://media.makeameme.org/created/...ave-fe9nhw.jpg

You managed to contribute nothing useful to address anything in my post. Well done. Deflection, deliberately obtuse, or just cornered rat.

It comes off as if you are downplaying the importance of the QB position to justify settling for mediocrity or below at that position. Maybe not what you intended, but it comes off that way to an extent.

After rewatching the Nick Foles highlights on KC Chiefs .com I have to say Foles has that touch on the ball that just makes it easy for the receiver to catch the ball. As much as I like Alex. he just doesn't have that touch. I hope Reid does whats best for the Chiefs. We'll know more after the Jags game.

I think it's always a good thing to have an effective b/u QB.

On top of that he's still young so there's room for improvement. If we (ever) draft a QB high I think he'd be fine as a place holder for a year or two...

Alex Smith can do everything this offense needs him to do at a high level. Reid already said this. What more do you want?

You want a QB like Brees, Brady, Luck, Rodgers etc so we can score 50 pts a game because fans like to see offense... Okay. I get that. Fine, but be prepared to pay the price. Those guys cost money and our defense will lose talent and suffer because of it.

Personally I'd rather have an elite D than an elite QB... Defense wins championships.

As far as people saying Foles looked so much better than Alex in the Colts gm. Not buying that he is better because of one game. Might want to check out some highlights from Foles years with the Rams. He was god awful.

Pretty bad in his years with the Eagles as well. He had one good fluke year, big deal. Cassel threw 27 TDs 7 INTs one year as well.

Reid also said Alex did not have a concussion and is his starting QB.

But isn't starting this week and isn't going to be active...

:spock:

No, I do not. I also don't think Alex is the man.

What in the world is Reid supposed to say??? Would you ever, regardless of circumstances, expect him to say anything different????

I've watched a lot of Foles with the Eagles. Nothing can convince me that his good stretch was flukey.

I didn't see much of him in St. Louis, but I don't think he was at a place that was by any means, right for him....a lot of "good" QB's would struggle there.

I'm sure we can find plenty of examples of QBs over the last 10 SB's stepping up, maybe even playing above their average play, to win. In the years where Flacco and Eli won, they had a lot of help. Even a lot of luck. But they also made plays in huge moments that maybe they don't always make. Nobody is asking Alex to drag the Cleveland Browns to the SB or to do it all himself. He has plenty around him, and even if they get injured, it's what he is going to have to do.

I'm not saying I expect Alex to do it all. But the NE game shouldn't be brushed aside as "well we didn't have Maclin or Houston". Smith needs to step up and pick up a little of the slack in that game, along with others. Do you think he did that? Do you think he can do that? Those are fair questions.

Another fair question, do you think KC would be healthy if they went in to NE this year? With how the year has gone, what are the odds that our Oline is intact? Our backfield? Our secondary? Injuries are going to happen. If this team wants to win or at least get to a SB, it will need to overcome injuries against a very good team at some point. Can't keep saying "well we might have won that playoff game if we didn't have injuries". A QB is as important as any other in overcoming them.

The crux of my point is this. IMO Smith will need to step up and make some big plays he typically doesn't if they are going to win in NE, or an AFCCG, or a SB. Odds are we are not going to be fully healthy in the playoffs. Whether it is fair or not really isn't the question. I think he is going to have to. So the question is, can he?

Foles had no weapons there.

One can only wonder if this thread would have been more appropriate after the game.

With 4 years of tape to study everyone knows Alex will play safe and throw short until he's forced to go deep.

It's not hard to figure out when he'd be forced to throw deep and when you don't go deep that often you aren't as good at it...

Nick Foles is a turnover machine if the line stars breaking down on him. I'd feel safer with Alex at the helm towards the end of season and playoffs.

I'd prefer a sample size greater than 30 passes to judge if a b/u is better than a 4 year starter.

Just me...

Good post. I'm not sold on Nick foles. Too slow to make reads, has kind of that sidearm sling that isn't always the most accurate. But you're right, he has potential. I just hope the Chiefs view it as potential and not the answer. We've been through that before, settling for middling retreads.

But I hope your detailed post exposes the hypocrisy of many Alex lovers to criticize Foles' early struggles while ignoring or making excuses for Alex's struggles.

Sacks and turnovers. More so, if he is sitting in the pocket taking sacks looking for the big play, will it cancel out or net a positive outcome. Smith isn't running this year which is hurting the offense. But he still moves around, which both helps extend some plays and also causes him to leave perfectly good pockets. I think this is as interesting a difference to watch as is the deep ball difference today.

I agree with you. He isn't as bad as he showed with the Rams but he still isn't as good as people here are making him out to be.

To be fair to the Rams great QBs make the players around them better. I think we can all agree on that. I don't think Foles did much of that when he was there.

Foles is a great backup. But IMO he is decent starter at best, at worst probably a pretty bad starting QB.

It almost depends on who we play. Foles seems to have the bigger potential to put up larger numbers, but his play may make him prone to more turnovers. I tend to think that having a guy like Alex that doesn't turn the ball over much is better against a team like Denver that seems to get a defensive score in every game they win.

Remove Foles' 27 TD season because that was all a gimmick that Chip Kelly had going on with no defense having figured out until the next season. Just like the year Roman and Harbaugh unleashed Kaepernick, nobody had film to breakdown.

Foles is a flash in the pan. Smith actually has the second half of his career of proven, stable, quarterback play. He's a winner, don't fix what isn't broken.

Since we dumped Dwayne Bowe's ass...

Smith is 30 TD's to 1 INT inside the red zone.

.. and just to be clear, let it be noted that I have not dumped on Foles at all thus far.

I contend that the early years of Smith's career are loaded with valid reasons/contributions ("excuses") for his poor development and play.. in those first handful of years.

I am open to contending the same for Foles' early years of ugly results. I have to phrase it this way, because I have not watched enough of Foles' years as a pro to really commit to any conclusions of him.

That seems consistent and fair.


Now, on to the hypocrisy that HAS been or likely WILL be exposed :

Others have dismissed the valid reasons/contributions for Smith.. repeatedly.

Soon, we can really see if they do the same for Foles... or if they suddenly change these set rules for the QB because his name is not Smith.

That would then be inconsistent, unfair, and hypocritical.

http://www.shooter-szene.de/content/...47-450x239.jpg

[QUOTE=TigerUppercut;12530924]Remove Foles' 27 TD season because that was all a gimmick that Chip Kelly had going on with no defense having figured out until the next season. Just like the year Roman and Harbaugh unleashed Kaepernick, nobody had film to breakdown.

Foles is a flash in the pan. Smith actually has the second half of his career of proven, stable, quarterback play. He's a winner, don't fix what isn't broken.

Yeah, to be honest....I thought about that bolded part. It happened, though...that season happened and it can't be taken away from him, regardless of whether or not there is merit to the point people make that what Chip did that year was gimmicky to the point where it came off as unorthodox to opposing teams.

KC TD% in Redzone with Reid.

2013:5th 60%
2014:9th 58%
2015:12th 57%
2016: 20th 50%

As the talent has gone up, the success rate has gone done. Ironically, KC's best redzone year was with Bowe. This will be one of the major factors in deciding how we do in the playoffs IMHO. Can't walk away with FG's. And I am probably ripping on Reid here a lot more than I am Smith. Actually, I definitely am.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/sta...ate=2016-11-06

FYP

It's interesting to me when people do this. It is essentially an admission that you don't have anything of substance to counter my post.. so you hope that insults and glibness can deflect away from this.

This must be where I am supposed to say "tapout accepted", I suppose. :rolleyes:

Yea, the sideways pass plays just don't cut it.

Here is where I am at.

I am not a huge Smith fan at all, but he has earned the right to be the starter. That being said, there were some stats posted a few weeks ago that stated Smith was something like 24-3 in games where his QB rating was over 52 (on the 0-100 scale) and 0-12 when he is under 52.

If Foles backs up last weeks performance with a solid showing today, I think Foles needs to be a go to option if Smith is struggling during any given game. Bills used to do it years ago with Frank Reich. No reason Chiefs couldn't do it too.

It's not a mystery. Happened in the 90s with Grbac and Gannon, although I was too young to chronicle. Happened early on with Green. Hell, happened with Huard. It will always happen. For a Chiefs fan, this isn't a mystery and needs no solving. Foles will get a lot of leeway early, but it will change over time to exactly what Smith gets. Exactly what the rest got. Hard to blame some for losing perspective, having been Chiefs fans for their entire life.

Boom!

Nailed it...













TEH 0DD T0DD FOREVER!:cuss:

I think if we can improve back to being in the top third we should be fine. The numbers are probably a little off this year with our strength of schedule for us being front loaded in terms of difficulty. Of our next 9 games only 3 I would say (vs Denver,@ Denver, San Diego) concern me.

This is where you lose me sometimes. Every time I find myself being ok with you, you take yourself so seriously in posts like this. Stupid comments happen on this forum. You don't have to always give clever responses like this every single time pointing out the obvious. Everyone knows what FYP are meant for. Great, you can articulate why they are silly. You can be effectively passive-aggressive. You wonder why people accuse you of riding a high horse all the time.

LMAO

Good gracious, dude.... people generally do this to goof around on the person they quoted... that's what I was doing...

What the hell is up with you always assuming and/or requesting that someone "tap out" to you? You sadomasochistic bear, you.

This thread is like a semen filled eclair.

There just doesn't need to be such a desire to win discussions. Sandy never responded to my #105 post or answered the questions I posed. Probably due to lack of interest, being busy, or missing it. It happens. Doesn't need to be such a desire to always judge or decide that somebody KO'd someone else.

LMAO

Nice name change.

LMAO Proud to have played my part.

I did the same.... I asked him like 10 questions in one post in an attempt to shine light on why some Chiefs fans are the way they are... He answered zero of them...none of them were about Alex.

I agree.

When Foles had that spectacular year he had a solid O line. When Kelley shipped out players and destroyed the line then foles went to shit. Foles has a touch on his pass like Joe Montana. smith fires a harder to catch ball.

My best thread ever. So far I've got 7 new customers !

Edit : make that 11

Also a note to my new customers. You will need to be patient as Frazod and Clay have most of #1725 booked up.

Yeah and sometimes when Smith throws the ball...heck, it can be a 5 yard pass and he will look like he's putting everything he has into it.... He looks like a shot-putter sometimes.

Cassel had a season where he threw 27 TDs and 7 INTs and there are plenty of other examples of crap QBs having good years.

You want to be considered a good QB in this league you have to be consistent and do it year-in and year-out and at least put up OK stats even if the line sucks. Alex has done that here. Foles has not shown the ability to be consistent so far in his career.

And has a touch on his pass ike Joe Montana? Wow... That's a crazy comparison. He's no where near as good as Joe Montana in pretty much any category so please don't compare him to Joe Cool.

Foles has a decent arm and can be pretty damn accurate at times. Lets leave it at that. He's not Joe Montana, never will be.

going to look back on this. I don't avoid responding, unless something is just preposterous.. so I must have missed yours.

also don't recall Rico asking me something that seemed like it was expecting a response.. will minimally look for that too.

This has happened before, I think, but I may have you confused with Staylor...I get you and Staylor mixed up sometimes. But definitely happened with you a couple few days ago.

And thanks for the minimal effort, Lizzie!

Less gay bar - more CP...:)

You mean like the big plays that Smith made vs Indy? Imagine if Bowe had actually tapped that second foot in bounds. One lazy inch mistake, and suddenly the entire portrait looks different, right?

There is so much that doesn't get discussed, and simply becomes generic vagueness when this main crux of discussion takes place. I think the reason is either people understandably don't recall all of the specific moments... or maybe they just don't want to take the time to dig (me, mostly).. or they don't want to face their own hypocrisy.

My overall point was meant to be concise.. and remains. It's unfair to demand that Alex carry a broken/flawed team when even the elite QBs barely can, if at all.

Proven, winning formula = Alex + healthy Mac/Houston (insert other key players) = SuperBowl.

Alex has been present, and accounted for in each contest, and still did well enough with what he had. Did they? obviously not.


Again, you are demanding that he do what guys like Rodgers isn't even doing. Is anyone else really doing what you are demanding of him?


Not brushed aside at all. There's a reason that these players are making FAR more money than the rest. They were expected to help their QB to a SB. I'm not blaming them on a personal level.. people can't help it if they get hurt.. but it still ***** the team right in the ass.


a little of the slack? no Maclin, Houston, a hobbling Hali.. anyone else I am missing?

Smith had about 300 yards (40'sh rush yds) TD, no picks.. 60% 3rd down conversions.. around 3 yds per carry for their feature back, West... no JC, no Ware.. throwing to Avant Wilson, and Conley as WRs.. in NE.

Yes. I think Alex did what he could do with that.

I think I have covered everything to the point where anything unanswered can easily be done so with conclusions from the above.

I close in repeating this much...

you are demanding that he do what guys like Rodgers isn't even doing. Is anyone else really doing what you are demanding of him?

and

My overall point was meant to be concise.. and remains. It's unfair to demand that Alex carry a broken/flawed team when even the elite QBs barely can, if at all.

But the early Alex Smith is not playing this season. The current Alex Smith is. They play the game with the QB they have now. I believe Alex Smith can take us farther this year than Foles. We can worry about next year when we get there.

I don't care about numbers - I care about how effective a QB is.

If Foles balls out I'd expect a longer recovery time for Smith...

Singletary was a great player, but possibly the worst HC in the history of football. What does a linebacker know about QBs? Not a damn thing as it turned out.

I like both guys. Smith protects the ball better but is not a come from behind QB(a la playmaker when you need it.) Foles has a bigger arm with bigger NADS to thread the ball down field and actually make plays and can play from behind but does not protect the ball quite as good as Smith.

To win championships you need 'playmaking BIG NADS' !!!:D

I want to trade a ****ing QB for some tasty draft picks.


Don't care who we trade, i hope Smith and Foles just tear shit up and get us a draft pick.

Ok, bring Alex back please.

LMAO

Haha no. No, I do remember. I also don't think I am demanding. I am just stating that he likely will have to do those things. In fact, I even said it may not be fair, just necessary. If you have to put words in my mouth, so be it. He doesn't need to carry the team, just play better than he did in NE. Andy also needs to be a much better game manager in that game.

You can also keep referencing the times Rogers hasn't carried his team as evidence that QB's never do but that seems a little outrageous. I even cited a few QBs well bellow Rodgers level.

Do you think injuries are not going to happen in the playoffs? I guess you are saying you think Smith did enough against NE. I don't think he did. The IND game has always been something I have always referenced as encouraging, but the NE game still makes me wonder what he will do against the real good teams. It would be great if KC is healthy for a month of playoffs. Not gonna happen though. Players, especially the QB, are going to have to step up and play at a higher level.

Harbs had Alex playing his best ball ever and even he knew Alex at his best isn't good enough p

Apparently, that trait is easily replaceable.

Lol yea typical Alex victory today eat it up

Yet turned out to be better than Kap. And Foles. Harbaugh was wrong and so are you.

Harbaugh had his ass handed to him after making that decision and ran back to the college game.

I certainly wouldn't say today's win was easy. Foles sucked balls. You probably didn't notice because you were busy sucking HIS balls. We got a lot of turnovers giving us great field position and Foles still could only get it in the end zone once.

Harbs was not wrong replacing him with kap was is and always will be the right move at the time

Lmao if you think that is why harbs was fired you're a reerun the 49ers are a train wreck with out him.

He took the easy money no problem with that mich has been amazing since he has been there

Yeah, that worked out so well for them...

:facepalm:

Kap played well the year he took over (but not any better than Smith, who won as many games that year), but did not do well the next year. If Harbaugh had kept Smith in 2013 they would have been a better team.