10% more money infused into an open market does mean that you're likely to see 10% more spending.

Now the question is where. Will that necessarily be at the top of the salary scale? Will it be at any particular position?

Of course his agents will say exactly what is being suggested - 10% more money means my client should get 10% more, but Dorsey's response will be pretty simple; nah, it means that QBs, pass-rushers and cornerbacks will get 15% more but we'll gladly consider you worth 5% more.

OR, he'll argue that Mathieu's extension was done with the new cap in mind and was based on that new reality, thus it set the market with the 10% already in place.

I don't think Berry gets anywhere near what the OP suggests.

because the money effects how much you can spend on other players


:doh!:

Wanna bet?

He is shooting for 15+m per.


I think the Chiefs will end up folding and paying it

He's just pointing out how much better Berry is than Ward and stewart combined.

Lighten up Sandy.

That's what I'm saying Genious. If we let players dictate the way we spend the cap money it takes away our ability to build a contender. If you do overpay then you have to nail every draft.

Have not read the entire thread so this may have already been pointed out but your math is all wrong. $10 million out of $133 million is not 13.3%, it is close to 7.5%. You got your numbers backwards. 13.3% of $133 million is close to $17.5 million.

Now you may return to your normally argumentative thread! :)

Of course, but Boss is claiming that a 10% cap increase has a direct correlation to a 10% contract increase. There's no correlation there.

A 10% cap increase just means that the Chiefs can spend 10% more through out their roster.

It DOESN'T mean that you take Tyron's contract and increase it by the % that the cap increased.

Now, this is very easy for Boss to prove. You take the % amount the cap increased last season and check to see if that's how much of an increase Tyron received over the last highest paid safety.

My guess is the numbers won't correlate.

We have gone from Clark is cheap to people saying we are going to pay a safety $15MM per year.

LMAO

Good point.

A testament to the finicky nature of an NFL fan.

It's easier than that, really.

Mathieu and Harrison Smith both signed contract extensions that start in 2017. They were clearly signed based on the cap as of 2017 because those projections were out long before the ink was dry.

So you don't have to 'adjust' at all - you just say that Mathieu and Smith ARE the market and operate accordingly. You don't build an additional bump into it at all. You either say that Berry's a better player and better risk than those two guys and pay him a little more than they are getting, or you don't.

But you don't need to guess how much more of the cap should go to them at all; their markets were set under this cap.

He will not be paying a safety $15 million/year.

Am I the only person that is happy we have this problem?


It's nice having to decide whether or not to pay an awesome player.

I concur but people seem to think that.

Unless you are a Royals fan. :D

We are already up against the cap despite not being as good as other playoff teams.

We are ****ing 30th out of 32 teams in open cap space.

We have some big money guys to sign as well.


some of our money guys are underperforming

Money for our top 10 guys jump WAY up next year and so far they aren't worth it.

http://117.imagebam.com/download/_t_...37/Capture.JPG

FYI, for all those saying cut Alex Smith his cap number next year puts him around 24th in the league. You are not going to be able to sign a starting QB for less than that who is any good. Just keep him until we get a guy who can beat him out of the starting lineup.

Dorsey has to continue to hit in the draft and we need to start squeezing on some of these contract. If we don't continue to hit in the draft we are pretty much dead.

Touche. LMAO

Ugh.


That Houston contract......

Well then Berry is walking and people around here demand that the Chiefs don't let that happen.

Berry already said he's not playing on the cap next year which will be around 13 million.

QB money

It'll be worth it sooner than later

That doesn't mean he won't take less than 13M per year. That just means he wants long term security, and rightfully so.

This. Berry wants a long term deal.

It will take a 5 sack, 1 defensive TD on the way to Superbowl MVP to make up for the last 2 years.

Foles, Zombo, Mauga, Colquitt, JC, Bray

Just those guys alone free up quite a bit of $$ either by cutting or restructuring.

He's already missed how much time?

He will have to hit 20 sacks every year, for the rest of the contract, to make it worth it on an average.

It really isn't his fault, but damn that is/was a LOT of wasted cap space.

I know, there are ways that we can make it work but we are still spending a lot for the results in comparison to many other teams.


How this for not getting your money's worth?

http://117.imagebam.com/download/UPQ...37/Capture.JPG

agreed

Not quite.

He's been paid a combined $18.2 million the last 2 years, so $9.1 million avg. this was the light part of his contract.

The remaining cap hits in his contract is $22m, $20.6m, $21.1m and $19m averaging $20.7 million a year.

ROFL


Where is all that Jets money going?

come on now, you know that the first 2 years was the grace period

Without production early the contract is pure raping face from here on out.

No player will ever live up to their contract. Might as well say JJ Watt stole $14.5 million from the Texans this year.
It's not Houston's fault that this injury occurred.

The Chiefs could get out of Houston's deal in 2018 only paying him elite $$ for one season if the situation was really this bad.

Nice. I'm quite positive that Ward was their number 1 rated run defending safety for the 3 years prior to this, and I know for sure he was in 2013 and 2014. What I wasn't entirely sure about was just where Stewart ranked.

Thanks though, good to know.

I'll take 2 Parkers for a combined 47.5 million over 5 years over 1 Berry at 70 million over 5. Please and thank you.

they should have got the deal done last off season. Now he deserves to be the highest paid safety in the league. And now they have to Overpay.

I agree but paying any non-QB player 20 million per is problematic and we are getting ready to pay another non-QB big.

Houston and Berry will have approximately 37 million in cap space between them.

Houston - 22m
Berry - 15m

Even if Berry signs for 12m like some people argue, it's still 34m.

If that were the case, you'd have 68.8 with 23.4 guaranteed. 23.4 is a long ways from 38.

It depends honestly.

If I'm giving a player that big of a contract, I'm wanting an "out" just in case.

Take Justin Houston. Say his leg doesn't heal and he's out for the year again. We pay him QB money for one season and then we could cut him while saving $$ (if he refuses to restructure).

I think that's where we're at with Jamaal. Nobody thought he wouldn't recover this season but it happened, so the best thing you can do is ask to restructure or cut bait.

The worst case scenario is that Houston performs like an average LB, and gets paid the full amount.


I hate to say it, but I would rather he balled out and raped....or completely failed so the Chiefs can cut him loose.

Nah; in a year we'll be able to move on from some of our worst contracts, including DJ, Hali, Maclin and yes, Houston. If these guys don't show out in '17, they're gone in '18. And Hali and DJ are gone either way. I mean sure, you want to do well in the draft but EVERY team will fail if they're not supplementing their squad via the draft. They'll be in a much better cap position in the coming years than they are this season.

It's pretty much been an unmitigated disaster.

No it won't. The Chiefs needed to make hay on that deal in the first two years, before the backloading set in. Instead they got largely a zero return on their investment in those seasons and now he's toting around one of the largest cap figures in football. Even if he plays as one of the best players in football, he's not going to OUTPLAY the $$ he's due in the coming years and as such we'll stay at a defecit.

that contract has been a loser and as he enters his age 28 season next year, the odds of it looking any better in the coming seasons are pretty long. It was a deal the Chiefs had to sign and I don't fault them for it, but it hasn't worked out at all. Let's remember that even a HoF guy like Derrick Thomas was in steep decline by age 30 and he didn't have the knee issues that Houston has had.

It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

Some of the greatest single-season sack performances have came at age 29 or later.

Strahan (22.5) 29 y/o (also had 18.5 at 31 y/o)
Jared Allen (22) 29 y/o
Robert Mathis (19.5) 32 y/o
DeMarcus Ware (20) 29 y/o

Those are just the 'elite' seasons, there is a multitude of top notch pass rushers who have hit the 14-18 sack range in their 30s, some multiple times.

Maybe I'm just overly optimistic, but I think there's a lot of good football left in Houston.

I think so, too. Well, I would call it "hope".


He has the tools, and after 2 years of being absent I "hope" he goes nuts on the opponents.

I didn't say impossible, I said the odds were long and they are. Realistically you have 3 years (28-30) to create 4.5 years worth of production. On a guy with a rebuilt knee that doesn't seem to be responding as well as most would like.

He could be very good - he COULD play to the level of an individual season remaining on his deal. He could also easily be Mario Williams and hit a wall at age 30. He could do both of those things.

But one thing he won't do is make up for the season and a half he's missed or the 2 playoff runs where he's been completely ineffective, absent the kind of impact Von Miller made against Carolina.

And again - those odds are pretty long.

It sucks, but of course it's a


Because chiefs

Where are you getting that 15 mil. Number?

Another approach to take regarding the merits of signing Berry, Poe, etc to large contracts is to first decide who, on our current defensive roster, are the "building blocks" of the future and ensuring that we have the cap room available to keep these players. Who are the disrupters? Who do offensive coordinators have to scheme around? Who are the impact players? I'd offer that these include:

Houston
Jones
Peters
Berry

I just don't see Poe as a key piece. He's a nice player, but certainly doesn't stand out as a disruptor of all things offensive. Whereas the four guys noted above certainly appear to make a difference when they're on the field. With that, I'd lean towards signing Berry and letting Poe walk.....of course, you can't go "blank check" on any of these guys. That said, these are the key guys I'd make every effort to lock up contractwise.

This is one of the best draft classes for pass rushers in recent years. Would be really nice to grab one as insurance.

If you could do this instead of signing Berry and Poe, would you be on board?

Zach Brown - ILB - 4 years, 28 million, 15 million guaranteed (in line with Danny Trevathan/Brandon Marshall contracts last season). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million.
Barry Church - SS - 3 years, 16 million, 6 million guaranteed (in line with Kurt Coleman contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 3.7 million.
Abry Jones - DT - 3 years, 10 million, 4 million guaranteed (Al Woods/Steve McClendon type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 2.5 million.
Kevin Zeitler - RG - 5 years, 42 million, 18 million guaranteed (Brandon Brooks type contract). Estimated year 1 cap hit of 6 million.


Total estimated year 1 cap hit of 18.2 million.

What you get:

Brown is a physical presence in the box that sets the tone defensively and is rangy enough to stick with TEs and RBs in space.

Church is a physical, downhill box type safety which was Berry's primary role up until this season.

Jones is a tough run defender and clogs gaps, young and is coming into his own. Reminds me of Jaye Howard.

Zeitler is one of the best guards in the NFL.

You've effectively freed up your draft resources to do whatever the hell you desire. Draft BPA. Obviously would have to get a safety to take over for Church sooner than later, but you're looking at a guy the same age as Berry anyhow.

Just contemplating that letting both walk could be just as good of a call as keeping them.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8387/tyrann-mathieu

[x]
8/2/2016: Signed a five-year, $62.5 million contract. The deal contains $35 million guaranteed,including a $15.5 million signing bonus. Mathieu is elgible for an annual $250,000 workout bonus throughout the contract's life. 2017: $4.75 million, 2018: $5.75 million (+ $5 million roster bonus), 2019-2020: $10.75 million, 2021: $9.25 million, 2022: Free Agent

Wouldn't do it if it meant losing Berry. Those guys are nice players, but there's no telling how they would transition in KC.

In the NFL, strong leadership is so very important. Berry is our leader. He's the guy that everyone else looks to for motivation. He helps keep some of our players with crazier personalities in line (Peters specifically).

Continuity is a valuable thing in this league, and keeping Berry will be better for the locker room than letting guys like him and Poe leave only to bring in 4 new guys who have gave nothing to our orginazation.

Barry peaked this last season and IF we give him big $$ we will not get that playing value in return. More and more GMs are going the way of Bellichek and not paying the big superstar players up for a big pay day. Just let them go because you never get the play in return. Only one position gets that $$ and even TB takes pay cuts to get the right 53 on the squad.

Poe is done and we got the best years out of him IMHO. He will go the way of that NT from Tennessee that signed with Wash when Shanny was there and then pretty much disappeared on the field. Granted he didn't like the 3/4 d but still... this is what we are afraid of happening IF Poe gets the big $$.

Wildly inconsistent reports on this contract.

But the 2 places that I look to both report 21.25 initially, fully guaranteed with other guarantee provisions in the contract. Notably, 2018 triggers another 13.75 million in guaranteed salaries (18/2019) and 5 million guaranteed roster bonus. Total potential guarantees of 40 million if technical.

franchise tag he won't sign is 13 million
Tyrann Mathieu got 12.5m

salary cap is jumping up
all salary number will jump up
Top Cornerback are making 15 million
Berry is pissed at the Chiefs for the contract stuff last year

Berry will look for more than Chiefs refused to pay him last year and to be the highest paid secondary player in the league.

imo Berry will be asking for 15-ish million and the Chiefs will fold and give it to him.

The only way Berry sees $15M+ is if he hits the open market and a team like Cleveland or SF with loads of cap room decide to get stupid.

The amount that the franchise tag equals has nothing to do with Berry saying he won't play under it. He just wants the security of along term deal, which he is an injury away from losing under the tag.

Ok so you made it up...

where did everyone in this thread get 12 million number?

Oh, they made it up.

I also said approximately and gave the total if it's 12.5m.

It's all an educated guess

Unless you have something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion, why don't you shut the **** up and go back to humping your sister.

I'm betting is no where near 15m per year.

I don't think 15m is an educated anything.

What's the top safety getting?

You're saying he won't sign a 13 million contract.


Yeah on a one year deal that guarantees him 13.

A multi year deal is gonna guarantee at least twice that.

That's not saying at all what you are trying to imply it is. I'll let you figure it out yourself

12.5 m is coming from Tyrann Matheiu's average per year on his deal.

Not made up. Not educated guess.

It's still an educated guess about what Eric Berry will ask for. Unless you have personally talked to Berry's agent, it's an educated guess.

Since when do players ask for the same amount the last guy got? They don't, they ask for more.

Not only do players usually ask for more than the last guy got, they also ask for more each time the salary cap goes up. The more the cap goes up, the more the players try to push for higher contracts.

Next year has been rumored to have another big salary cap jump for teams, in the 8 figure range.

Apparently you read minds now, so just come out with it and tell me what I'm implying.

That since he won't play for 13m guaranteed he obviously wants 15m per year.

2016 Honey Badger: 5/62.5 35m guaranteed on a 155m cap (average per year is 8% of the teams overall salary cap)
2014 Earl Thomas: 4/40 on a 133m salary cap (average per year is 8% of the teams overall salary cap)

If the cap goes up to 170...care to guess what 8% of that is?

13.7m average per year.

It's also worth noting that Eric is a far more accomplished player than either of those guys.

Seems elite safety pay has increased proportionately with the salary cap increases to me.

Yep, I think $13 million a year is fair. Plus, give him the most guaranteed of any safety. Somewhere around $25 million guaranteed.

I'm torn on this. I don't think he's worth that much, much as I like Berry.

But let's be real... we have to stop the nonsense of trying to build up our offense and forcing Sutton to work with table scraps. Whether it's Alex or a rookie QB, we need to build this team around defense. Sign Berry and spend every last dime on building up the defense, even if it means overpaying.

The post above yours says the honey dipshit got 35 guaranteed.

Sutton has been given table scraps?

1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders on the DL
3 firsts and a third at LBer
A first and 2third rounders at CB
A first and third at safety

Not exactly table scraps, but I agree that even more investment t needs made on the defense to sustain and improve.

Two of those 1st round LBs are well past 30 and hobbled, ineffective or on IR frequently.

The DL has been a rag tag group of low round draft picks.

The secondary outside of Berry and Peters has been filled with scrap heap guys.

I think the secondary looks great for the next 2 years if Berry is extended.

DL needs at least 1 more guy for Howard leaving, maybe 2 if Poe leaves. Need an ILB and 1 more OLB for depth.

We really need to bulk up the front 7.

Howard is still here for 2017? If he is worthy, I'm sure they'd consider a small extension

Sutton doesn't need superstars at every position. But we have to stop walking into the season with gaping wounds at key positions. Our defense had complete turds at CB. And it's year 5 and we have not brought in a single ILB worth a damn. We lucked into finding a CB out of the trash, which unfortunately happened at the same time our ILB problem became horribly exposed.

The difference is, when you fix a position on defense, you see a noticeable improvement. We've made noticeable talent improvements on offense and yet we continue to see games like vs the Steelers where we completely misuse our talent. I would love to see our defense if we actually had a full deck to work with.

I wouldn't mind the Chiefs extending Dee Ford this offseason too while they're at it. The more I've analyzed it, I expect Ford to have a mega season next year if he doesn't have any setbacks.

Houston in his 3rd year before elbow injury (11 sacks in 11 games). Enters contract year in 2014, bets on self, makes hay with 22 sack season.

Ford in his 3rd year before hammy strain (10 sacks in 9 games). Finishes year with no more. I would never suspect a 22 sack season from Ford, but if he goes out next year and takes over with a 15+ sack season, we will again be forced to possibly pay QB money for a pass rusher.

Like Fisher last year, I'd like to see that deal get done by August..

IMO, the Chiefs defensive core going forward: Peters, Houston, Berry, Ford, Jones.

I think those are the 5 that you've gotta keep together right now. They are the playmakers. That's where the majority of the defensive cap space needs to be allocated in the coming years.

Gonna be interesting to see how far off I was.

"Both sides in the #Chiefs negotiation with S Eric Berry sound optimistic about the deal getting done." - Jason Cole via Twitter

Ford is a guy that you thank for his contributions and let him go.

This bet probably gets settled today, am I am thinking 50/50 on odds right now.

I am sticking to $13MM average salary which is about half a mil more than he should get but whats a half mil per year difference.

I'd like to take this time to deliver a big, rousing "**** YOU" to Scott Pioli and all the Falcons fans who delusionally believed that Eric would want to play for that Patriot Way-infested traffic-crawling bird poop-laden shit hole

Matt Ryan wouldn't want to throw all those picks in practice...