I said this defense, and TEAM, is a reflection of their head coach. They're not physically imposing. Fast, absolutely. But we don't get some physical and mental toughness, we'll always fall victim to those types of teams. The Ravens took us to the woodshed, we were lucky Mahomes was able to pull that one out. Arizona's defense gave us fits.

Enough

3 #1 picks. 4 #2 picks. Houston and a bunch of #3 picks.

You've got 8 top 64 picks in their respective years to put on the field. Plus a multiple pro-bowler in Houston.

That's not bottom feeder talent. It's just not.

Yes I know Berry's injured. So 7 top 64 picks plus Houston. And a bunch of #3's.

and Hitchens, who looked great last year in Dallas, meh here.

At best, they're underachieving.

I'm going to dispute this a bit, Mr. Haglund's_Spirit.

Mahomes is tough. Kelce loves contact. Both he and Tyreek don't back down and are fearless. Everything above Watkins' cankles is tough. Ware is a badass and so is Sherman. I could mention others including Dr. Mauler and Wylie.

Defensively, I don't think a rational person could argue that Houston isn't physically and mentally tough. Or Berry. I'd probably include Fuller in that list.

After that, it seems to drop off (in my mind).

I see a lot of posters trying to narrow our problems down to 1 (one) thing. Some say it's coaching. Others say it's talent. I fear our limitations may well be caused a combination of several things.

FAX

Though I agree with Fax's take in general, I do believe Mr. Haglund's_Spirit has merit. This is specifically what Veatch talked about LAST YEAR. He recognized that the nastiness of the defense needed to be ramped up. He supposedly drafted with that in mind. The problem is what he did to address this has not worked so far. I think the GM has been laser focused on this core problem from the get go. Priority #1 LAST YEAR was to fix the run defense. The concerning part is nothing he did appears to have helped with this issue so far.

Exactly.

Not only COULD Bob Sutton field a better defense with better talent - he DID. But that was in the past. Adjustments need to be made and he can't do it.

Start with him and then focus on the draft. Thinks can, and will, improve.

Looking around at the top tier defenses, I just can't see Sutton doing that anymore. You need someone that can be innovative.

Pattern matching, different fronts etc. He just doesn't have it in him anymore and it's too damn hard to amass that kind of talent.

Honestly, our GM issue is a key aspect of this debate. (It's what got us here in the first place.)

When your GM goes public and says he's going to "fix" the run defense and field a team that plays "tough" for 4 (four) quarters and fails this miserably in both, your organization has a problem.

Some scouts are better at finding offensive players and some are better at finding defensive guys. I'm wondering if our player personnel department is limited in that regard. We had no first round pick last year, so I'm hopeful Veach sees what everybody else in the world sees and corrects his course.

FAX

Nnadi was a very good player. Speaks...well...wasn't. That being said, a lot of the young guys weren't on the field a lot, which Veach doesn't control - Andy and Bob do.

It all starts with getting better coaching. After that, we'll see. I'm not ready to count Veach out yet but yes, it HAS to improve.

This offseason will speak volumes for Veach. He wanted to go younger, that was the reasoning for getting rid of Derrick Johnson and Tamba Hali. Does he continue down that path? Does he do what everyone else would do in this situation; sign Tyreek, sign Jones, tag Ford? Or does he continue with the younger approach; sign Tyreek, tag Jones, let Ford walk, and draft another pass rusher to get one more crack at it. Our shortcomings with Kpass and Speaks, at least to this point, make me weary that he will get it right on the third try, instead of just taking another hybrid LB that nobody can figure out what to do with. It'll be interesting to be sure.

I haven't lost faith and still have Veach ranked at only 120 Negative Veach Power Points. Considering the situation, that's not bad.

What bothers me is this; Veach made a clear statement that he was going to fix those two things. He was so convinced that he would do it that he stated it publicly and repeatedly. Okay, I get it. You have to speak things into existence. No problem. Plus, I think he tried.

However, you could look at it another way. You could say, "Who is this madman talking sh*t and not delivering on his declared promises?"

Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle ... hoping for the best.

FAX

Speaks needs to get his doughey ass into the weight room and convert 20 lbs of Popeye's Chicken into 20 lbs of muscle. He reminds me of Ryan "Donut Boy" Sims. You can't be a fat bastard in the NFL unless you're a MASSIVE fat bastard like Vince Woolfork. And guys like that are few and far between.

While I agree personnel is part of the problem, the bulk of the blame needs to fall on Sutton. There is flat out no excuse for a TV color commentator to be able to call what play should be run against our D and be right as often as he was. If he can see it, Brady and Hoodie could, too. Don't give me "Sutton's scheme is complicated". It obviously wasn't and it hasn't been for quite some time.

That is something that has troubled me as well. I figured in the preseason it was fine since he is just getting into the NFL conditioning program, but then he looked just as fat or fatter by the end of the season. ****er better have a reason for that spare tire.

We lost because of Bob Sutton and Dee Ford. It wasn’t even the talent.

I am so pissed off that Sutton played cover 2 on the last drive. Those goddamn safeties were playing so deep that the middle of the damn field was open for Edelman. I don’t get it.

I hate that ****er so much. How could you not jam Edelman at the LOS? Why on Earth would you leave that guy in single coverage with nobody in the middle of the field over and over again?

Watch this and try not to break your tv.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">TB12 went to work on third down during that last drive in KC! <br><br>How was he able to pick apart the Chiefs secondary? (via <a href="https://twitter.com/DCarr8?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@DCarr8</a>)<br><br>📺: <a href="https://twitter.com/NFLTotalAccess?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NFLTotalAccess</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/EverythingWeGot?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#EverythingWeGot</a> <a href="https://t.co/OjzC0lMAAl">pic.twitter.com/OjzC0lMAAl</a></p>&mdash; NFL Network (@nflnetwork) <a href="https://twitter.com/nflnetwork/status/1087734268204335105?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 22, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He's also playing out of position, that's Bob's fault. (Or Veach's for thinking it could work.)

KC has some dumb ass DB's who still don't know what their assignments are.

I'm not putting much blame on Ford's offsides for the loss when we had chance after chance to stop them on 3rd and long and failed. Or when we got gashed with run after run up the middle for 7-8 yards. That crap rests on the DC's head for not adjusting to the situation.

NO!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO DID'T KNOW?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OK THE REFS....

It wasn't just the DB's. Sitting at field level, you could see a lot of crap going on between plays. Xavier Williams spent a lot of time waving his arms and looking at the sidelines like he was lost. Nnadi did a couple of times. Their subs were off too - guys not knowing who was in and who was out.

It was really bad. Sutton has to go.

The Pats averaged 3.7 yards per rush. The Cheifs averaged 3.4

The Pats were able to get the Chiefs off the field on 3rd downs. That's what killed the Chiefs. We'd get them to 3rd down and they were 13-19 on 3rd down.

13-19. That's unreal.

They alex smith'd us.

You could see it on the television screen, as well.

FAX

I have used toilet paper sale. Just cleaned by YOURANUS.

I'm sure they were all exhausted and wanted to sub out at times leading to some confusion.* I'm not excusing Sutton at all, but the Pats came out much better prepared, executed much better and were much more physical. Belichick came out with a game plan that held KC's rushing attack, Hill and Kelce to under 100 yards combined. Absolutely brilliant.

KC's defense didn't even try to chip guys at the line that I could see.

* Reid should have called a defensive timeout in OT to give them a breather.

Yeah there's always things you look back on if you lose. An unfortunate mistake but there were many times where if one person did something different, we probably would've won the game. That's just the easiest to nitpick.

I'm 99% sure I saw Hitchens or Ragland line up as a DE because whoever was supposed to be there was standing out in the middle of the field waving his arms like a lunatic.

There was a ton of confusion in the first half, before they were exhausted. It was just crazy. I've never seen a team where one unit is so polished and well-oiled and the other is like the Bad News Bears.

Totally agree with this. I don't get all the blame going to Ford for a number of reasons:

1. Ford was probably the #1 or #2 difference maker on our defense this year, so without him, we don't get the one seed.

2. It's a call that usually starts with a warning, but either way, it's not much different than an illegal procedure, etc. Penalties happen in football. Our team commits too many of them overall, it's not just a Dee Ford issue.

3. We had several chances to stop them before AND after the penalty, including over time.

Yep.

Yeah, but we had them stopped. If he's not in the neutral zone, the game is over and we're headed to Atlanta.

That's not on the coaching or whatever. Line up behind the ****ing ball man. This isn't rocket surgery.

I've always been a little surprised by coaches pounding the fundamentals during summer camp. It's like, "OK guys, this is how you cover a wide receiver - or - this is how you shed a block." Seriously? But, that's what every team does and the successful teams do it best. That's just good coaching. But it also comes down to motivated players. Like Scott Frost said, "There are those that can't and then there are those that can, but won't."

Good coaches pound the fundamentals and also recognize those that can't or won't and then don't sign them to big contracts. Ultimately, it falls on coaching. This isn't brain science.

Doesn't matter!! Water under the bridge at this point. It is in that moment when IT COUNTS and matters THE MOST.:shrug:

Even more INEXCUSABLE to commit a mental error that you actually have total control over that your opponent cannot influence whatsoever especially when being forewarned.:rolleyes:

Andy,Bob and the staff knew the score going into this game how bad our defensive deficiencies were (i.e. lack of talent) therefore when you lack physical talent you must play smarter (not being out coached) with razor sharp focus with very good technique at all times to at least slow them down. That didn't happen.

And in spite of our defensive deficiencies(lack of talent and lack of good coaching) and our offense being 1/2 hamstrung the majority of the game we STILL put 28pts up to go ahead. And because Dee Ford was not mentally razor sharp focusing on what he could control in that moment which had nothing to do with our opponent's influence and why we are sitting at home.

Sure our defense should have never gotten to this point EVER !! I get your point! But you can't play that card because we knew going in what our challenges were therefore you control what you CAN CONTROL and that was NOT DONE !!


Like I said, BB knows his opponent offensively and defensively better than they know themselves most of the time and plays chess against himself better than any coach when it comes to prepping and what to throw at his opponent both offensively and especially defensively to surprise his opposition. Andy and Bob know Bill does this and they did not prepare for this and why our D players were lost most of the game.

My point is control what you can control when those crucial moments come when going against a superior opponent and we did not especially Dee Ford and we paid a dear price.

We were given a gift by our opponent and we chose not to receive it.

And where would we have been if you took away Ford's 13.5 sacks and 7 forced fumbles?

I totally agree with what you said in your full post but the reason I sectioned this partial statement of yours was, I wonder how come a coach wasn't watching for this very thing to make sure the players were lined up correctly? Or was there a coach screaming at him to move back ? Now with that asked, this is still on Dee no doubt and is on him totally BUT like I said it is all about preparation and if I am AR I appoint someone to watch for these things because this is a HUGE GAME and he knows Dee is not the sharpest tool in the shed.:thumb: You know the very simple act of calling a timeout in OT to give your D a breather which should have happened but didn't as Collinsworth and someone else on this board pointed out.

My point again, "things you can control" in the heat of the moment.;)

Apples to oranges my friend.

Football is an existential game that is played "in the moment" and when that moment comes you can't rely on the past to perform in the present, but rather you must perform "in the present" in that moment when it presents itself". And why I started a thread on game day, called "Greatness is a choice".

Dee made his choice to be careless rather than great when it counted the most.:rolleyes:

I think we should pay Dee Ford, we need a really highly paid defense that can't perform.

Pay Chris Jones too, we'll have a super highly paid defense that still sucks, it's a great strategy.