This fits with what we know about Gruden; he wants to take our best defensive players out of the game as much as possible.



Do other coaches not?

Some don't. Some seem to depend on their scheme to handle things, even when there's a star player on the field.

But more often it seems like some coaches/units lose track of the guy(s) they're supposed to be doubling/paying extra attention to. Clark was doubled nearly every down, so I surmise that the Raiders were well aware of his presence whenever he was on the field.

John Fox. I remember in the Super Bowl (I think it was the SB, might've been the NFCCG), he tried to rely on his offensive scheme to handle the pass rushers and it didn't work. The defense got to his QB and RB pretty consistently throughout the game. I remember the game because I told my buddy that Fox would have to make the adjustment coming out for the second half. He didn't. We were both yelling at the TV, "you need to chip that guy!"

So for what it's worth, I do need to clarify and walk back a couple things about what I wrote. I was far too many beers into that point of the game, and yes, I realize it was only the end of the 1st quarter. No, it's not an excuse, and yes, I just called it a "walk back." This is definitely a thread I wouldn't normally start, and I wish I hadn't, because I do look like a dumbass. If I had to bitch about a player (which I sometimes do) I'd find the dumbass thread somebody else started and write my opinion in that thread.

What spurned my anger? Well, yeah, at that point in the game the defense WAS playing like trash. I started this thread when I saw Carr with a 100% clean pocket on consecutive plays during the Raiders' only TD drive in the first quarter. The defense had been doing its usual "run defense looks better, but QBs all complete ridiculous percentage of their passes against us" routine from last game.

That being said.....

1. Seattle gouged us on this trade. It ****ing sucked when it happened, and it still ****ing sucks. I 100% believe Clark is way better than Ford, but I don't think he's a full 1st round pick better than Ford. Whatever, though. It shouldn't matter what I think about what Clark is worth. It matters what Veach and Spags think Clark is worth. If they have to slightly overpay to get the player that matters to them and fits in best, so be it. I didn't have the info and knowledge of the player and the person that Veach had. That's why he's a GM and I'm just a fan.

2. HOWEVER, it does still suck to spend that AND pay him the contract we did and still have to wait for a bit until other players on defense improve and get used to the scheme so that more attention is placed on them and Clark can get more opportunities to make plays. No, I'm not talking about just sacks, either. I simply mean timely tackles at the line of scrimmage. Good block shedding. QB pressures just as much as QB sacks. Tackles for loss.

No, the stories of great defensive players aren't always told with stats, but again... being a Chiefs fan and seeing all the big money contracts we've given to defensive guys only to have them shit their pants with it... well, when you're several beers in and the defense looks like they did in the 1st quarter and Carr has all ****ing day to throw and has no problems whatsoever completing his passes to steamy turds like Tyrell Williams and Hunter Renfrow, and the guy you spent money on hasn't produced so much as a single QB hurry or a bead of sweat to run down Carr's forehead, and you're losing 10-0 to the ****ing Raiders....

Yeah, we've all been there. I just gave in to the demon of dumbassery, okay?

It's still early. A lot of football left to be played. He is at least drawing double teams like others have said.

Only two games in so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, my main concern is the money we are paying him could cost us Chris Jones.

I must say, you have become a whingin' lil bitch lately. But this is merely an observation :D

This is exactly what happened week 1 as well. Dude is getting chipped or doubled almost every pass play except the 3 step drop stuff. It's letting everyone else get 1v1 wins.

Possibly but that’s assuming we hit on our first rounder. Dee Ford is anything but icing. He’s a one dimensional player who’s lack of discipline in regards to what side of the ball to line up on cost us a trip to the SB.

I think you are overvaluing our 1st rounder last year. Had it been a top 10 pick you would have a solid argument. Where the Chiefs drafted it was essentially a high 2nd rounder. Not bad for a player who up to that point had proven himself in the league.

I must say, you have always been a giant flaming dipshit.

People that think Clark has sucked are the same people who thought Ford was awesome.

You're not really watching if you think that.

Clark plays disciplined football and doesn’t abandon his assignment to chase QB pressure no matter what. I admire what it brings to the table. He’s an all-around end.

And he requires game planning. His presence allows opportunities to other players as the offense shifts protection left to deal with him. It opens up things for Jones and Ogbah/Okafor on the other side, and we're seeing some benefits already.

Dude come on. 100M for a player who “doesn’t abandon assignments?”


You’ve gotta be kidding.

This. Clark brings so much more to the defense from setting the end to maintaining his gap assignment and getting push into the pocket. He’s a big reason we aren’t giving up huge runs over and over again.

PB you can’t see the immense value Clark brings to this defense over a 1 dimensional Dee Ford?

I can’t analyze defensive players very well. I don’t know if he’s better. I know 1 thing tho: $100M + #1 pick buys me Kalil Mack. Or else I don’t do that deal.

There's a lot more to playing defensive end than sack stats. He does all of it well, and the sacks will come. Right now, the first two weeks opposing offenses have game-planned to keep him off their QB. Jax kept a chipper in and got the ball out quick. Oakland played a lot of two TE sets.

That's fine, it means Jones and Okafor/Ogbah/Kpass get opportunities.

He's been excellent against the run, snuffed out screens, and is still pushing the pocket. The numbers will come.

Ford, on the other hand, either beat the LT at the snap or did nothing. He was subpar against the run, and had no real instincts as far as the complete game. He's not a physical player, he relied on speed and beat you at the snap or got stonewalled.

If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you except that you clearly don't know as much about football as you think you do.

Except you don’t get Mack for that.

Oaklands offense is getting the ball out quickly Chubb and Miller didnt get him do you guys think they suck? Go back and just watch Clark and nobody else

He's being paid like a top 5 defensive player in the league. This is a capped league and Clark is taking a monster chunk of that.

IF all we need is what you described, you could have had that for like 1/4th of the price.

No, for what he's being paid and what they gave up, you need all that an the numbers. He needs to ****ing wreck games, not "push the pocket".

No, you don't get DE talent that opposing offenses have to tailor their approach to work around for 1/4 of that.

by the end of the regular season you'll see. He'll have double-digit sacks, and then all of y'all who use that stat to determine a DE/edge player's worth will chill out. Right now, teams are gameplanning to neutralize him, which is giving Jones and the opposite DE spot opportunities. We're making them pay for it, and soon they'll start playing straight up across the line and you'll see Clark getting home.

It’s telling that the sunshine pumpers are saying 2 diff things:

1. Just wait till he has a monster 3-sack game so we can bump this!
2. He doesn’t have to have monster games to make a diff.

Teams gameplan to take away Khalil Mack. He still dominates. That's what Clark needs to be to make the contract work.

I mean, I get it. He was billed as this DPOY kinda guy and we want that to be true.

But for ****s sake, it's ok to say "yeah, he's not being the difference maker yet".

Is that right?

So far this season, Khalil Mack has 6 solo/combined tackles and one sack in two games.

Frank Clark has 6 solo/combined tackles, no sacks, and one interception.

So by your own measuring stick, Frank Clark is doing fine.

I'm with you, Chris. He's more of a complete player than Ford. I just think we haven't seen all the things he brings to the table yet. It's not all about sacks, which I think he'll get as the season progresses. This is a new D that will take some time to gel.

Clark is a huge upgrade over Ford. The Sacks will come. He make this defense much better IMO

PB isn’t factoring in things like Clark’s contribution to improved run D, or 3rd down stops, or his INT.

He’s a sack stat guy.

Meh. KC's old defensive leaders were not ideal. Berry barely played and Houston took plays off.

Taking plays off is infectious when your leader does it.

Clark is a hustle guy. He plays hard every snap. That's ALSO infectious. I'll give him a whole season before I declare him to '****ing suck', but I see more hustle this year which is really good.

I understand all that stuff.

But again, for what he's getting paid, you need it all. You need that stuff plus the sacks for the value on the contract to work out.

2 games in under a new defense...chill a bit. If we continue to allow oy 18 points per game average all season then I dont care if he never get a sack.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

How many sacks does he have to get to meet your quota?

10? 13? 17?

Guys often get sacks in bunches, not on some 1 or 2 per game consistent basis. Except, apparently, Chris Jones. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt after TWO games.

I actually don't have a sack number to be honest, i'm more of a pressures and just disruption kinda guy and the sacks will come.

But yea, he needs to be a 12 sack guy I guess if I put a number on it.

Okay, so none of you 'Clark sucks' guys want to comment on my direct Mack/Clark stat comparison through the two games so far?

I saw Mack come in last year to a new system or whatever and wreck shit.

I'll give him a bit of a break because I've seen him be a badass after moving like that.

I haven't seen Clark do that.

I think you’re spot on point.

I'll say this - he had a couple nice sticks yesterday - but he also looked gassed out there, some.

Mack wrecked a hurting Packers OL and made a backup QB who isn't even in GB anymore look horrible bc he held the ball forever. That’s amazing isn’t it?

Mack got paid all that money and didn’t do anything that game when Rodgers came back.

Rodgers took a giant shit on their expensive diety and led a comeback win on one leg.

Context matters

That’s how you put things in perspective

Nice post

Fair enough. For his money I'd expect him to crack double digits and I think he will.

I think he's brought a lot without the sacks so far, but obviously I think it's a big disappointment if he can't crack 10.

Eh... I think stats are misleading.

Mack is a more disruptive player on a down to down basis, and I don't think ANYONE would argue that. Stats are nice, but people should use their eyes.

Hypothetically a pass rusher can disrupt an entire game and not post a sack. Hypothetically a guy can have 2 or 3 sacks and never actually BEAT an offensive linemen to get them.

Clark is just not and never has been a down to down disruptor like Mack. It's not even a fair expectation to put on him.

I'd rather have the generational QB than the generational pass rusher. Already had that. Didn't win a ****ing thing.

except that you haven't really.



in 2018, Mack had 47 tackles, 12.5 sacks, 18 QB hits and one INT.
in 2018, Clark had 41 tackles, 13 sacks, 27 QB hits, and one INT.

This season, their stats are nearly identical other than Clark has an INT and Mack has one sack.

2 games is a tiny sample size, but even within that sample size, any concern over Clark's production when compared to Mack is rendered null and void.

Mack certainly had some big games last season; he also had some in which he barely shows up on the stat line. Same with Clark. That's kind of the way it works in the NFL.

I'm sure both he and Clark will this season as well.. But a head to head comparison with your own player of choice shows there's no reason for concern.

I don't know how else to allay your fears.

Numbers count or they wouldn’t keep track of them

Cave also adds some perspective with his post above

Well, to be honest, Mack is probably the best edge player in football. He's more disruptive than anyone.

I would argue that Clark is just a tick below. And that this first 2 games is a tiny sample size, and that even within that tiny sample size, his play has been fine and compare favorably with Mack. The sacks will come.

Statistically, his 2018 was very comparable to Mack, the best edge player in football. Half a sack more and 1/3 more QB hits.

As for disruptive, he's been very disruptive. He's been very good against the run, has blown up some screens, and has required extra attention/game planning from opposing offenses to keep him contained. Pretty soon, teams will have to abandon that and we'll see the sacks come in bunches.

I say anyone claiming he sucks is just flat wrong and doesn't know what they're talking about.

Burn that strawman down.

"Stats don't tell the whole story" is obviously a different statement than "Stats are worthless", but go on.

We agree on the core of the argument. My only point is a 2 game comparative sample is not really viable.

There are probably quite a few guys with better stats after two games than Mack, but that doesn't mean they're better players or have been as disruptive.

Which is exactly the reason I'm not in a panic because Clark isn't stuffing the stat sheet. He's a really good player, and he'll have his games.

Chiefs sacked Carr 3 times and only gave up 198 yards passing. I don't care about individual stats as much as i care about giving up only 10 points and winning by 18.

I mean we shut them out for 3 quarters in a game they were trailing by 3 scores in by the second half. :shrug:

Numbers only count when they work for "your" guy. So far, after 2 games, the chiefs are looking like a middle of the pack defense which is far above last year. I'd also say that it's sooner than expected regardless who they have played. Keep giving them time to develop chemistry and communication and learning to play together. I'm cautiously optimistic at this stage.

Frank Clark sucks? Because he didn't get a sack in either game yet? Ok

That SEEMS to be the argument. That only shitty pass rushers go 2 games without a sack.

Or something. I'm not really sure.

Did I say that was all he does?

Others are already making the points I would make and making them better than I would.

If Clark continues to demand double-teams while playing well against the run and holding the point of attack, he’s doing his job and doing it well; he doesn’t need to rack up sack totals like Dee Ford did to be a better player, especially in this scheme.

He’s an intelligent football player, too. If you watch him closely, you see a handful of plays where he realizes it’s a three-step drop and the ball is about to come out, so he stops his rush and tries to get hands up.

He’s just an all-around good player, and that’s what they need as the centerpiece of this D.

If they pair him with another really dangerous pass rush threat at the other DE spot or Chris Jones gets on a roll and starts commanding double-teams and chips, he’ll find easier opportunities in pass rush situations.

I suspect the Chiefs DL under the Daly/Spagnuolo combo will continue to look like this, though. All-around players who are intelligent and do their job every down, without freelancing.

First let me say though, I don't think Clark sucks at all. He's a really good complete player.

My argument is more about what they gave up and are paying him, we need him to be more of a force and make plays.

I NEVER thought Ford was awesome.

right.

so I suppose my critique of the argument is that the people saying Clark sucks watch Chiefs games and not much else, just stat totals.

So they're all-Clark sucks! He's no Khalil Mack!

And I'm all-well, statistically, he compares favorably with Mack in last year's statistics and so far in the two games this year.

And they're all-


And that appears to be the conversation.

I'm completely unconcerned with Frank Clark. I have concerns with the LB corps, and have some questions at CB, but I have no concerns in the front four at all, really.

Also, not to make this thread "all about me" but it's disingenuous to think I and others have questioned if Clark was worth it "because no sacks."

I never once brought up sacks. I said QB pressures and big plays in the OP.

I also posted this before the end of the 1st quarter.

But even you all have to admit... the Jacksonville game up to the end of the 1st quarter, the defense was playing like shit, and Clark wasn't really demonstrating much to change that trend.

Mack only played 13 games last year IIRC so he probably has some deflation of stats there.

He also came into a new system and immediately wrecked GB game one. He gets doubled and such all the time, yet still seems to make big game changing plays.

We haven't seen that from Clark yet.

It's great that he's good against the run, hustling and whatever. That's all awesome, but again, that's expected.

With his contract, he's expected to be as Veach said, a "DPOY" candidate. Thru 2 games, he's not been that.

I thought the lb played okay if not well.

It's not just that. It's such a cliche complaint about pass rushers in general.

Back in the day even Lawrence ****ing Taylor was accused of 'disappearing' for stretches because he wasn't putting up numbers for a few games. KC fans ALWAYS made this complain about DT.

It's not a BFD. Larger sample is needed. I think Clark will be fine. We're talking about TWO GAMES.

I also don't really put much into the Interception. It was a three timed tipped ball that he was in the right place for.

As a 43 DE, go get the QB. If you get doubled or chipped, ok. Great. They aren't doing that every play and when he's not getting that, he's not really getting much pressure.

okay, well, that's true regarding Mack playing in 14 games (started 13). But 1/3 more QB hits?

And no, we haven't seen it yet, but it's a small sample size and within that sample size, his stats compare very favorably to Mack.

So what I'm saying is-any panic is REALLY premature and reactionary.

Sacks always come in bunches. We always had this argument with Houston and company.

I think my argument is getting kinda misconstrued here. I don't have any worries that he'll be fine.

My thing is that the Chiefs D needs him to be more than fine. What he's done so far just isn't good enough for what they gave up and are paying.

I think Frank agrees as he's said so, so I'm not really worried that it won't come hopefully.

Clark isn't Mack, so don't start expecting him to play like he is. There's an ENORMOUS gap between 'as good as Kalil Mack" and 'Sucks"

Eric Hicks Fan

I think those of us expecting more are basing that on what Veach told us though.

They viewed him as the 2nd best defensive player in the league and a defensive player of the year guy.

I don't have a problem with people asking more of him based on that.

But yea, he definitely doesnt' suck that's hyperbole.

I think the core of your argument is that you expect him to be more disruptive (stats aside) on a down to down basis than he has been. Is that fair?

Yep.

This is essentially pre-season for the starting DL, they haven't truly have their legs under them. The Ravens game and on we'll see an improvement.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Chris Jones vs Raiders in Week 2:<br><br>1 sack<br>6 pressures<br>1 PBU<br>1 run stop for no gain<br><br>That&#39;s a dominant afternoon against an offense that wanted to get the ball out in 2.1 seconds on average.</p>&mdash; Craig Stout (@barleyhop) <a href="https://twitter.com/barleyhop/status/1173622843474677760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 16, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is a dominant game. I'm gonna guess he gets doubled and such too.

Chris Jones played more in the pre-season too

This and also to me we played 2 run first offenses. The Defense held up rather well to the smash mouth football. Clark looks like a good reason why they looked better against the run. Last years dee does not hold this Raiders team to 10 points.

Last year’s Dee Ford could have been WAM-blocked out of running plays by Hunter Renfrow. (So could this year’s)

Almost every single pass rush in this clip has Clark either getting chipped by a RB/receiver or doubled with a guard.

The few times at the end when he wasn’t was a designed quick pass (our 2 INT’s) and the one he almost got a sack on at 7:10...but was again a quick release.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_x_Jjb8wmyQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It blows my mind that people want to see individual stats above good team defense.

If Frank Clark helps this team win a championship, he's worth every penny.

It’s no strawman, you can’t just dismiss the numbers like that... through 2 games Clark has been his equal according to the ways we use to determine a players effectiveness

He can at times be Mack’s equal, no question about it... his career stats are what they are

And when the opponent is getting the ball out as quickly as they've tried to against us the first two weeks, the only way you're going to get pressure is up the middle. Which is why Jones has gotten to the QB and Clark hasn't. And that's, not coincidentally, why I think it's so important to get Jones under contract long term.

On the slower developing plays, so far, it appears that, if Clark isn't getting a straight double-team, he's at least getting chipped. He's definitely been a focus of the game plan.

I don't think Frank Clark has been bad the first two games but it's true that he hasn't made too many splash plays.

Chris Jones did against the Raiders and was dominant.

But really, even most great players go through phases where for stretches they play amazing, other stretches they play good to great and a few games they play just OK.

Clark doesn't have any sack but then Von Miller doesn't have any either.

I am sure Frank Clark is going to have great games and many splash plays soon.