He made it to 3 Super Bowls, but each of those years they missed playing New England in the playoffs. I don’t know if they would have beaten the Pats in any of those season, but he definitely didn’t fare well against them for most of his career.

I tend to agree with you here. Big Ben may be past his prime but his line and receivers did him no favors.

It will be impressive if the Steelers can avoid slipping below .500 over the next couple of years.

Could be an interesting time in Pittsburgh. Some talking heads say they are bottom 3-4 teams in NFL and should tank the season.

Tomlin sounds tired and beat in his press conferences.

I wonder if he moves on......

He lost a playoff game to Tim Tebow. That was some rough waters to sail from

He can coach iowa.


Um maybe not

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Two Super Bowl appearances*

Incorrect.

They had two coaches who served six years: Hanifan and Whisenhunt.

But either way, not a good look at all.

He also finished 8-8 three times.

The press acts like he is 11-5 every year.

Recent history their entire season is determined by whether Watt can stay healthy or not. If Pickett actually becomes a decent NFL QB that probably changes but it is insane how that defense transforms from reasonably stout to worst in the league all based on 1 player.

You’re right. I forgot that Cowher was still coach in 2005. Ben went to three, but two were with Tomlin.

Tomlin made the playoffs last year with the corpse of Big Ben at QB. He's dealt with some of the most toxic personalities in sports in that locker room with Antonio Brown and LeVeon Bell and kept them somewhat under control.

You get him a good OC and a decent QB and he'll win you 10 games every single year. With the way some of these recent coaching hires are looking, the Steelers would be fools to let him go. If he's the one who wants a break and a change of scenery, I would definitely understand that from him end.

He'll have his choice of openings if they do decide to split up.

Tomlin has built up his “never had a losing season” so called achievement with a bunch of 8-8/9-7 seasons.

Not a Tomlin fan, but probably he's got a lot more leash than several other HCs around the league, like Hackett, Eberflus, Klifbar, and Reich.

My guess is that Tomlin could have a losing season and he'd still be safe. In 2023 anyway.

I don't think it will be the Steelers cutting ties, it would be a worn out Tomlin.

The organization refuses to make big moves, and Tomlin has been there long enough that he's not going to take risks to put the team over the top.

Maybe they'll continue their never had a losing season streak. Maybe they won't. But I don't see Pickett being the prime Big Rapistberger they'll need to even get back to just being a legit threat to win a playoff game or two each year.

I'm not too much of a fan of Tomlin. But I generally agree with you except the part about toxic personalities. Why do people think he does a good job? Antonio Brown & Leveon Bell became toxic under his watch. I would assume he was instrumental in bringing guys like George Pickens in. And he did nothing while Juju and Claypool created unnecessary distraction. Meanwhile, there are plenty of rumors that he fed into Ben's stubbornness which led to his refusal to adjust to his game. Either he can't control these toxic personalities or he has terrible judgment.

I suppose that’s all true as well. Much like you I’m not actually a huge fan either, but sustained success like he’s had is hard to ignore in a league like this. Especially when so many teams are floundering in absolute mediocrity. You know Carolina or Detroit would probably pounce on a guy like him if he became available. He at the very least gives your culture some legitimacy.

I don't think Detroit is going to move on from Campbell, IMHO.

While true, Tomlin isn’t drafting either.

I will never admit the pitt receiver scored a TD vs the cards

Tomlin is a good coach, but just as Belichick is proving, a good coach can look really bad with a terrible QB situation.

Well, as of right now he’s 4-17-1 since taking over. I’m not seeing too many more wins on the schedule this year either although they’ve played tough in most of their games. Let’s say they go 3-14 or something, I don’t see how you keep a coach who wins 6 games in 2 years. Although, they are the Lions I suppose. :p

McCarthy is underrated. People act like Payton is a guru and McCarthy is a dolt but the truth is different.

I*used scoring offense as the metric.

(#1 finishes in bold)

Payton:

Top 5: (2006,*2008, 2009,*2011, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020)
Top 10: (2013, 2014, 2015)
Top 15: (2007, 2010)
Top 20: (2021)

Fun fact: Saints finished 3rd in offense in 2012: the year Payton was suspended for BountyGate

2019: Brees missed 5 games with injury
2020: Brees missed 4 games with injury
2021: Only year without Brees. (Winston 5-2, Hill 4-1, Book 0-1, Siemian 0-4). Defense was #4 in points by the way. Allen!

McCarthy

Top 5: (2007, 2008,*2009,*2011,*2012,*2014,*2016, 2021)
Top 10: (2010, 2013)
Top 15: (2015, 2018)
Top 20: (2020)
Top 25: (2006, 2017)

2006: First year with Favre. The duo famously dueled. Much improved as the season continued.

2013: Rodgers missed 7 starts. (Flynn 2-2, Tolzien 0-1-1, Wallace 0-1). Offense still finished top 10.

2017: Rodgers missed 9 starts. (Hundley 3-6). He was bad. Posting a 9-12 TD-INT ratio.

2018: McCarthy was fired at 4-7-1. Team averaged 23.4 PPG with him. Without him: 23.75 PPG.

2020: Dak missed 11 starts. (Dalton: 4-5, DiNucci 0-1, Raiders Offseason Legend Garrett Gilbert 0-1). Scored 30+ points four times with Dak before the injury. Did it four times afterwards. But had games of 10, 3, and 9 that killed it.

Looks like both coaches*generally induced good results from their talent. McCarthy had the edge in #1 offenses. But Payton has less dud years. Of course, how many offensive gurus are blitzing the league with Tolzien, Flynn, DiNucci, and Hundley? McCarthy has some rough*stretches without Rodgers but Payton plummeted to #19 without Brees.

consider*this:

Winning percentage (regular season)

Payton is at 63% (152-89)
McCarthy is 60.9% (143-89-2)

Playoffs

Payton: 52.9% (9-8)
McCarthy: 52.6 (10-9)

Both have one Super Bowl as head coach

Playoff rate

Payton: 9/15 years
McCarthy: 10/15 years (And McCarthy only missed the playoffs twice with a full year of*Rodgers: 2008 (Rodgers' first year as starter) and 2018.)

Payton missed the playoffs with a full year of Brees a whopping 5 times!

Payton is widely hailed and respected. McCarthy is reviled and mocked. Both had HOF QBs. Both HOF QBs weren't at their peak before both coaches arrived. Rodgers was a second year player on the bench and with McCarthy's help completely reworked his mechanics. Brees was coming off a shoulder injury that scared off most teams. Payton isn't criticized for only winning one SB with Brees. Even though, for a decent chunk of time, Brees had marvelous years wasted by 31st and 32nd ranked defenses. That falls under the head coach.

McCarthy is lambasted for only winning one SB with Rodgers. Yes, he made an error or two in the postseason but so has the golden boy Rodgers. But only McCarthy received blame for those postseason failures.

Payton is considered a sure fire HOF coach. Say the same thing about McCarthy and people laugh. But their resumes are similar. And McCarthy despite the playoff losses, at least, made it more often with a HOF QB than Payton did. Payton missed 4 out of 5 years at one point because he couldn't fix a 32nd ranked defense. That is horrible coaching not to find a solution.

At the end of the day, I see two offensive gurus (Dallas' offense has been pretty good. People here are always talking about Dak's stats) who won a Super Bowl, helped with the construction/resurrection of a HOF QB, that ultimately won just one title with said QBs. They should be viewed as similar.

It is the Seifert/Flores argument. Either both go in or neither.

When you miss the playoffs during four prime years of Brees, you deserve some censure. And Payton has largely escaped that censure.

It's more so of repairing the culture which was badly needed in Detroit when Campbell arrived. Their roster was completely gutted a year ago, and Detroit has made a very clear effort to fill those spots with young, developmental pieces who are still learning through mistakes.

I should note that their offense is pretty good. They are 8th in the NFL on Rushing Yards per game, 7th in the NFL on Passing Yards per game, and 3rd in the NFL at Points per game. At this stage, they are still investing in developing their youth and they're trying to weather the injury storms.

Their biggest issue is their defense as they're giving up 34 points per game. That is last in the NFL. If they have a middle of the pack scoring defense, their record would have been better than 1-4.

I think Detroit will finish with 6 wins.

And just like that @Wisconsin_Chief, Lions has hit the 6-win barrier. I had them going 6, so at least I got that nailed, with 4 games left to play.

Yeah, they look damn impressive. I’m honestly happy for their fans and for Jared Goff. They legitimately looked like a better team than Minnesota today. They play their asses off, too.

They’ll far surpass that 6 win total. I’ll be shocked if they don’t finish at least 9-8.

Agreed. They had a rough beginning, no doubt. But they definitely look the part of a legitimate wild-card contender.

The hilarious irony is that Detroit may have gotten good enough to not even attempt to upgrade the QB position. Having a team this good and betting the farm on Goff to take you far seems like the Lionsiest of moves.

Correct.

Pittsburgh has had 3 head coaches.

You coach there until you don't want to coach anymore.

They're clearly not drafting like they used to, their well has run dry

And its its reeeally exposing Tomlinson

He needed to be gone like 5 years ago...In the last 12 years the Steelers have 3 playoff wins. Like Bradshaw said he's a glorified cheerleader. He had success early because his coordinators were Arians and Lebeau. They were the ones running the show.

I don't care about always being 500 or making the playoffs. In the NFL all that means is you don't suck. He is a lousy coach

Seriously?

Yeah, Tomlin is a fantastic coach.

If Pittsburgh is dumb enough to let him go (they aren't), he will have a job in SECONDS.

Some teams would fire a coach to get a chance to bring Tomlin in if they had to.

Could be a possible landing spot for EB, hopefully

Maybe as OC, but Mike.Tomlin isn't going anywhere.

Like Andy Reid in Philly, sometimes both the head coach and the team need to move on from each other. Coaches can stay in one place too long.

But, while I think Tomlin is a better than average head coach, I think he and Bellicheat have something in common, and that is they were clearly propped up by a HOF quarterback.

Tomlin took over a team that won the SB. He didn't build the team up from really bad seasons. He started his career with a HOF quarterback, and now that that QB is no longer with the team, he is struggling to win at the same rate.

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The franchise will have more patience with him than, say... the Donkeys. But he's only got a handful of seasons to find a QB.

Even if Pickett stops sucking one day, I just don't know if he's got the skills to be called a good QB.

At this point asking him to turn into Alex Smith is asking for a lot.

He squandered a lot of talented teams.

Eh, Belichick is still a defensive mastermind and proved it in multiple tenures before NE. And his first three Super Bowl wins were when Brady was a game manager. Brady wasn't the driving point of those teams. The defense was.

Of course, all the Super Bowl wins with Brady were top 10 defenses.

Tomlin isn't anything close to that.

True, but there was a lot of talent on those NE defenses back then. Belechick wasn’t coaching a bunch of scrubs. This is not to say that Tomlin is a better DC than Bill because he’s not.

His crowning work was stopping the K-Gun in the Super Bowl and holding Elway's Broncos scoreless in the AFC championship game for a half while with the Jets as a DC.

Personally I think his best ever was in SB 53. He outright put clown shoes on the high flying Rams offense and McVay.

Lot of teams with shitty coaches but most have horrible situations; Denver, Colts, Texans.

The best place for Tomlin would be the Chargers.

Staley has vastly underperformed.

This guy is one hell of a coach. It’s crazy that he has this team in a position to be in the playoffs again. No TJ Watt for most of the season, rookie QB, bad OL, lost Juju and sold off Claypool.

The man did this with Trubisky and Pickett at QB all year.

He’s a damn good coach

Not gonna disagree.

He turned this ship around and shocked me.

Agreed

All you can do is beat the teams on your schedule, but look at who the Steelers beat in this stretch:

Colts: 24-17
Falcons: 19-16
Panthers: 24-16
Raiders: 13-10
Ravens (sans Jackson): 16-13

This is what a rah rah coach can get you - your team will go out there and play hard, ugly things up and beat bad football teams.

But he still has significant tactical deficiencies. I think he's a solid coach who needs better coordinators but by no means a great one.

He had a decade with a roster full of HoF talents and a HoF quarterback in his prime and got next to nothing out of them despite the division being soft pretty much the entire time.

He's a high floor coach with an extremely low ceiling. In many ways, he's what Staley is likely to develop into. But if I'm looking for a HC to win me a SB rather than just sneak me into the playoffs, I think Staley's more likely to develop into that sort of guy than Tomlinson over the coming decade.

They had to deal with the Patriots though. They could never get over that Pats/Brady hump and it's tough to hold that against them.

But did the Patriots have more talent than the Steelers most of those years? I would say they didn't.

BB just outcoached him.

Which doesn't make Tomlin a bad coach - Belichick outcoached a lot of guys. But it's part of his resume nonetheless.

I think he's a fine coach, just not a great one.

Honestly the only one I think that he doesn’t consistently out coach is Reid.

If Tomlin went to the Chargers their D would be scary as ****.

Not sure what QB coach or offensive coordinator they would bring in.

With Pittsburgh overperforming this year, his chances of leaving are about 5%.

If they went say 6-11 or 7-10, which I expected it would have been much higher.

Great responses in this thread. :thumb:

Also, if the Cowboys get bounced in their first game, I think Sean Payton, Tomlin or another big name could be hired and they fire McCarthy.

And Reid/BB are the only 2 historically great coaches to come out of the last 25 years of NFL football, IMO.

The rest of these guys are just picking up scraps. BB and Andy are the defensive/offensive masterminds of this era, IMO.

I agree. After that tier though? He’s probably there. I think he’s done such a great job with limited resources and also what he has had to deal with (AB, Bell, Big Ben).

Remember this guy took this team to 8 wins when Big Ben was out all year. He did that with a CFL QB.

Agree, mostly.

The Ravens were pretty good during most of that stretch, but yeah, the Browns and Bengals were gimmes most of the time. But that's not necessarily unlike most of the divisions. Maybe they were a little worse, but most of the divisions aren't gauntlets.

And Brother****ing Cheatriot ****bags winning ****ing everything while Tomlin was in probably tempered his legacy a bit. And I assure you Belicheat was getting the signals for their defense, who especially early, was really ****ing good and Belicheat had no trouble scheming around, magically. If they got caught filming a 2 win Bengals team, he assuredly cheated to get the Steelers calls.

I think Tomlins capacity to coach headcases is a bit understated, probably.

But it is what it is. High floor low ceiling. But in 2023, it's important to not do something completely ass-tarded like the Staley's of the world.

I'd say so.

As of 1/2/2023, you can make a substantial case for Pete Carroll. But yeah, **** that shit, he's blown a MOUNTAIN of talent over the years. But holy ****ing balls EmbaRuss is real bad and making him look real good.

I think Shanarat Jr has a case. I think it will shake out to him offsetting his obvious genius with dumb****ery like hitching his ****ing wagon to Trey Lance after hitching his wagon to Garoppolo. But it's hard for me to discount what he's accomplished with the talent he had to do it with.

And I think history will look fondly on Harbitch. He won a Bowl with Flacco and then completely changed his entire team up for Jackson. They probably won't win anything with Jackson and if they let him walk that won't look good, but he's a good coach who did some really hard things.

Exactly. He's always been good, but this year has been outstanding.

Bengals with Marvin Lewis won the AFC North 4 times and made playoffs as wild card 3 other times.

Bengals did not win any playoff games, but with Harbaugh's Ravens winning AFC North 4 times and making playoffs as wildcard 5 times and having 11 total postseason wins. the AFC North may have been the least "soft" division of any of the AFC divisions since Tomlin has been head coach.

Tomlin has 7 AFC North titles and 3 wildcard teams and 8 postseason wins.

Bengals, Steelers and Ravens have all put dominant ass-whuppins on Chiefs since league went to 4 divisions.

After that tier? I'd probably put Carroll and Harbaugh ahead of him. What's interesting about Carroll is how much his image has improved despite a pretty mediocre season because of just how bad Russ has been. I don't know that was even necessary, though. Folks tend to forget that he was a solid HC even in NE before Brady and BB arrived. He was a solid bridge from Parcells (who seemed to be largely checked out) to BB and deserves more credit for that than he gets.

Harbaugh winning a SB with Flacco is awfully impressive, as is building a winner around a guy like Jackson, who couldn't be any different than Flacco.

McDermott may work himself into that second tier, McVay could do so as well if he hasn't already. Kyle Shanahan is in that 'not quite there but likely will be' group as well. Arians is a weird ****er but its hard to argue with his results. I think Payton's overrated but he did win a 'ship and oftentimes his team really did seem to be Drew and scraps.

So in this century you have 2 'top dogs' and maybe 8-10 'also of note' kind of guys. And in that tier I think Tomlin's pretty evenly situated among all of them. I don't know that any of them are clearly better or worse than he is. Those with his track record have similar/greater success than he had. Those with shorter track records seem on a path to surpass him. Hell, man - Doug Pederson REALLY has some nice stuff on his record. I'm not convinced he's not actually a pretty good coach. There's a non-zero chance I'd take Doug over Tomlin.

I just think we know what Tomlin is and it's...solid. Good, not great. I think he's the Alex Smith of quarterbacks. He'll make a bad team above average and he can make a great team...above average. A lot of teams are doing worse than him at HC, but I don't think he's a real difference maker for a championship caliber squad.

Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton winning the North 4 times kinda makes my point for me. Or losing the division to an offense built around Joe Flacco, a 30 yr old Anquan Boldin and a 36 year old Derrick Mason.

That's a division the Steelers, with Ben, Brown, Bell, Polumalu, Harrison, Heyward, Pouncey should've run. And since 2011 they have all of 3 playoff wins despite prime years from those guys in there.

I look at Reid absolutely OWNING his division for the last decade and see a 'great' coach. I see you making an argument that Tomlin couldn't do so and thus that demonstrates his greatness. That doesn't make sense to me.

Those were not great teams in the AFCN - and yet Tomlin couldn't consistently stand apart from them.

And his major play calling "dipsh*****y" like refusing to run the ball when the time calls for that for the win. He did that with the Falcons in the SB and lost, he did it against us in the SB and lost and yesterday he did it again with the Raiders and about turned the ball over with 40 seconds left in the game; calling a rollout pass when they are deep into Raiders territory, when all he had to do was call 2 running plays keeping the clock running and the ball in the middle of the field for an easy FG for the win. That rollout pass gets batted up in the air and you know John Lynch is still pulling out his "puckered butt" from that play still today.:D

I'd say no, generally, but the Steelers didn't have Tom Brady. I think he's the X Factor that Mahomes is for KC.

So rank the AFC divisions since 2002 and going to 4 divisions per conference from softest to hardest.

Seems to me that AFC North had more years with 3 above average teams in same year than any other AFC division since 2002.

AFC North has the most wildcard playoff teams of all 8 divisions since 2002.

I don't believe I made any comment about how Tomlin compares to any other coach, not sure why you are imagining some argument I did not state.

If Andy retired and you could pair him with a great OC, I'd take Tomlin as HC of the Chiefs in a heartbeat. Great leader of men.