Why do you use last names for everybody except the guys you obviously like? :D

Guys that don't play the WR position. I'm not reaching on someone just because the fan base thinks that we NEED to draft a WR in the 1st round.

I’m assuming guys that don’t play the wr position means de or dt? And the value for those positions is in the 2nd round and later. Why take one of those in the first when the value is in the 2nd?

All in on Watson, i think DJ is way off about this kid only being a track star/combine warrior.

The combine results only reinforce what you see in his highlights.

Picking a wr in the first is not based on NEED. It’s based on VALUE. The value for de & dt is in the 2nd. Big drop off for wrs in the 2nd.

Show me that value WR who is going to be there at 29.

And everyone wants to trade up for Jameson Williams. The guy who couldn’t beat out Wilson and Olave when he was at Ohio State? That guy? No thanks.

The second tier of wrs will be available at 29, Dotson, Pickens. Watson and etc. huge drop from mid to late first round guys like olave, jameson and burks.

Really?!? Jameson had almost 1600 yards in the sec and 15 tds. He was dominant! Are you kidding me? I can understand questioning his injury but saying he’s not talented bc Ohio state didn’t keep him is ridiculous.

Says who though?

I don't buy it.

I don't think that IS a huge drop, not at all.

He couldn’t beat out Wilson or Olave. If he’s some amazing talent…he would have had more than 100+ yards in either of his first two years.

Here's the thing, and I think a lot of people that don't pay a ton of attention pre draft every year don't get (in my opinion).

WR's aren't like franchise QB's, DE's, or LT's. Those guys you pretty much have to get in the first round with very rare exceptions, and generally high in the first. It's just rare to get an elite talent at those spots that falls. If they do, it's some character concern or something. (like Sam Williams, ahem).

Lots of top flight WR's are not former first rounders. Davante Adams? 2nd round, pick #53. Cooper Kupp? 3rd round #69. Deebo Samuel? 2nd round #36. Stephon Diggs was a fifth rounder! Like Tyreek.

It's not like taking a franchise QB. Half of this 'top tier' will wash out; and lots of these guys people want to say are a 'big drop off' will be much better NFL players.

And some of these guys that are too small, and too slow will be really good. I still wouldn't take Dotson in the first! :)

I know this is going to get people saying I'm nuts, but-

I don't see much difference in Jameson Williams and Pickens. I just don't.

I like the same things about both, and I have similar concerns injury-wise about both. Georgia WR's don't tend to be as NFL ready, but that's really not fair to say without knowing the individual.

I would take either at #29 if I really wanted them but I don't think I'd trade up for Williams when I can probably nab Pickens at #50. possibly later.

I like Pierce, and I like Watson. I'm warming up to Burks some.

I think we can get 'our guy' anywhere from 29 to the end of the second round, just depends who they want.

This is legitimate opinion but it’s all about probability or likelihood of success. Of course you can get a tyreek in the 5th, once every 10 years. But if you go back and look at drafts most of these picks are jags or busts and then a DK Metcalf hits big. That’s why so many of us are pounding the table for jameson bc his burst, change of direction and top end speed pop of the screen. You can see the fit with mahomes and the success of Bama wrs in the past with the training they have at bama and reasonable predict with a high probability that jameson is the next Dk metcalf kind of player from a production stand point for the chiefs.

Pickens on the other hand, just as a comparison, is not a good route runner, undisciplined and unpredictable, makes slow cuts, he has speed but it’s build up speed as a long strider and doesn’t have that turbo button to create separation. It’s hard for me to predict the same kind of success with Pickens. Could it happen, of course, but just trying to predict the highest likelihood. Jameson had 1600 yards and 15 tds in the sec for a reason. He’s electric and a great fit for the offense.

I think the one thing you're probably not getting from Williams onwards is burning speed. I'm really 50-50 on it, I'm coming round to the idea of sitting put, getting the guy that best fits as you say, and then maybe double-dipping in the 2nd. But I don't think you can wait for Pickens that long - if he's the guy it has to be at 30.

It's not really an opinion though. I just showed you in another thread some recent history of the hit rate in the 2nd being near identical to the first round for good receivers. It's a bad strategy to go up and get a WR just to get one in the 1st round. If a guy falls to you that you like, go ahead and take him. If one doesn't, you have a couple of shots in the 2nd as well. This is a pretty nice draft overall for WRs.

I'd say I'm 100% against the Chiefs moving up for a WR in the 1st if it costs more than a 3rd round pick and I would absolutely not do it for an injured player. WR is one of the highest bust positions in the draft. If you're going up for a guy, you better be as certain as you possibly can about the guy. An ACL tear brings an awful lot of uncertainty into the equation. You're far better having those 2 darts to throw at the position in all honesty. At least you have the opportunity to hedge your bets.

I agree with Crow.

And as for the speed being gone after the first, I haven't seen Pierce or Watson mocked all that often before the 2nd, and nobody's faster than those two guys.

I'm for taking at least one WR in this draft, and probably double dipping, and probably doing THAT early, in those first two rounds.

If we took two DL and two WR in the first four picks I'd be thrilled.

But after the last draft, I'm not going to complain until I see the product on the field.

Trading up for Williams would be a complete waste of resources.

Yeah, I mean-like I've said, if they do it I would be surprised. It doesn't seem prudent, and the Hill trade was all about being prudent, right?

I mean you could get a Pierce/Watson/Dotson/whoever you like plus a Sam Williams/Cam Thomas/whoever you like or you could trade up to get Williams who won't be much help in 2022.

It just doesn't seem prudent.

I know I said Olave is the guy that I would trade up for in another thread, but I have a hard time finding something I don't like about Watson.

For a guy who is a legitimate big and physical receiver to have the speed, quick twitch, and explosiveness he does is just really rare.

And he's not just a physical specimen. He runs good routes (because of that rare quickness), and he's physical.

He can do all the "big-guy receiver" things (high-point, back shoulder, wall off on slants/over the middle). But he can do "normal-guy receiver" things, too (double moves, multiple release, set up routes with foot work). And he has that rare explosiveness that will let him be a big-play threat, too.

If they take him with 29 or 30, I won't be surprised or complain. They could even move up a bit to nab him and I wouldn't be upset about it.

I could be wrong. We will see. I posted a long reasoning on why I think it’s worth it at the wr position in the mega thread. I’ll sum it up, over 95% of wrs drafted don’t become a wr2 or better in the first year. So, if you love a guy and he’s a fit and been developed by the best college for creating great wrs in the nfl recently, go get him. He also had almost 1600 yards and 15 tds in an injury shortened year in the sec. I believe Jameson’s skill set and preparation makes him a success and that higher probability is worth flipping a 3rd, 4th and 4th next year to move up 10 spots to get him if he’s there.

Exactly.

I like Watson’s athletic ability a lot also. His ability & testing numbers does show up on tape. Can he beat press from an nfl corner? Idk? Questions like that are why I like jameson. But I love Watson’s ceiling. I like him better than Dotson for sure.

well, here's the thing though-he's not likely to be 100% physically in enough time for him to put up WR2 numbers under any circumstances in 2022. Not in this offense. Which negates the whole argument.

Exactly.

When I objected to taking Williams, I was met with "it's a 10-month recovery that could probably be done in 8".

That's great until you consider that 8 months from now is the END OF NOVEMBER.

If you like the 5th year option and think you can redshirt him for a year, take him at 29.

Trading up should be absolutely off the board.

But the playoffs!!!!

Well my counter argument to that is that you have to qualify for the playoffs first.

Our division got SIGNIFICANTLY better this offseason by trading away picks and signing free agents.

We did the opposite and for that to work, we actually have to have picks to use in the draft.

Trading them away is not only counterproductive, it's counterintuitive. It would basically be doing what our AFCW foes are doing, only half-assed.

Oh I'm right there with you. The playoffs are going to be a fight this year....and expecting a WR with a torn ACL to magically come back and help you down the stretch after you traded away multiple draft picks to get him.....is a little ****ing dumb IMO.

How many NFL corners do you think Williams was facing in true press man, even at Alabama?

Watson performed well at the senior bowl, which featured a lot of future pros, and dominated his 1x1 reps.

Those future pros included:

Roger McReary
Zyon McCollum
Alontae Taylor
Coby Bryant
Mario Goodrich
Cam Taylor-Britt
Josh Williams
Mario Goodrich
Derion Kendrick

^ those are all guys expected to go by the end of day 2/beginning of day 3 in April.

Choir here. I love the kid.

I agree. I just watched that today. Watson is warming up to me. I saw his in season highlights and most of the time no one was near him. His speed and change of direction are real. He’s not just a combine warrior. that senior bowl video shows his quickness and long arms against the press. He’s got a lot of work to do but I like him a lot. I’m beginning to like picking him at 30 if burks and jameson are gone. I want a high ceiling, wr1 in this draft and Watson could be it. Watsons numbers and competition scared me initially.

Watson has never been pressed in any of the video I can find. He has free release to run by people and catch completely uncontested catches. I see zero contact as well. His resume is lean. He has straight line speed on his resume and a terrific combine showing (in shorts) . Neat.

Here ya go. Watson vs Press man,

https://youtu.be/GhGTJBg_XIQ

So we're watching a guy in shorts.

Again.

Definitely not an underwear warrior.

What's wrong with an underwear warrior? I think it sounds kinda sexy

Yeah I just don't see it. Don't think his releases are great, not particularly shifty, don't think he sets people up that well, his hands don't look anything special but not seen drops etc. I get it, he's big and fast, but isn't that what we have MVS for? Completely accept I may just be missing stuff but the more I look at WRs in this draft the less convinced I am.

I reckon Olave and Wilson have zero bust potential. London could end up being a limited miss-match/red-zone guy, Jameson could struggle with press, Burks could be a giant slug with those measurables...or they all could be superstars. Glad I'm not having to pick, I have an aneurysm just doing mock drafts.

Only WR under contract in 2023 is MVS, right?

Double dipping is probably a necessity.

Not so bad now that we have #29 as well.

Biggest bust potential for me is London. Dude refuses to run or do agility drills. Tape says 'contested catch guy', which is code for 'big and slow'.

Ready for your priority UDFA?

Jake Parker, WR, Howard Payne University.

Why you ask? He went to HS with Mahomes, was in his wedding and is now declaring for the draft. Apparently he’d been out of football for a couple of years before going to Howard Payne.

He’s the new Dieter.

This is how Dexter McClusters happen.

"Oh, well we have an extra pick, so its okay if we set one of them on fire..."

Reaching because you have another pick doesn't do anything to diminish the opportunity cost of any individual bad pick.

And Christian Watson in the first round would be a REALLY bad pick.

Man you are just ADAMANT.

LOL

comparing Watson, a 6'4" 210 lb. WR who runs a legit 4.3 and got a perfect 10 RAS score at the combine to McCluster (who made up for being tiny by also being slow) is nuts.

Look- you want to knock Watson over the strength of competition, that's understandable. You want to knock him for his stats-well, then you're not listening to what his situation with QB's was in college.

But the kid is a FREAK athlete. I mean, his ceiling is GENERATIONAL TALENT with that ability. His floor is probably lower than some others, but this is not Dexter McCluster, who didn't really do anything at all well, not even run fast.

And I'm not even saying we SHOULD take him at #30.

His potential floor worries me. Is it MVS, or is it lower? I don't know.

I like the kid, but I think Pierce is a similar guy, with a more proven track record, so to speak.

I don't know. But I won't be mad if Veach does take Watson at #30, it'll just mean that what my eyes told me was legit.

I can also see something like this:

29 and 30: DE and DT (Mafe or Williams paired with Travis Jones is my favorite grouping)

50: DE or CB (Cam Thomas sweet spot, Sam Williams potential spot, maybe one of the hybrid S)

TRADE UP from 62 into the mid-50s (would cost a 2023 4th, roughly) to take the WR they want. POtentially Christian Watson, potentially someone else.

I'm with Meck, though. If they take Watson, it means to me they are sold on his athletic ability and the rare quick twitch and explosion. There are guys that big and fast in the NFL (not a lot, but some). But for a guy to be that big and fast and ALSO have the agility and movement is rare, to me.

I think Marquez Valdes-Scantling is a solid floor for Christian Watson. He's going to be valuable at least to that level. Ceiling is high, though, as high as anyone in this draft class.

But here's my question - if you are an FCS coach and you have Randy Moss on your roster - You're not finding ways to get that guy the football every couple of plays?

The issue I have with his production isn't even that he didn't go off playing w/ substandard competition. It's that his coaches - the guys who saw him practice every day and play every weekend - didn't feel COMPELLED to force him the football.

Any swinging dick who's ever so much as watched a football game would know to get Megatron the football if he's playing against glorified High School talent. And yet these coaches didn't see a need to do so.

So either these are the dumbest human beings on the planet, or this guy ISN'T the football player some are claiming he is.

I'm not doubting things like the RAS score - because again, hell of an underwear warrior. I'm asking why this 'generational athlete' got 15 carries all season. Or why he wasn't getting 10 targets a game on bubble screens or quick slants. In a run-first offense, why not single-read RPO plays? Remember that year that Mizzou realized their WR room had fallen apart so they decided "Y'know what? This year our offense is going to be running the football and throwing it to Danario Alexander every play in 15 different ways..."

And that was against Division I competition and a guy who wasn't the 'freak' Watson is. Dude went for 1,800 yards when the 2nd leading receiving option on the team had 700.

His utilization, or lack thereof, against incredibly poor competition says something about who he is as an actual football player.

And yeah, I'm WHOLLY opposed to taking this guy in the first or even with the 50. I'd maybe consider him in the late 2nd and even that's not terribly likely.

Before he ran fast in track shorts this guy was a 3rd round pick by virtually every scouting service. Now we're in "talk ourselves into this guy" season and suddenly I'm supposed to act like Randy Moss 2.0 just got overlooked by his coaches in the FCS?

Eh. Not buying it.

If it came down to Burks or Watson in the 1st....I'm going Burks 10 times out of 10.

His floor is substantially lower. MVS is nearer his ceiling than his floor.

His floor is, I dunno, Matt Jones. And even that may be an oversell.

C'mon guys. Randy Moss went for 1,800 yards in his only year in college football. Calvin Johnson went for 1,200 at Georgia Tech.

Generational talents get the ball. No coach is so stupid as to not find ways to get the football to guys like that.

And Watson's coaches just didn't. That absolutely means something.

I'm probably going Sam Williams and Travis Jones at that point.

There's ZERO reason to hem ourselves into WR at the back end of the first. Absolutely none whatsoever.

I meant if those two were my options.

I'm on the Ojabo and Jones in the first train right now. Williams and Jones works as well.

I don't disagree with that at all.

i just think you've got a bad take on Watson.

So I ask again - a quick twitch monster with physicality and speed to burn. The agility to toast guys off the line and get clean releases....

....and he had 15 carries in the FCS?

If he is all that is being claimed, do you think his coaches are THAT stupid? Those guys who saw him every single day and didn't think "yeah, this guy needs a dozen touches/gm"?

Or maybe, just maybe, this guy who we've seen nothing but highlights of and some callisthenic exercises isn't quite as good a football player as is being indicated?

I will bet ANYTHING that he's closer to Matt Jones than Randy Moss.

I'm not the one with the bad takes here, fellas. It's the glowing praise over his generational ceiling that's over the top. I'm saying an FCS receiver w/ less than 1,000 scrimmage yards might be worth consideration at the end of the 2nd round. That's DAMN high praise and an acknowledgement of his athleticism.

Meanwhile there are guys in this thread saying he has potential HoF skills.

Who's really overplaying their hands here?

Build me a board where those are my options.

And I'll go find you 2 I like better.

Though I may be able to talk myself into Burks w/ the new focus on physicality we seem to be putting on the offense. I haven't really re-evaluated his fit here since the Hill trade and I should probably do that before I come with the same stance I had previously on him.

Plus all of the talk that he "looked good at the Senior Bowl".

In one on ones? You mean when it's pretty easy to make DBs look horrible if you have any kind of agility and speed?

I'd rather have Watson at 29 than trading up.

But there's a handful of guys I'd rather have at 29, too.

Okay, I don't get the Travis Jones love AT ALL.

He's a run plugger, he's not particularly explosive, he's just a big 'ole lump 'o dude there in the middle, a nose tackle, and I don't get it. AT ALL.

Wyatt I get; his athleticism projects in a way that he might well be a better pro than he was a college player.

hell, I get Winfrey.

I DO NOT get Jones, and I would NOT take Jones over taking a big swing on a kid like Watson. If THAT is what you want to spend a first on, I think you're bonkers.

I remember playing 3-person football as a kid when we couldn't get enough guys together for a decent game.

Rotating QB and you lined up on the other guy.

Man, if you got defended you SUCKED. Because it's freakin' 1 on 1 and you know where you're going while the other guy's just trying to react.

1v1s mean very very little, especially if it's the WR winning. Now if the DB is locking a guy up, that's impressive as hell.

But the drill is set up where the WR SHOULD win the rep and damn near every time.

I could possibly be talked into Burks if he's the best option at 29 or 30...but I'm pretty much out on WR in the 1st at all.

I'd say you're the hyperbolic one; I'm looking at the kid as early as #50 but not advocating we take him in the first. I said if Veach does that, it means they've done their homework and he's THEIR GUY, and if that's so, so be it.

You're comparing him to McCluster and Todd what's his ****. Like that's just...insane. Not even remotely the same kind of athlete. Not even close.

He's a rare raw animal. Sky really is the limit. of course, he also might suck.

we can debate whether the risk is worth it, but I'm saying at #50 that's worth it to me. That's all. meanwhile, you want to take a run stuffing DT in the first round that projects as a decent nose tackle. So whatever.

Among DTs he's in the 88th percentile in the 40, 77ths in the broad, 80th in the 3-cone.

You want to cite Christian Watson's athleticism at the combine then ignore the fact that Jones out-tests Leonard Williams literally across the board? Bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more fluid.

I mean the board will dictate a lot of things. But even in an absolute worst case scenario circumstance, I wouldn't be taking Watson. He's nowhere close to my top 30 prospects. As I said previously he's maybe around my top 50 and even that is pushing it.

Jones is at that threshold level. It's close.

I came around late on Burks, but watching his tape I just keep seeing AJ Brown. And while that's more like a really good complimentary WR in my book, I think he translates to the NFL game, so I'd probably do it along with a DE.

And I'd STILL take a Watson/Pierce/Moore/Pickens/Tolbert someone else in round 2 or 3.

from NFL.Com:

Nose tackle with size and power that fuels his rumbling playing style. Jones lacks explosive get-off and hand twitch. He's unlikely to be a quick-win defender, but the anchor and upper-body power are present for gap-control duties once he gets his footwork and hand usage schooled up. He was a standout on a bad defense and more than held his own against the toughest competition he faced. Jones has the demeanor, traits and overall ability to become a successful run-plugger and potential starter in a two-gapping scheme.

That's not very exciting for a first rounder.

All I know at this point is that the draft can't get here soon enough. I'm about burnt out on discussing it. :D

And here's Christian Watson's.

He plays hard and fast but needs to add a few more pounds and learn to impose his frame on the coverage. He's a field-stretching option requiring a linear route tree and projects as a capable WR3/4 with more work.

Not limited to 1x1s, though.

He was widely regarded as having been the best receiver at the draft, and reports from people on the ground had him handling all types of coverage well.

That roster included a lot of other WRs we have talked about... Alec Pierce (who reportedly struggled with initial separation), Calvin Austin, Velus Jones, Tre Turner, noticeably.

That separates him a little, for me, from the guys in that tier.

and yet, showed elite agility in combine tests, with top rated 3 cone. So no, I don't think so.

Same 20 yard shuttle time and better 40 time than Poe.

Would you question Poe's get-off?

I've always thought broad jump was an excellent indicator of lower body explosion. Remember how we fawned over Poe's? Jones was 5 inches BETTER.

I'll acknowledge that Watson is a hell of an athlete - the numbers clearly support it. The numbers also clearly support that Jones is a well above average athlete, bordering on a great one, for a DT.

I get not liking Watson's tape but how many guys that have come out in the last few years have had one of the highest RAS scores in 2 decades?

Okay.

So we're going to ignore Watson's scouting report and stand on his combine tests.

And ignore Jones combine tests while standing on his scouting report?

Feels like you're REALLY picking your spots here...

No I'm just pointing out that you've developed an irrational viewpoint when in reality you've said you might take Watson at #62. I'd take him at 50. So all this hyperbole is nonsense.

How's he compare to someone like, I dunno, Stephen Hill. Robert Davis. Javon Walker?

If we want to start talking about ceilings, lets at least be reasonable and talk about a dude like Walker. But Walker at least produced out of FSU with very similar measurables to Watson.

Except everyone is talking about taking him at 29 or 30.

Where's the irrational part?

Hell, where's the hyperbole?

That's one view of him.

The breakdown from the Draft Network is really detailed and worth reading (this includes them having eyes-on looks at him at the Senior Bowl).

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/c...son/9ZZDrHRkOk

Their summary is:
Christian Watson is a very good athlete with good speed, agility, and excellent body control. For a taller receiver, he is surprisingly dynamic and displays the ability to consistently win against man coverage. In the passing game, he is extremely tough to cover. He can defeat press with foot quickness and has surprisingly good vertical speed. His home-run speed threatens a defender's cushion quickly. He does a good job of dropping his weight while displaying the separation quickness at the top of the route. He has a very good catch radius and is a matchup problem in contested-catch situations. He can contort his body to make tough catches and is dynamic with the football in his hands. In the NFL he is an outside receiver who projects with very good ability in the kicking game both as a returner and a core special teamer.

His agility also shows up in the way he moves after the catch. It's not just combine/workout stuff. He's a super fast guy (rocket up his butt, to borrow a term) who ALSO makes people miss with elusiveness (jukes, change-of-direction) and power (stiff arms and running through weak arm tackles).

I was just pointing out that using NFL.com's draft profile to shoot down one player when NFL.com has the same shit about the other player isn't that great of an argument.

Here's Jones' report from the same website.

Travis Jones had offers from Boston College, Temple, Rutgers, and Buffalo but chose to stay close to home and play his college football at UConn where he developed into a highly-regarded team leader. Jones arrived on campus at 360 pounds with 30% body fat but has since dropped 30 pounds and reduced his body fat percentage to 13%. While Jones profiles best to a 1-technique/nose tackle role that provides most of his value on running downs, he is a terrific athlete for his size and has found ways to apply consistent pressure on the quarterback despite all of the challenging dynamics to consider within the Huskies defense. Jones is a stout run defender that frequently resets the line of scrimmage and is unselfish in how he takes on blocks, eats space, and keeps the second level clean. He is a strong processor against the run that is rarely out of his fit. As a pass rusher, Jones is an excellent pocket pusher that has active hands and the ability to power through rush angles. There are plenty of reasons to believe that under better circumstances and given his unique physical skill set and body transformation that he will be an even better pro than college player. He should immediately make an NFL run defense better and make the unit more stout.

What do you mean by "Produced?"

Walker had 932 yards and 7 TDs his last year at Florida State, accounting for 32 percent of their passing yards.

Watson had 900 yards and 7 TDs this year, accounting for 35 percent of passing yards.

Gotcha.

Personally, these are two guys that I really like as fits for the Chiefs. If the Chiefs draft includes both in its top 4 picks, I'd consider that to be a very successful one.

I meant produced similarly. Again emphasizing the disparity in the quality of competition.

would I take Poe over a swing at a potentially great WR? NOPE.

If the guy's a piece of shit underwear warrior and a huge mistake at 30, and a laughable reach at 50, but you might take him at 60? And you'd take a space eating DT at 30 instead?

I mean, come on man.

well, I don't know about EVERYONE.

I'd take him at 50.

What I'm getting at is an attitude of 'THIS KID SUCKS, HE'S TERRIBLE, HE'S TOTAL SHIT AND WOULD BE A HUGE MISTAKE AT 3O! But I might take him at 62.

I mean, come on man.

It's hyperbole. It's irrational.

You might feel like 30 is a reach, but it's not absurd. Hell, I think it's a reach, and I like the kid.