I can appreciate the questions about the draft and do we trust the Veach/Reid team of being able to draft a WR or DE.

Brett Veach is only 44 years old and has only served in the role of GM since the middle of 2017. I think he has made some mistakes in the past but has learned from that.

In Breeland Speaks (2018 draft), Brett fell in love with a defensive lineman that was able to stay on his feet. Breeland was 6-3, 285 pounds and was not strong and powerful or fast and explosive. Speaks struggled with the Chiefs and then with the Raiders, Cowboys, Giants, and Bills.

The Mecole Hardman 2019 draft happened at the same time as Tyreek Hill's domestic issues were going on. Mecole was fast, elusive, and could return punts and kickoffs as well as be a receiver. People want more from Hardman, but he has helped the Chiefs and will probably be even better in this coming season.

Brett Veach is learning and growing, and this 2022 draft will be even better.

I know DE & WR are the sexy pick but I want us to beef up the D line even with our top two picks or trade up get a DE or DL but we need guys that can get penetration up front and win in the trenches.


I don't think we are talking DL enough and I'd like to know thoughts who we could get or what can we do to make an impact player on our front line next to Jones

You're not wrong about the market being high, but I disagree about the market aligning with what MVS received.

Rashard Higgens has had similar production in Cleveland and signed with Carolina for vet minimum. The same goes for James Washington signing in Dallas. Neither of those guys are as fast nor had quite the explosive plays but overall they had very similar production on the whole. Cedrick Wilson signed with Miami for less and had way better production last year in Dallas. DJ Chark signed a one-year deal for $10 million and is 10x more productive in his career.

I feel like Veach may have got hosed. I truly hope I'm wrong on MVS and he earns that check. He's been less productive than Pringle and he had Aaron Rodgers at QB, so really there aren't many excuses for him. At over 8 million per season in cash costs, he better step his game up big time. I don't know, we'll have to see the product on the field with Mahomes in this offense.

“DJ Chark signed a one-year deal for $10 million and is 10x more productive in his career”

10x more huh? That’s beyond hyperbole.

DJ Chark: 4 seasons 2,042 yards 15 TDs

MVS: 4 seasons 2,153 yards 13 TDs

Don’t get me wrong, I’d prefer Chark as well, but he was signed before Tyreek was traded.

When you realize that nobody has more 40+ yard receptions since 2018 than MVS other than Tyreek Hill, it’s really not difficult to understand why they went out and signed him when they did.

It is hyperbole but Chark did do the bulk of that damage in 2 seasons (126 rec 1,714 yds 13 TDs). Injuries are the reason Chark hasn't become a star. MVS has never looked anywhere near as good as healthy Chark. And you're right though, Chark was like the 1st WR signed in FA. It still shows market value though and we both know Chark has been a lot better when healthy than MVS and it isn't very close. The problem to me is MVS got a contract nearly as high as Chark's in the 1st year. I am hoping he breaks out here, he'll never have a better opportunity.

Yes, Chark has been the better player when healthy. But that is also part of the equation in terms of the contract he got. Let’s not pretend that he wouldn’t have gotten 17+ per if he weren’t coming off a serious injury with concerns about his availability.

Also, Chark was one of the very few bargains at WR this year. He was an anomaly in this WR market.

Sure he can't, but he can put up a mountain of points that puts excessive pressure on the opposing QB and requires them to be perfect. I can see your logic. My perspective is I'd rather ask their QB to be perfect to keep up, rather than ask our QB, as great as he is, to continue to be perfect.

I don't really understand your position on DBs. My understanding was you've been happy with us devoting little resource to it, a position I've come round to.

What do we know about this team? The coaching unit can develop DBs (or at least CBs) to an extent that high draft picks, cap space and trades etc are less essential there. We have a young LB group that has shown a lot of potential and has improved and is currently cheap. We have QB that with elite receiving options is very hard to stay with. We have a DL that is absolutely pathetic.

The gamble you're taking is that Mahomes can continue to make average players great and a better DL gives him back the ball a lot more, my gamble is that continuing to patch up a DL and pair with an elite receiving core is preferable.

I'll quibble with you a bit here.

The problem with MVS, and the reason he got a nice deal, is that at times he HAS looked that good.

He's just such a high variance player. He can look like a potential superstar one game and a training camp cut the next. And ultimately I'm of the mind that this sort of thing stabilizes after about 50 NFL games so I think there's a pretty good chance that this is just who MVS is.

But you can actually see some real stud potential in there. There isn't a raw tool he doesn't have. Even the hands thing is overblown and based largely on one god-awful season when he clearly had a mental block (same thing Cooper went through like 4 years ago).

I think the deal is about 20% too high. And yeah, I'd have preferred Chark over MVS. But the MVS deal does have some potential upside baked into it that the Chark deal doesn't. He doesn't have to take much of a step forward to be worth next year's cap figure and hell, it's possible that year 3 figure is in play if he just finds some chemistry with Mahome.

Whereas if Chark plays well, he's going to FA. Or getting the tag.

I was hopeful the whole offseason that Veach would go out there and find young veteran players who are undervalued and sign them to 3-4 year deals with some escape hatches and MVS fits that profile perfectly. So does Reid. So does ****ing Kyzir White but we don't talk about Kyzir White.

There's a clear logic to taking MVS at 3 years over Chark at 1 and it's a logic I can get behind.

Because it's an easy analogue for comparison's sake. Like you, I'm far more concerned with the DL. But when I'm trying to make a demonstration, I'm going to try to compare apples/apples and when comparing Patricks impact on the offense w/ his relative inability in directly impact the defense, talking secondaries is the cleanest way to do it.

If MVS does enough to want to keep him, that deal will look like a steal in 2023.

Multiple teams wanted MVS. No one wanted the dudes you listed.

Beyond that, MVS' contract is nothing. If they ditch him after year 2 it's 2/18, which is ****ing nothing in this day and age. Are people really so out of touch with contracts in the NFL these days?

When Christian Kirk is getting $18m/year with term, or a rapist out of football for a year is getting $230m guaranteed, how the heck are people worrying about a 2/18 deal for a young, high-upside player.

It can even be treated as a 1/9 deal, with a marginal cap hit. If things go THAT bad. Which they won't. Dude, if the Bills want to move on from Von in a couple years, when he's 35, they'll have a 20m cap hit. That's the type of deal worth worrying about.

I guess that makes sense. Imo If PM is a force multiplier as you say, and the most significant one on this team, then you give him the best opportunity to multiply resources to the greatest extent. Is any force multiplier on the DL going to be more impactful than QB?

...it's also possible I'm confusing myself talking about force multipliers and that Frank Clark has just made me never want to invest significant money in the DL ever again. Anyway, we disagree I guess.

Would you trade 30 for Montez Sweat?

{sigh}

No I would draft well and then sign that mother****er next March in FA

They're trading one of those picks for a DE. You guys may as well prepare for it.

Who?

He's been saying Josh Allen for a while now.

Pretty terrible attempted dig to call me out of touch with contracts.

It's debatable whether or not MVS was in "more demand" than the receivers I listed. You have absolutely no way of knowing that. My point is simple, those receivers, with around equivalent production, have signed for far less.

While some have been signed in line with their actual ability and production, there are a few outliers like Kirk, MVS, and Zay Jones. That doesn't mean the entire market has gone reeruned. Yes, the market is getting more expensive and especially so at the top. Veach, in my opinion, overpaid for what he's getting in lieu of getting a better bargain. Now, that could absolutely work out but let's not pretend he didn't have an equivocally good QB throwing him the football in a similar offense.

Christian Kirk at 18 per actually makes more sense to me than MVS at 10 per. Kirk is younger, has produced more and appears to be on the ascent. I don't think Kirk should be making that either and that the Jags overpaid but Kirk undoubtedly had suitors.

Either way, the only thing we can do is hope he works out and applaud Veach if it does. If it doesn't, well, I'm very prepared for that.

I'd love trading for Josh Allen if it's for a 3rd rounder or even a conditional 2nd rounder next year. No way am I giving up a #1 or even a #2 this year.

Yeah because I’m sure the Jags are good with that.

Why would the Jags trade Josh Allen, for starters, and then why would they do it for a late 2nd or 3rd? No way that happens. If they take Hutchinson, they'll have a really good duo of pass rushers to build that team around.

Because he's an underperforming 1st round pick with 1 year remaining on his rookie contract? And if they draft DE, they are heavy at the position.

I keep hearing about packaging 29 and 30 to move up and I’ve gotta say I think that would be a big mistake. I understand big time players win games but goddamn man. Most of the best playmakers in this league are not high picks.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#chiefs</a> now have 12 picks in the draft. What are they going to do with them? <a href="https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@baldyNFL</a> believes, and I completely agree, they can be bold and go after certain players with all this ammo. My report on NFL NOW on <a href="https://twitter.com/nflnetwork?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@nflnetwork</a> <a href="https://t.co/rOy5aCt69S">pic.twitter.com/rOy5aCt69S</a></p>&mdash; James Palmer (@JamesPalmerTV) <a href="https://twitter.com/JamesPalmerTV/status/1514365968272834567?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 13, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I believe I saw a post somewhere about them possibly being able to package one of 29/30 and also 50 to move up in the first. If they see someone available around middle of the first I could see that being a worthwhile trade. Then maybe try to trade back down from the other 1st to regain an additional 2nd/3rd. I’d like to see some moving around in the draft, both up and down, with all these picks.

Underperforming? At what point?

He had 10.5 sacks as a rookie. He had 71 tackles and 7.5 sacks last year. He got hurt in 2020 had 2 sacks in the first 4 games, tried to come back after missing 2 games for 4 games then landed on injured reserve. So taking the injured year out he's been anything but underperforming.

Just because a guy doesn't get 15 sacks doesn't make him shit.

And how would they be heavy at the position? Who else do they have that's worth a shit at DE? Arden Key and K'Lavon Chaisson are rotational players.

I'm not really sure where to find this kind of search, but according to Nate Taylor, the last teams to trade multiple first round picks in the same draft class to move up were the Jets and the Saints in 2003.

With the first rounders acquired, they selected Dewyane Robertson and Jonathan Sullivan respectively.

Man, if that doesn't demonstrate how much of a crapshoot this exercise is, I don't know what would. Those are both catastrophic outcomes. And fellas, it just isn't that unlikely to happen at all.

Do you guys remember that draft at all? DTs had become hot shit (remember the ill-fated Ryan Sims pick the year prior? Henderson, Bryant, Haynseworth all went in the first that year; Gerard Warren, Damione Lewis, Marcus Stroud, Ryan Pickett, Casey Hampton in the first the year prior).

And suddenly in 2003 we had league circles convincing themselves that coincidentally, 2003 would be the best DT class in years. Jimmy Kennedy, Kevin Williams, Dewayne Robertson, Jonathan Sullivan, William Joseph, Ty Warren - all potential franchise altering DT talents. And suddenly the Jets and Saints convince themselves that they need to move up so they can take the cream of the crop.

One of 'em lived up to the hype - Kevin Williams at 9. Warren was good at 13 (the pick that the Jets traded away along with 22 to move up to 4). And the rest? Various degrees of gigantic busts. Aubrayo Franklin went in the 5th and was the third best DT to come out of that draft.

But the Saints and Jets had a similar mindset to what we're seeing with this 'we have to trade up to get our guy!!!' crowd. They were unwilling to be patient and let the board come to them. They thought they had this whole draft thing figured out and it was some sort of exact science.

It wasn't. It isn't. They were wrong as ****. The Saints even gave up back to back picks at 17 and 18 (where the Cardinals took Calvin Pace who was again one of the better players from that draft).

It's just a real real REAL bad idea. Trade up to 21 using a 3rd? I can get behind that; it's a reasonable risk/reward. But when you decide you're going to give up 2 firsts just to move up another dozen spots or so? Aw hell no.

This is still the same front office that drafted Breeland Speaks, Mecole Hardman and CEH with their first pick in a 3 year stretch. They're a very smart front office and have a better chance of being right than most - but still a pretty decent chance of being wrong. So no, that's not a worthwhile trade-off. It's just way too many eggs in a single basket.

I never thought there was a chance of trading both 1st rounders to move up. I could see them trading up with one of their 1sts and a 2nd/3rd/etc. I also think it's very possible for them to trade up with one pick to the early 20s and back with the other 1st rounder to recoup some of the earlier trade.

The time it happened before that was Washington trading 12 and 24 to go to 3 in 2000 to pick Chris Samuels who turned out to be a 6-time Pro Bowl LT, so there's at least one example of it actually working out.

I'm pretty sure the next nearest that it happened was in 1992 when Washington, again, traded 6 and 28 to go to 4 for Desmond Howard who was a phenomenal return man but never turned out to be a very good WR.

So yeah, probably not the "greatest" idea in the world. I think the Saints will be involved in one of them again this year to move up for Pickett but who knows for sure.

I don't expect Veach to be one to do it. I'd expect a move up with 29 and maybe a 2nd rounder but both 1st seems very unlikely. He'd have to be pretty enamored with an ER in the top 10 to pull something like that.

You're trading all that to go up and pick the 3rd best DE or the best WR in a class of WR's that are all bunched together.

No thanks.

Like, the idea that Jermaine Johnson could clearly never be Jonathan Sullivan is just incorrect.

Jonathan Sullivan is EXACTLY what happens when teams do this sort of thing. When they go from 'we like this guy to he slides' to 'we HAVE to have this guy' over the span of 2 months with zero games played.

And Jonathan Sullivan was a 325 lb dude running the 40 in 5 flat a time that just did not happen. There were more reasons to believe he'd be a star than there are reasons for Jermaine Johnson.

Look at the guy's 2002 season -- 74 tackles, 18.5 tackles for loss, 29 QB pressures, first team All SEC. He was a HORSE. And he just sucked.

Trade two firsts to go up for the Oregon DE if he falls? Maybe. Probably not.

As much as you guys hate it, I'd think youd all agree it would be a much better idea to trade one of those firsts and pay an established DE than trade both to go up and take a WR.

Say, 29 50 and 104 gets you to 14?

Exactly.

Stay put.

No.

Don't trade at all. It's just asking for a Frank Clark situation.

I'm less convinced that Jermaine Johnson will eat himself out of the league. Everything is not equivalent.

Yup.

The worst thing the Frank Clark trade did was establish where we value him BEFORE we sat down for contract discussions.

You give up first for someone looking at FA and that agent has you over a barrel.

Whereas with OBJ we gave up a small enough amount that we could even let him walk for a comp pick and done just fine in that deal.

That just isn’t going to be the case in the deals O.Simpy is suggesting.

By God, I think he’s got it!!

And he lost it…

One of the most aggressive GM's in the league and you guys think he's gonna sit tight and draft.

Cute.

I really like staying with the draft picks we have and drafting.

But, I agree with you. Brett Veach won't stay put.

This isn't about what he will do. It's about what he should do.

Which is sight tight and draft BPA.