The problem is the man responsible for drafting Hardman and CEH early in the draft. This team with McLaurin and Tee Higgins would be dangerous. Both were well known talents before the draft so it’s not a “hindsight is 20/20” kind of thing. Anyone on this forum could have picked those two just by reading a draft magazine.

So two late 2nd picks that haven't panned out, a slow brokedick from Pitt (who replaced him with actual young talent) MVS, part of last year's "Aaron Rodgers has no receivers" brigade and a 5th string from Tampa.

It's ****ing thrash.

Some of us KNEW it was trash from the get go.

But that was always the way it was supposed to be.

Three years ago Mahomes was on his rookie deal and we had just started paying Hill real money and still had the high value Watkins contract.

Fast forward and we've finally traded Hill for picks and cap space, Watkins rolled off, and we replaced them with JuJu, MVS, and two 2nd round picks. Not to mention also signing the most expensive guard on the market, trading a high pick for a LT, and drafting a center in the 2nd round.

We've invested plenty for Mahomes to succeed and the idea that we should focus on premium WR talent - rather than taking fliers on guys with upside - given the going rate just isn't tremendously realistic when building a complete team. Mahomes should be good enough to elevate talent.

We just traded Hill this offseason. What would you have done immediately to have replaced that production? And please keep in mind the other holes it would open up on the team while answering.

I think it was also a week 3 "dont' show much, get a win and get out of town" kind of thing.

FLukey shit happens in a football game. Move on.

This, took the words right out of my mouth.

Nailed it.

No, no it's not.

Mahomes was at his PEEK when he had premium talent to throw the ball to. Watch Herbert and Allen and those guys have dudes who make plays for their QB.

At some point Chiefs kingdom convinced themselves that Mahomes has to stay in the pocket. (NOT what made him special). That Mahomes has to play in the structure of the offense. (NOT what made him special). That Mahomes has to be this dink and dunk QB because apparently we're incapable of anything else. (NOT what made him special).

Everyone convinced themselves that if you give Mahomes an army of Albert Wilson's he'll do the rest!

If you're going to spend money on everything but WR then you had better draft well. And well....they haven't draft worth a shit at WR.

Sorry but I'm not seeing it.

Moore had a few bobbles/misreads on punts prior to the game. Some have mentioned it in previous threads even before yesterdays disaster.

He's not looked comfortable returning at all thus far, IMO. If you want him on KRs to get some experience and get a feel for the speed of the NFL - sure, that's fine.

But you can't have a skittish returner on punts. It put 7 points on the board AND killed the next offensive possession. That's a big big problem and I don't think it was nearly as unforeseeable as you do.

I am of two minds on this issue.

First of all, I think I'd agree with you in normal circumstances. I think the Chiefs came in trying to keep their cards close to their chest for the Bucs, and should have won the game if it wasn't for uncharacteristic flukes like the Jones penalty, the Moore muff, multiple kicks missed, and Kelce dropping a TD. So, no, this game won't cost us the Super Bowl.

But this is the hardest schedule I can ever remember the Chiefs having. We have Tom Brady and the Bills in weeks 4 and 6. It's a murderer's row; we need to win all the "winnable" games, and they screwed that up today.

CEH just needs to be done. You can’t tell me that he’s somehow better than any of the other 3 RBs on this roster at this point.

They haven't thrown enough at it. Period.

No ****ing excuse to have a QB like Mahomes and have what might be the worst WR room in the league.

I’ve noticed the team’s plans seem to be genius when we win and stupid when we lose.

It’s Week 3. We don’t know what we don’t know at this point.

Way too early to throw the bust label on Moore. Tyreek Hill had 6 catches for 43 yards after 3 games in his career. He won’t be Tyreek obviously, but it’s too early to judge.

Also, this coaching staff will absolutely play the guys they trust. For better or worse. Hell, how long did it take the staff to start taking snaps away from Sorensen last year?

They’re going to need to do more coming up because right now we don’t really have shit next year.

They’ll probably keep Watson on another smaller deal but they’ll have to make a decision about MVS. And honestly he’s not earning that right now.

That's all fine and dandy, but if he gets a better feel for PRs, he gives you the highest ceiling.

The problem with yanking him off them is putting someone else there. Who do you put there that gives you what Moore does, if Moore can get the skill down? It's unclear to me, because Hardman is no good either.

I'm fine with the itchy trigger fingers on Pacheco at KR, because Hardman's good there.

I suppose McDuffie returned punts at training camp, but he's not coming down the mountainside for a few more weeks.

Well, if Mahomes is the QB we all think and is getting paid what he is....well, make it work?

And as far as Skyy is concerned, spare me the "Reid doesn't play rookies" bullshit.

They're starting a goddamn 7th round draft pick as a boundry corner (as a backup to yet another rookie starter) and we have a rookie DE gobbling up snaps over vets like Dunlap.

If Skyy Moore could show play making ability in camp/practice, his ass would be on the field.

It's not like the team is loaded with talent in front him.

He didn’t return punts in college right? I’m really not a fan of having a second round pick out there in meaningful games trying to learn how.

Ask Aaron Rodger how many SB's that strategy helped him win.

It's ****ing dumb. What's insane to me is that when we signed Watkins the whole damn fan base was on board with the concept that you load your franchise QB with premium skill position talent and we DON'T do what GB and NE does. Even ****ing Veach was on record saying that.

...and here we are. Convincing yourselves that it's a solid strategy....crazy, man.

I think we sometimes overestimate the difficulty of finding a 2nd/3rd day WR.

Kupp, Godwin, Kirk, Gallup, Sutton, Gage, Chark, AJ Brown, Metcalf, Deebo, McLaurin, Diontae Johnson, Renfrow, Higgins, Pittman, Claypool, Mooney, Gabriel Davis, St. Brown - these are all quality young WRs taken in the 2nd round or later over the last few years.

Give us 2 of those guys and everything is much MUCH different in our WR room.

I don't think you NEED a true #1 to have an excellent passing game. But you need 3 quality WRs if you don't have one and right now I'm not seeing one.

No he didn't. And he's not exactly this crazy shifty game breaker either. And yeah, he has looked hesitant this entire time fielding kicks. You can tell he's not a natural at it.

And all it took was one **** up for him to go completely shell shocked on the next attempt.

MVS is under contract next year, for better or worse. He’s all we have besides Moore and Ross.

I mean, sure.

Then you have to win games 44-41 cause your defense is in the trash.

Again, that was great as he was young and learning. But he's the half billion dollar QB. They've invested heavily on the OL, the TE makes alot of money, and they've thrown things at the WR spot (last minute with the Tyreek thing).

What are you suggesting?

I mean if that's what you think, you' haven't been paying much attention.

There HAVE been people trying to ring alarm bells regarding the WR room, the running game and some of our recent draft choices.

This isn't purely hindsight.

They can cut him after this year and only take a $4 million dead cap hit. Right now....he's not looking like he's worth keeping around.

It’s a great strategy. The problem is execution. They aren’t ignoring weapons for Patrick. They spent a 1st on CEH, 2nd on Hardman and 2nd on Skyy.

CEH and Hardman suck. That’s the problem. Skyy is TBD but struggled yesterday.

It’s not bc of ignoring weapons or for a lack of trying

Up to this point Veach has not demonstrated the ability to secure WR talent.

Yeah, whatever, flame me all you want for saying something negative about Veach. But show me the goddamn receipts. It's been miss after miss after miss.

First, I would argue Mahomes was at his PEEK when he had a good OL and defenses didn't know how to defend him or the Chiefs offense.

Second, the overwhelming majority of Chiefs fans never convinced themselves that Mahomes needed to stay in the pocket. We all know Mahomes is at his best when he's making plays off platform.

As for the idea that Chiefs fans all thought Mahomes could make Albert Wilson into Jerry Rice, I was a person who never bought the narrative that a stable of WRs could come close to replacing what Hill provided. That said, I acknowledged that it was certainly worth a shot given that we didn't have a great deal of other options at that point (I'm still waiting for you to tell me we should've traded a 1st and probably more for McLaurin or AJ Brown). And through 3 games, we have one amazing performance and 2 very lackluster performances. But I also think the OL has done him no favors at all and we've seen him struggle in the past when he doesn't trust his protection.

So is your problem the Hardman draft pick and writing Sky Moore off after 3 games? Or are you just criticizing the trade of Hill? The team always wanted to have Hill and JuJu as their primary wideouts. Should we have force JuJu at gunpoint last offseason?

And does the fact that we have the best pass catching TE in the NFL lessen the need to have the most dynamic WRs in the game? Absolutely. And will that change as Kelce becomes less productive? Also absolutely.

Yep. It's a crazy strategy that does not work.

I don’t think that’s the intended strategy. Veach has invested high picks on offense, the problem is they have all been shit (verdict is still to be determined on Moore).

A) That's a MASSIVE 'if' you're putting in there. You think his college coaches didn't try him out returning punts? If he wasn't doing it in college, there's a reason for it.

B) I don't even see the 'high ceiling' you're referencing. He's not an open field burner, he's not a physical presence. He's a poor man's Dante Hall and Hall was a once in a generation sort of guy because of his comfort level and vision back there. The vast majority of guys that try to return like Dante Hall end up returning like De'Anthony Thomas.

The right answer is Hardman. He has genuine upside at the position. Plenty of experience with it. And he's just going to be safer back there. I don't see anywhere near the upside necessary to justify the risk. It's already cost us a game - you think he's gonna win us two at some point? I damn sure don't.

But hey, at least he can find a center and guard, two of the least impactful positions on a roster.

They traded down and drafted Skyy when they had better options on the table. They probably shoulda just taken the bigger, faster talents, i'd say.

Same can be applied to the DK/Hardman situation. By all accounts, DK would've been the perfect fit for Mahomes. This was something that felt OBVIOUS leading up to the draft. How the **** does that not happen?

They and the fans have this mindset that Mahomes will just make it all work. Everyone will be great!

Have great WR's but OL sucks "gotta draft OL"

Build great OL "Wr's can't get open".

I forget CP is CP sometimes.

Hardman's only issue, that I can recall, is that he sometimes calls for fair catches inside the 10. I can live with that if he's breaking off long punt returns. I've yet to see Moore do anything back there that would tell you he excels at it.

Dude....this is a reeruned take.

JFC dude maybe give Skyy more than 3 games into his rookie season before saying shit like this?

I can see Overreaction Planet is in full effect today. I'm just going to stay away this week.

When the Hill trade was done, I believed that this was to build for the future. Well, the future isn't the present and I'm going to have to learn to be patient. The immediate success has spoiled me and my expectations are out of line with reality.

I also believe that some of this has gone to the heads of the players and coaching staff. That they are good enough to just put anyone out there and Patrick will make them the next star.

Patrick and Reid are becoming somewhat predictable and teams are learning to exploit that tendency. Maybe some of the warts that scouts saw in Patrick are coming to the surface now that teams force him to throw short passes and take away what he wants to do.

The best way to break down an opponent is to take away what they do best. Force them to do what they don't want to do. It looks like teams are doing that to the Chiefs and the Chiefs keep being a hammer so everything is a nail.

I’d prefer a more conservative approach to special teams overall, but that clearly isn’t going to happen with Toub.

With that in mind, put the guy back there who gives you the best chance for a big return. That guy is Hardman.

If we’re going this route (which I don’t like), then go with the guy with the upside.

He's spewing his reeruned takes all over the place since the game yesterday.

Toub needs to go after this year. I don't give a shit anymore. I'm tired of him wasting roster spots on his guys instead of putting together a STs group with guys who can play actual positions.

I’m beyond annoyed with his ass, but I’m also not going to get my hopes up.

Had he played well for 3 games would you be as reserved as you're suggesting?

If you were unconvinced about the pick when it was made, what have you seen thus far to suggest otherwise? And were the shoe on the other foot, would you be so eager to tell those who liked the Moore pick to wait and see?

I suspect not...

You don’t find it concerning that year after year when the NFL top 100 players is released the Chiefs players on the list are all holdovers from John Dorsey? Brett Veach has been lauded for his 2021 draft, but beyond that he’s largely done a shit job in the draft. KC is on a downward trend because he’s not drafting well overall, and when he does draft we’ll it’s at non-premium positions. He compounds the problem with multiple trades involving several high draft picks for expensive veterans who don’t live up to their status, leading to further draft resources needing to be invested at the same position. This roster is constantly behind the 8 ball because Brett Veach is having to continually make up for his failures in the draft.

This coaching staff needs to be reworked. EB should be gone. Toub can get the **** out. Spags deserves to stay because that defense is looking better than I thought it would this early.

ROFL

Using the NFL Top 100 players list to backup your take is not what you think it is.

You bitched and bitched and bitched for years about corner being a big problem. They’ve got a 7th rd rookie out there playing damn good football.

They have done a damn good job drafting defense and OL.

Gay
Sneed
Bolton
Thornhill
Watson
Karlaftis

Every team struggles to draft somewhere. Shockingly ours has been on offense with Andy Reid as our coach.

Sometimes you gotta spend to fix it. I bet we will next Spring

I always preach patience with draft picks, even those that I'm not a huge fan of.

The fact that anybody has to do that 3 weeks into a rookie season is pretty absurd.

But you and Detoxing are free to do your "they didn't take the guy I wanted, so I'm going to be particularly hard on the guy they did take" routine.

Still zero doubt that you will be eating crow at some point.

Protecting the greatest QB in the league at the moment is never a bad thing.

I realize it’s not a perfect indicator but it can still be useful to see who the young talent is on a team that the NFL respects as top players. If you could cast a vote, who would you include. My money would definitely be on Humphrey. Smith, Bolton, and maybe Thornhill could earn consideration with strong finishes to the season. I think that’s about it for Veach draft picks. The problem is center, guard, and off ball linebacker are all pretty low on the totem pole of impactful positions. It’s still too early to make a judgment call on Moore and Karlaftis, but overall Veach has whiffed at WR, DE, and OT which happen to be three of the most important positions after QB.

If Mahomes needs all the weapons and the OL and the defense.....well, maybe he doesn't need half a billion dollar contract?

OT is infinitely more important at protecting the QB and Veach has failed at finding competent OTs.

We signed Watkins when we had absolutely no clue what we had in Mahomes as he had started one meaningless week 17 game in his career. So I don't think you accurately recall that moment through your post-Colts hangover.

We also learned that year that no matter how good Mahomes is, if we can't play defense, we lose.

Then we reformed the defense. And we had Hill and Kelce as dominant forces.

We eventually traded Hill and we've been dealing with his replacements for 3 games. And you've already determined that the team has been chronically underinvesting in WRs for years.

If you want to show me that you were complaining about this same thing last year, then I'll acknowledge you. But otherwise it just boils down to your complaining about the Hill trade.

Amazing.

I bitched for years and they finally traded up in the first for a cornerback. Yes, the 7th rounder also looks to be a brilliant pick.

If they’ve done so well at drafting OL where are the tackles?

Alright, here's kinda where the issue lies..the Chiefs drafting ability isn't bad, they've pulled numerous starters out of lower rounds etc etc.

The problem is some of the investment can lead to issues. The best linemen on the team are a LG and C, zero issue with a 2nd round center, Thuney makes a lot of money for a guard but eh, it's offset by the Trey Smith find. The issue lies in that in a pass heavy scheme your OT's are extremely important and we have a LT that can't handle speed rushers and a RT that is basically best suited as your 6th lineman.

The Chiefs are trying to rebuild and win at the same time, whiffing on CEH and Hardman is what is really killing them right now. Odd to say this but since Veach took over they've done most things well other than find playmakers..

He has an OL that isn't great at pass blocking, a shitty run game and Travis Kelce. With a defense that is probably 10-15...

That's a recipe for your HOF QB to lose in the playoffs.

Well, if you want a legit playmaker at WR that doesn't need other guys around him to help....probably gonna have to trade up in the first for that. Jamar Chase isn't usually available at 30.

Or don't trade the one you had and pay him what it takes.

Me on the other hand thinks maybe we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and see what happens as we go here.

The problem is more that they didn't plan to not have Tyreek, Hardman is just a gadget guy.

:facepalm:

And so it begins...

Pretty much. If Clyde and Hardman were even decent players then we aren’t having this conversation.

Those 2 misses hurt us badly

Yeah, there's a real island of misfit toys vibe with some of our roster construction.

A physical WR as your #1 guy with a QB who just doesn't need (or really want) that kind of player. An OL built around interior run blocking and a running game that seems committed to OZ looks (w/ RBs who aren't physically equipped for the job).

A really expensive G while cutting corners at WR.

The one area I'd say is complementary is a strong interior pass rush w/ relatively low-cost CBs. That's a nice mesh. But the rest of it seems like a series of mis-matched parts and we see it on days where things just aren't clicking.

Well, yeah.

I'm so tired of the whole "we're putting to much on him to win". Yeah, he's making what he's making in a salary capped league. He's being paid like a force multiplier so he's gonna have to be that.

Missing on a 1st round RB is the one that hurts most, that's supposed to be the easiest position to find and you just completely shit in your pants.

Then they just need to accept that Hardman is a sunk cost and get him the **** off the field when it comes to the offense. Watson needs more snaps. And yes I realize that they aren't the same type of player.

Their #1 WR is the all pro tight end who dropped the game ender in the end zone yesterday.

They're trying so hard to continue to win that they signed JSS and MVS because that was what was available they could afford, fit didn't matter.

Is the Hardman hate from yesterday? He had 1 target.

He's been here 4 years...he's still nothing more than a gadget player, 2nd round picks are supposed to be quality starters.

If he develops as hoped, what’s the ceiling for Skyy Moore? Is he a #1 type receiver talent? If not KC is in a real conundrum, because they need to go out and draft a left tackle and a #1 WR. And considering Reid won’t play a draft pick much you’re likely drafting that receiver with 2024 in mind. Not sure the 2023 receiver group will be any better than this year unless Sky Moore is able to hit the ground running and becomes a go to target for Mahomes.

You can put this on Reid IMO. They wanted to keep Buechele so we wasted a roster spot keeping 3 QB's when we could have maybe a better returner back there.

Probably a good slot/return man...

If we’re being fair, the team planned to build a team around tyreek being there. Skyy and juju are interesting options in that situation.

I think the OL was built around ceh being better in the screen game. Having pulling guards is great. We saw that play well last year when McKinnon did well where ceh did not. This year it isn’t working again, probably because our RBs are middling but also a byproduct of defenses playing us differently knowing they don’t care about our receivers anymore

He's not a slot only guy. I don't know why people continue to say this.

Why is, "we have to redshirt all of our rookie WR's 1st year" an acceptable answer?

****ing draft better receivers, man.

REAL talent shines early and often. It always does. Trey Smith didn't need to redshirt.

Why does this rule only seem to apply to WR's?

I'll tell you why. Because it's not a real rule. The only thing REAL there is that these WR's haven't been good enough to siphon snaps or be featured.

It's not hard to gameplan the Chiefs, no one respects the WR's now or the run game so just don't let Kelce kill you.

I've yet to figure that out either, it's annoying as ****. Rookie WR's have far more success in the NFL than they ever use to...yet here we get to hear about how it takes forever to learn the system.

And our OTs can't block anyone.

Time to stop with that approach as well.

He had two plays in that game where he got caught from behind. He's as smart and savvy as he's ever been. And I don't think the agility has gone backwards at all.

But he's clearly a step slower than he was. I mean at a point if you have a guy like him as your 'WR1' then what purpose does JJSS actually serve here? Because they occupy the same spaces and get their yards in the same way.

The pass-catching corps needs more athleticism. I mentioned it after the Chargers game but while we weren't paying attention, the receivers suddenly got a little slow. Or at least not very dynamic.

I argued back and forth with Clay about this last year, but Pringle was our 2nd most dynamic athlete among WRs and he'd very possibly be our MOST dynamic receiver this year. There's just a decided lack of functional athleticism in our WR room.

And when your top pass catching target is your TE...well that's a problem. Again - misfit toys.

I agree there’s no rule for this and that WRs can thrive. But I don’t think it’s fair to put that on skyy moore not having a talent. It is a rule for Andy Reid even if other coaches are more willing to do it.

Nobody here is saying that. I fully expect Moore to get more snaps and targets as the season goes.

You're the one making the determination that this is all we're getting for the rest of the season, not me.

Andy has always been this way with skill position players. Even Hunt and CEH weren't supposed to start day 1. Ware's injury and Williams opting out pushed them into starting roles their rookie seasons.

Because right now he's not shown he's a good ANYTHING guy.

And until he shows anything at the NFL level, what precisely would you consider an undersized receiver who relies on first step quickness and doesn't have outstanding long-speed?

You continue to view him through the lens of his top 10% outcome development and as what you WANT him to be. Not what he's shown. Not what his pedigree or draft status even suggests.

And then criticize anyone that won't follow suit.

People who call him a probable slot receiver long-term have a MUCH better basis for their argument right now than those who see him as a viable #1 WR and boundary guy long-term.