Man, I don't agree with your assessment at all.

most of the INT's are precisely because Mahomes ISN'T always taking what's there and forcing it downfield.

Trying to force the ball downfield when the defense is specifically built to beat that is just madness, Mahomes or no.

It's still football. Even when you have the best QB in the sport, it's still football.

Run the ball and take the short stuff and get them out of the light boxes and dropping 7 and the deep shots will be there.

It's still football.

15 rushes won't cut it. It won't keep the defense honest. I don't know if they need to make PM do more rushes in the RPO game but the lack of a run game today really showed up.

12. Subtract out Pat's scrambles, because none of those wre designed runs, and we ran the ball 12 times.

The guy who blocked it was untouched stepped into a gap jumped unhindered and got a hand on it.

Maybe work on FG protections.

Ah, so Toub hasn't been coaching the protections, got it. So, by that reckoning, the Chiefs have had at least 10 FG/XP attempts blocked this season? how about just in the last 5 years?

Since neither is the case, is it possible, even remotely, that someone just made a mistake/DEN just made a play?

Nah, gotta be Toub hasn't been coaching protections ever in 22 years, right?

Yes, that was huge. I was ****ing screaming at the tv

Yeah that's the stuff I feel like happens on almost every play.

To me, the story of the game was Toney. He led the team in receiving and I think that could become a somewhat regular occurrence if he stays healthy. He’s going to be a big part of the playoff run.

both routes he ran were tyreek specials

Good read DC, Thanks.

I thought the officiating was ultimately fair. The hands to the face was weak, but so was the OPI that helped us out. that's really all I had a ton of trouble with. I'd sure as **** take that crew of Cheffers or Clete god ****ing Blakeman. God I hate ****ing dogshit officials.

STs is ****ing frustrating. I'm all about Justin Watson fielding punts. He's a smart player, has sure hands back there and looked confident when he fielded them. Just catch it and run forward, to pussyfooting, no reversing field, just catch and run forward. Take what they give you, don't give anyone the opportunity to get a penalty and get the best QB that has ever played the ball.

No clue WTF to think about Townsend. Obviously he biffed the snap, but it looked like after the miss Butker was explaining shit to Townsend. Do they not practice? WTF.

15 in a row is 15 in a row. DJ had like 2 picks and housed one on them when they were a playoff team and we were in the shitter and they were good. It happens. Dominance is hard. Brother****ing Cheatriot ****bag lost some and played poorly in division sometimes, and they were actively cheating. It's hard. Get the win. Move on.

**** Donk Forever.

Special teams continues to be a problem with FG, EP and punt returns. It looks to me that Butker is going to be a problem in the playoffs. Chiefs should plan on it.

I put that all on Andy Reid. He got lazy again and thought with PM he could just phone it in.

For those of you that believe the NFL is rigged and KC is the recipient of the most ****ings should be very thankful there was no call for roughing the passer on the final sack of the game against Wilson. That has been called at least once this year.

Oh yeah. And that OPI was weak as shit too.

There were some bad calls out way but we definitely benefited from a couple big ones.

100% agreed. The OL did a really good Job today. I was a little perplexed by “apprehensive” Mahomes on scramble runs. He usually gets 7-8 yards on those and today his hesitation led to him getting only 3-4.

Totally agree and not sure when it first started. In past seasons, he was always so decisive between run or pass. Multiple times a game, he hesitates to make that decision…which leads to a minimal gain while absorbing a hit, or a weird throw at someone’s feet. It drives me crazy. It’s almost as though they’ve coached that decisiveness out of him in a way. Very odd.

He hesitated a couple times but I don’t think there was a clear opportunity to run for a first in either situation. Just because he seems to always scramble for the first in those situations doesn’t mean we should expect it every time.

I don’t think he meant “running for a first down”. He meant there are more yards available than he is currently getting because of his apprehensiveness to just take off and go.

The ones I'm thinking of I took as, it's 3rd and long and I can't make the first, so I'm running away to the line of scrimmage, and wait for someone to come open and obviously nobody did.

But I may be misreading the situation.

Wilson was not in the act of passing when contact was initiated. The "throw" did not occur until he was swung around by the defender. The defender did not land on the "passer". Correctly a non-call.

Your point is well taken however. I was a little suprised there was not a flag for the Chiefs being mean.

and they should have blown it dead before Jones had a chance to sling 'em...

I agree. That play was over long before the whistle blew. We would have been screaming if he refs failed to blow a play dead and let 15 take that shot.

The ease in scoring that 1st TD may have set the tone for some to ease up a bit. That leads to mistakes and mistakes lead to opponents points. You can rationalize all you want about Denver being up for this game due to a coaching change/embarrassing loss, but I see it as a disturbing trend where we take sad teams too lightly. Denver twice, Houston, Indy, and the Raiders games were fine examples.

The new guys

Pacheco is my favorite addition this year. Love seeing him get some receptions. Would love to see him get some of the same passes McKinnon gets, especially near the goal line. Would also love to see Pacheco get some of the passes that made Kimble Anders' career. I think Pacheco has the speed, wiggle and hate to house something like that.

Toney is my second favorite addition this year. Can't wait to see what he can do after an offseason in the system.

Has Cook been more involved lately? Only casual observation, but it seems like he is either playing more or doing more than even a few games ago.

Yeah the first one was 3rd & 10 at our own 20. He hesitated and only got 4 yards. The second one was a 3rd & 10 at our own 25 and he hesitated and only got 2 yards. Either way if he doesn't hesitate maybe he gets the first maybe he doesn't. But if you are gonna hesitate and wait for the D to collapse into your running lane might as well just throw the ball out of bounds at that point instead of running for 2-4 yards and taking a hit. :shrug:

Agreed. It's who the Chiefs are this season.

I've been pining for Pacheco to get passes in the flat for awhile, and yesterday he did get at least one that I can remember. It's probably a wash between him and McKinnon with McKinnon having the edge with some old man tricks, but Pacheco is the future McKinnon (as much as I love him) is not.

But it is certainly positive that he is getting looks.

AFAIC Mahomes has earned the rope to make those calls, but I agree with chucking it out of bounds. In all likelihood he's not that dude, probably. Those two will stand out on film and he'll lock that away in his archives, but he's probably always going to be the guy that thinks if I can just make this one guy miss I can smoke the other fool.

But yeah, chuck that bitch out of bounds, please?

There is no reason why you can’t build around efficiency but also have options that allow you to get aggressive. Toney shows time and time again that when he’s not out there we do not have a sideline threat. Who else is going up to get passes the way he does besides of course kelce? These are routine plays for other teams. Even if we could open it up how good are our options? Mvs continues to be horrible adjusting to the ball. Hell what’s the point of him being out there when he really hurts efficiency. Jujus solid enough but he’s not gonna match up against shutdown CBs or give you the speed you need there.

We are built decently well now for efficiency. Cool, build off that. But we see time and time and time again that our speed guys are horrendous adjusting to the ball, and our size guys aren’t fast enough to stretch the field.

Man, I'm really not sure what you're arguing.

We have more a more explosive offense than last season by any statistical measure. Juju, who I wouldn't call 'explosive' is averaging 11.9 yards per catch, and Hill, who I would call explosive was at 11.1 last year.

We're the number one offense in football, despite a lot of fumbles and dumb interceptions-far more than previous seasons.

The only change we need to make is to clean things up.

Literally.

[QUOTE=oldman;16703001]The ease in scoring that 1st TD may have set the tone for some to ease up a bit. That leads to mistakes and mistakes lead to opponents points. You can rationalize all you want about Denver being up for this game due to a coaching change/embarrassing loss, but I see it as a disturbing trend where we take sad teams too lightly. Denver twice, Houston, Indy, and the Raiders games were fine examples.[OTE]

No that's not what happened. WE scored on the first drive and then botched the XP. After the donks kicked a FG we drove the ball down the field and then the refs blew an obvious PI in the end zone and on the next play Mahomes tried to squeeze one in and it got picked. Our D held and then Toney tried to do to much on the punt return and fumbled the ball away. That gave the donks some juice and they scored a TD and the game was on. The Chiefs didn't ease up they screwed up. Then they won the game so it's all good.

I’m tired of this narrative that we are so explosive on offense that we should be remotely content. Andy Reid is a magician making it really work with what we have. But we have clear limits. And they are limits on talent, not on sloppiness. Anyone not looking at stats on paper can see that our offense hasn’t been nearly as explosive as you continue to suggest. Two bad second halves against denver. Terrible game vs Seattle. Struggled against the rams. And despite what the numbers say, we had a really hard time moving the ball vs the chargers and titans. I get why we want to be more efficient but we have some glaring issues with the passing game.

And the narrative that we weren’t explosive last year is also overused and exaggerated. We were dominant the second half of last year including back to back 40+ point playoff wins. We had one bad second half against cincy.

You’re not gonna clean up Mvs. He just isn’t it. For crying out loud we run Watson on 75% of snaps simply for running the right routes. Thats a talent issue. Defenses can essentially wipe out two of our WRs without paying a lick of attention to them. Juju is solid but we all know he’s a possession guy. Again I applaud our move to efficiency and I know this is a rebuild year. I’m just shocked at how many are content with what our offense has become. I don’t care what the numbers say, as good as we’ve been, we are capable of way better and we can be with more talent.

Amen! We have the QB. We can be so much more.

No we dont. The clean up part is a biproduct of what this offense has become. Buff and Cin are explosive. We dink and dunk and break the short ones big sometimes, which gets us many of the long completions stats.

Yeah it's a odd offense really. It's elite, absolutely lethal a lot of the time, but explosive? Dunno. I'm happy to be proven wrong but it seems like we're ripping off fewer chunk plays than in previous years. That said I think that started last year when we did have an elite WR, so who knows, and obviously there's a reasonable argument of "who cares?"

I can kind of see it both ways. If we had a decent RT maybe some of the longer developing explosive plays have a better chance. But do we really expect this WR group to be delivering that? I do think the one obvious area of improvement for the offense is here though. Maybe we get that with a WR upgrade, maybe OT. As long as we build in at least one of those positions next year I'll be happy.

Look, guys, you're arguing against a fantasty.

'content'?

No, realistic. We have 33 players under contract for 2023, and that includes literally not a single starting offensive tackle.

There will not be money to go buy a star #1 in free agency.

Nobody's saying we wouldn't like upgrades. Nobody's saying that.

All I'm saying is that we're going to have to draft and develop them.

Of course Cinci is more 'explosive'-they've got their high first round pick WR and elite QB on rookie deals.

We don't have that anymore. And you can't just go buy one.

The cap will not allow it.

So yeah, I agree, this is a tiresome argument, because the cap is real, and paying Mahomes is real, and the fact that we have to field a full team is real.

It's not ****ing happening. So move the **** on, already.

There's nothing wrong with the offense that better execution doesn't fix. There will be turnover in the offseason, as there will be every year now. It's life with an elite QB getting paid as such.

For the remainder of this season, KC will go as far as their execution level determines. The only thing that ever stops them is themselves, with fumbles, drops, INT's. Also, just in my opinion, sub-par OT play, but that's just me.

No, we don't have time to run WASP. So if that's what you want, then you need better OT's. Two of 'em. And you definitely can't have THAT and also pay market price for a speedy WR1.

Nobody's saying they don't want it. Some of us are saying it's not feasible.

I think and hope getting Toney out there and getting skyy better will help quite a bit. Those guys help a ton with the passing game by taking those quick hitches and wiggling for gains. And McKinnon helps a ton too obviously. But once we get that more consistently even if the defense loosens up an inch we should be taking it a mile. Which then makes it even easier to open up the short game. But we just don’t have the horses to do that. None of our guys right now scare other teams downfield. Denver did exactly that. The opportunities were there and we didn’t take advantage of them. Some of that is obviously on mahomes for flat out missing. But the only WR who scares anybody downfield right now is Toney and I’m not sure we can ever rely on him to have a huge snap share.

So you're really arguing 'air yards'?

I personally don't think a shorter pass that a receiver breaks a long run counts any less than a pass that travels 40 yards in the air.

We don't have ****ing time to run WASP.

I could be wrong but I *think* the Chiefs (and their top 5 offense) are among the best this year for plays of 20+ yards.

Mahomes is 5th in air yards

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...g_advanced.htm

But #23 per attempt and #19 in completed air yards per attempt. We are also #2 in YAC.

Great! We still can't buy a game breaker WR. We'll have to develop one.

These are things that tell a story, but not the one you think.

now do joe burrow

"per attempt" is just a function of throwing the ball a lot more in most cases, which is why justin fields is high

I really think there's a lot of irrational 'want' going on here.

We remember 'WASP', and we see Burrow throwing to Chase/Higgins/Boyd and we think-

MAN, I WANT THAT!

But reality is, 'WASP' is a pipedream with Brown and Wylie at OT, and The Bengals have all of those guys on rookie contracts still.

We're just in a different place now. You like Mahomes? Me too. But we're paying him now, and we have dogshit at RT, a mediocre LT that wants record setting money, and one good rookie DE and nothing else there. Things aren't changing other than continued growth this season.

and in '23, we have zero starting OT's, one starting level DE, no starting WR's under contract-33 guys under contract total, and somewhere around $45-50m to deal with it all.

We're not going to blow it all on a free agent WR-and there aren't any great ones in their prime available anyway.

We're going to have to grow our own, unless it's Toney-which if he can get his hammy issues under control I'd feel real good about, honestly.

Everyone wants the 18 offense back. It's just not gonna happen. I'd love to have a legit WR. Everyone would.

But it's just gonna have to come in the draft.

And as much as this offense has been good, Mahomes has done just as much at slowing it down as others. He hasn't played as well this year despite the #'s.

shittiest MVP ever :cuss:

Niang is still under contract for 23? I would like to see him back in there - I think he is much better than Wylie.

They do tell the story. You're usually spot on, but respecrfully IMO, you're off here if you cant see the story they teĺl.

Exactly. Ptetty clear.

Yes I am. And we need to fix the OT's so we will have time. They're so bad, when we play teMs with good pass rushers, we don't even have time for the short stuff.

I don’t think anybody is saying that we will be anything like the fast break offense we used to be. Anyone wanting new WRs knows we are heading in the right direction. But we have some clear limitations. We’re paying $10m to Mvs who is a liability. And we may pay juju $15-20m to not be a WR1 - much as I like the guy. Again I don’t think you need to give $30m to a top 5 wr. Frankly if we’re nervous about spending then cut Mvs and think twice about re-upping juju. Get yourself a Wr1 with size AND speed, and solve our problem of having a guy who can actually match up with CB1s. That’s basically cost neutral. Then use draft picks to fill in the rest.

The WR market will be way better than you think. If not this year then next year. We’re going go see an insane amount of huge contracts come due in the next year or two and it’s unsustainable for these teams to be able to keep all their WRs.

And you cannot walk into next season with Mvs and Watson playing the majority of snaps. It’s clear that we’re productive in spite of these guys, not because of them, right?

Mahomes missed MVS twice yesterday, one was most likely a long TD. Mahomes even called himself out in his words at his press conference.

Right... I wish we had an offense where the QB was the only one in the league to hit 5000 yards this year...

He also had a few passes where he sat and waited for the ball where an above receiver makes an attempt to play the ball.

Mvs….
Disappears most games
When he does produce he disappears outside of 1-2 catches
Kills too many drives with drops or not getting his feet down
Kills even more drives by not adjusting to the ball
Really seems to be out of sync with mahomes

Having a home run threat is fine but we’re paying the guy $10m. And you can’t have an efficient offense with a guy who makes this many mistakes.

How do you not see the correlation?

We have an offensive minded HC, TE and QB who are legitimately in the GOAT conversation at their positions. That is an obscene collection of talent.

Reality check is that kelce is 33 and can’t keep getting doubled and tripled. Kelces dominance hides a lot of our limitations of our WR room. We can’t approach the next few years assuming kelce keeps that up.

Our offense has been outstanding and on paper unstoppable. In the second half of the season we have run into plenty of issues.

I am proud of our offense. That is different from being content. For as good as we’ve been we are capable of much better.

Yeah but that's the MVS story. Somehow two hall of fame QBs can't gel with him. Hence his career 50% catch rate.

I could be wrong but I thought that flag was thrown really late too. (When the contact actually happened early in the play)

I remember when we signed a bunch of guys despite having only $750 in cap space. It's almost like you can spread out cap hits so that they don't all impact one years salary cap.

Sunday was not on MVS... Mahomes flat out missed him.

My question is, how does Pat keep missing him? They haven't been in sync the entire season. And Pat has always been one of the most accurate deep passers since Day One.

It's to the point that when I see Pat uncork one in MVS' direction, before it starts coming down, I'm chalking it up to an INC. Sadly, most of the time I'm right.

I don’t agree regarding Mahomes’ deep ball accuracy. It’s the biggest weakness in his game. Weird thing is I think he was better at those deep shots in college.

We're going to have to grow our own, which is why we spent a #2 this year on a WR, and snatched a '21 #1 pick from The Giants.

There's an emphasis on the position, and will continue to be, and some guys will work out, and some won't. But purchasing a #1 WR that is an upgrade from Juju is highly unlikely any time in the near future no matter how much some of you guys want to scream for it.

It's HIGHLY UNLIKELY. And wouldn't do KC any good anyway, with dumpster fires at OT and a subpar defensive line other than Jones. Karlaftis I have high hopes for, but you really need a speed rusher opposite.

Dream all you want, I'm done talking about it. You guys can all wring your hands and cry again this offseason about how we won't sniff the play-offs and all of the other teams got so much better, and then we'll go win the division again and compete for a SB anyway.

I presume you believe that Niang and/or PTW will not ever be starters?

I think wanagho is intriguing but RT is exactly the type of position you use the draft for because you can find talent in the late rounds. If you dont hit just keep swinging.

I'm just not convinced The Chiefs believe either will be, or we'd have seen one or the other instead of Wylie, who blows goats.

Hmm. There's tons of Mahomes/Chiefs highlight reels on YT showing Pat dropping dimes on DRob, Conley, Sammy, Hill . . . even Sausage.

Even his misses many times were inches off, up to maybe a yard or two.

But he's been missing MVS by as much as 10+ feet; that seems to be new this season?

He's never been a good "deep ball thrower" here in terms of the traditional deep ball. THe deep crossers and such yes, but the outside or deep posts, not so much.