Originally Posted by little jacob (Post 4898583)

Justice is not extending grace to someone who wantonly disposed of multiple other people's lives essentially for their own convenience.

Originally Posted by Jilly (Post 4898548)

It took me a while to get through this thread and of course, Sully summed up our belief. But I wanted to add that I think we get confused about justice and vengeance.
In Frazod's case, would it be more healing for his goddaughter to witness the man in cuffs being dragged off or would it be more healing for her to find help to remedy the pain, help like forgiveness or grace?
In the case of a man who kills another, would the family of the victim be healed by seeing him "fry" or would they be healed by coming to grips with their own pain and getting past that pain?
Justice, imo, is not vengeance, but grace. And if we truly are concerned for the victim's family, no amount of death will repair and mend their wounds and while it isn't on the spot satisfying for those who suffer, in the long run, a path of justice brings much more peace.

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 4898761)

Victims tend to not be able to heal while the person who murdered their loved one lives. Every breath [s]he takes is another remind of breaths their loved one doesn't take, AND each breath pushes that person's life calculus one breath ahead of the life they took.

Originally Posted by thurman merman (Post 4897360)

A friend of my parents is sentenced to be executed in a couple of weeks for being an accomplice in a murder in 1994. You can read the details of the incident below (written by his wife), and sign the petition if you feel inclined to do so. We are petitioning for his sentence to be changed to life in prison without parole, rather than death.

On Friday, despite the fact that we have two issues before the court, the Missouri Supreme Court set an execution date of Aug. 27. For those of you who would like to do anything to help try to prevent this state from killing my husband, your help is welcome and there are some fairly simple things you can do. For those who are not aware of the facts of the case, here are some main points:Allen Nicklasson, the man who shot and killed Richard Drummond in Aug. 1994 did so on his own after leaving Dennis behind in the stolen car. Allen has been consistent in telling the truth since day one - with his friends and close acquaintances, as well as with law enforcement - that Dennis had absolutely no idea that when Allen walked Drummond into the woods, Allen was going to shoot him. Allen had planned to tie Drummond up so that by the time Drummond could free himself and walk into town to all police, Allen, Dennis and Tim DeGraffenreid would be back in Blue Springs, hiding out.Instead, Allen decided to kill Drummond. His statements to police have been consistent and truthful, but the state successfully kept Allen from testifying in trial. The jury never heard the truth and thus convicted Dennis for first-degree murder as an accomplice. Allen has tried through the years to be heard in court, but the appellate courts denied him that right as well. We are still trying to get the Supreme Court to look at Allen's statements. Dennis is not an innocent victim, but he is innocent of first-degree murder. We are not asking that he be freed. We believe the sentence of death is excessive in this case, and that society would be safe and justice would be served through clemency, which means we want the governor to change Dennis' sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole.In addition, Dennis has been actively involved in restorative justice even before the program was established at Potosi Correctional Center. He is the editor of Compassion, a publication written and edited by death row inmates across the country who have raised more than $34,000 in college scholarships for family members of murdered victims. This scholarship goes to family members regardless of their stance on the death penalty. For example, Zach Osbourne, one of the recipients, supports the death penalty openly and is going to school to become a police officer. Dennis compiled a book, "Today's Choices Affect Tomorrow's Dreams," that is distributed for free to juvenile centers around the country. The book has been so popular, he has been asked to do another. That book is currently being compiled.Dennis is chairman of the prison's Hospice group and has cared for many dying prison patients through the years. He is a co-founder of 4-H LIFE, a family strengthening program that teaches inmates to be better parents and includes a family 4-H meeting each month inside the prison. As a former president and officer of 4-H, Dennis has led fundraisers to send money to children's programs in the state and to send 4-H LIFE members to summer camp and state leadership programs. 4-H LIFE has won several awards and is now active in several other prisons.Dennis has actively worked to build bridges between the Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Islamic and Native American religious groups at the prison. He is a founder of the Charity Carnival - in its second year - that raises money inside the prison for charitable organizations. The carnival is today, but he is locked up and cannot carry out his responsibilities for that event.Dennis speaks to university student groups on a regular basis to give them insight into the death penalty and prison life. He is, and remains, a positive spokesman and positive role models for other prisoners.He is a leader in the Set Free Ministry, a prison ministry that works with thousands of inmates in Missouri and Illinois to help them in their Christian walk. The Ministry has grown from an office of three to an office of around 20 inmates at PCC and a second office in Charleston's prison. The Ministry continues to expand in prisons in the two states as well as into jails.All of this is documented, not the exaggerated account of a wife desperate to save her husband.For those of you who have asked, I am terrified, but determined to fight for justice for my family. Murdering my husband is not justice - it is harming me, my son, Dennis' sisters, brother, nephews, aunts uncles, friends, etc. He is my soulmate, for those of you who understand what that means. A date is an extremely serious situation, but we have issues to pursue and this does not mean we're done. Please do not assume that this is inevitable, even though we have a very, very difficult fight in the next 32 days.I appreciate your support in any way. Should you want to write letters, file amicus briefs (friend of the court) with your church or other organization, let me know and I'll give you more info. If you choose to pray, please ask God to intervene and see that Dennis receives a lesser sentence.Thanks.

You can sign the petition at the link below. Thanks.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/help-dennis-skillicorn

Originally Posted by Sully (Post 4898394)

I'm anti-death penalty, in all cases.
But I'm not going to sign that petition.
It's not honest.
Not that a lack of honesty is a reason to kill someone, but I just don't want to be a part of something like that. If there were a petition to outlaw capital punishment, I'd be the first to sign it.

I want to address the issue that always comes up of the family deserving to see the guy die, though. I feel for the victims and their families. I hope I never have to endure the pain that they feel. I've only lost one person close to me, my father by natural causes, and that pain will never leave me. I understand it's a human emotion to want revenge... to even take part in revenge. But I just don't believe for one second that even a small part of the hole left in their lives will be filled by being a part of killing the person responsible. I feel that violence begets violence. Maybe they will "feel" better, but I doubt it. Maybe they will feel "avenged," but what have they traded for that feeling? I understand we are talking about, in most pro-death penalty peoples' minds, the taking of a life with no value... but it is taking a life, nonetheless. I just can't comprehend how that would make a person feel better about their loss.
My wife and I have discussed this, and we've heard the same reasoning that always comes up, and another one is, "What if that were your wife or child?" It'd be tough. I'd be full of hate, and questioning... the same emotions as anyone, I would imagine. But for us, our faith tells us it is our job to forgive. It is our job to better the world. So I guess we imagine a scenario where maybe by keeping a murderer alive, they can do some good. Maybe they can teach someone else how not to end up in the bad places they did. Maybe they can do work for the families of the victims. I don't know... maybe some good can come from it. I do know that if we as a society kill them... no chance for them to ever do good will ever happen. I know that's idealistic, and in a real-world time and place, would be hard to do... but it's how we believe.

Originally Posted by thurman merman (Post 4898720)

i would like to apologize/retract my starting of this thread. in all honesty, i only knew what my parents had told me and the brief article that skillicorn's wife wrote. after reading the court documents, i actually feel bad for asking people to sign the petition. mods please feel free to delete this thread.

Originally Posted by RJ (Post 4898809)

I have been in the position of the victim's family. I can't speak for everyone, but in our case there was no urge for revenge. Someone being put to death wouldn't have made the pain go away, only time can do that. We really weren't all that concerned with whether the sentence was death or life in prison, only that it be over so we could move on with our lives.

Not saying some families wouldn't or shouldn't want that.

Oddly, despite my own experiences, I'm not really pro death penalty. It's not out of sympathy to the criminals. Most of them are guilty and their punishments are just. But the fact that even just a few might be innocent makes me believe that we should do away with it. That, and the exorbitant cost. We spend millions upon millions of dollars trying to put people to death, far more than it costs to lock them away for life.

I could go on for a long time on this subject, but I won't. I really just wanted to touch on the subject of revenge. And again, I realize that I don't speak for the families of all victims.

Originally Posted by thurman merman (Post 4898720)

i would like to apologize/retract my starting of this thread. in all honesty, i only knew what my parents had told me and the brief article that skillicorn's wife wrote. after reading the court documents, i actually feel bad for asking people to sign the petition. mods please feel free to delete this thread.

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 4900447)

Hey, it made for an interesting discussion. I have no issue with the thread.

Just curious: do you think your parents know the whole story? And if not, do you think knowing the whole story will affect their relationship with the wife of this guy?