Biggest crybaby in the NBA and it’s not even close. He definitely has some talent, but watching him is like watching Putin try to play basketball. The guy thinks he should get superstar level calls every time and he’s yet to win a playoff round. He’s talented, but he won’t ever carry them in the postseason with how mentally soft he is.

Hakeem didn't win the title with Sampson. I was talking about 1994 and 1995. That's a fair point about Drexler. However, there's no doubt who was top dog on that team. It wasn't Drexler. Shaq was better than Kobe during their runs, but Kobe was more likely to have the ball in key moments.

In any case, Shaq never had a run like 1994 where Hakeem had no Drexler and carried that team.

Hakeem was on 9 All-NBA defensive teams. Shaq was on 3 (all of them second teams). Hakeem was also a 2x defensive player of the year. There's no comparing them defensively. It's not close.

Shaq was comparatively better offensively, though he had little to no skills besides dunking and doing a baby hook shot from two feet away. He had no game facing the basket. Of course, the counter-argument is he didn't need to develop skills since he could just back defenders down.

That said, I rank them both #10 to #15 all-time. So not a big difference. I just get surprised when most rank Shaq higher. I watched both of their primes and Hakeem was a more important player to his team. A better two-way player. The Lakers/Magic/Heat aren't winning titles without Shaq, but they're not a lottery team either.

I mean, if Porzingis could have stayed healthy for even one playoff series they may have gotten one. Hell, just last year I feel like they knock the Clippers off if he played. Dude is made of glass, and Luka basically was their entire offense outside of that. Regarding his turnovers, he has had some of the highest usage rate (leading the league this season) so of course the guy with the ball the most will have more turnovers.

Porzingis is a ****ing pussy.

I have Oscar ahead of Curry. Better scorer, better rebounder, better passer. Curry is a better three-point shooter but that doesn't matter because the 3-point shot wasn't around in Oscar's career (otherwise he scores even more points). Curry is also a late bloomer. He first several years were nothing special.

Neither guy was great defensively, but Curry can't guard a lawn chair.

Shaq didn't win the title with Penny. You brought him up first. You're changing the goal posts, not me.

Shaq was clearly the Lakers' dominant player in the NBA Finals.


Shaq
2000 NBA Finals: 38.0 PPG/16.7 RPG/2.3 APG, .611 FG%

2001 NBA Finals: 33.0 PPG/15.8 RPG/4.8 APG, .573 FG%

2002 NBA Finals: 36.3 PPG/12.3 RPG/3.8 APG, .595 FG%

2004 NBA Finals: 26.6 PPG/10.8 RPG/1.6 APG, .631 FG%

Kobe
2000 NBA Finals: 15.6 PPG/4.6 RPG/4.2 APG, .367 FG%

2001 NBA Finals: 24.6 PPG/7.8 RPG/5.8 APG, .415 FG%

2002 NBA Finals: 26.8 PPG/5.8 RPG/5.3 APG, .514 FG%

2004 NBA Finals: 22.6 PPG/2.8 RPG/4.4 APG, .381 FG%

Obviously you haven’t watched him play.

Everyone in today's NBA is a pussy. The 3 point shot has created more skilled big men, but also too many brokedicks who are always injured and can't beat guards for rebounds. I doubt most of these centers can even bench their own weight. The league is softer than a pillow right now.

I know he didn't win the title with Penny. I'm just saying even without Penny the Magic could (and did) make the playoffs. The Rockets without Hakeem would be left without a superstar for most of his prime.

We saw Hakeem carry a team. I don't remember Shaq carrying a team for an extended time. Thus, if I'm starting from scratch, I'm picking Hakeem over Shaq. If I have a Kobe or Wade, I'd rather have Shaq as my big man for a better complimentary piece with those guards' outside game.

His own coach called him a crybaby for how much he complained to the refs. Take your homer goggles off. The guy is a ****ing Eastern European crybaby. I didn’t deny he had talent. Just that he’s completely mentally soft. Anyone who’s watched any game he’s in can vouch for that. Watch his next game. I’ll bet you 100 bucks he complains at least 5 times about a call not going his way and at least one of those complaints will be while the other team scores a fast break point while he’s crying to a ref on the other end of the court. It’s pretty much a nightly occurrence with him.

Hakeem was an amazing defender - no question.

By dWAR he was the 4th best of all time. That said, Shaq was 21st. He was by no means a slouch and was absolutely an impact 2-way player.

I simply don't agree that those Magic teams are obviously better without Shaq than the Rockets would've been without Olajuwon. And while you want to cite one year where Olajuwon carried his team to a title (a year I've spoken to), I think you're also overstating his teammates SIGNIFICANTLY in 99-00.

I mean sure, he had Kobe, but Kobe was 21 and nothing resembling the monster he eventually became. He was a volume scorer with no real outside shot to speak of. And his #3 option was fat Glen Rice who was washed. And the cast only gets worse from there. Beyond those 2, that team's worse than TODAY'S Lakers. It's damn ugly.

The 99/00 Lakers weren't any better without Shaq than that 93-94 team is without Olajuwon. And with that squad the Lakers won 67 games. And his playoff performances that year (and the following season) were absolutely epic. 30+ PPG and 15+ RPG. Shaq was absolutely the guy who fueled that 99-00 run and largely 00-01 as well.

And you want to note that Olajuwon had inferior teammates when he won his rings (even if I don't entirely agree), is it not worth pointing out that Shaq won twice as many of them? Or that while you cite all of Olajuwon's All-Defensive accolades in comparison to Shaqs, how about the fact that Shaq has more All-NBA nods than Olajuwon? You want to talk about 2-way players, that would seem to support O'Neal being the better one, no?

I just don't think you're holding the two guys to the same standard. I don't think Olajuwon was a better two-way player - simply a different one. He was an elite defender and very good scorer. Shaq was a very good defender and an elite offensive weapon.

And I think when you look at their combined totals, it bears that out.

Shaq: 1207 career games, 181.7 WS, 75.5 VORP
Dream: 1238 career games, 162.8 WS, 74.2 VORP

If you want to compare the respective 'peak' periods we're talking about above, it's the same story:

99-01 Shaq: 33.5 WAR, VORP of 16.1
92-94 Dream: 31.1 WAR, VORP of 15.1

Hakeem is a great player, both players came about their greatness in different ways, but in the end I think Shaq was just a LITTLE better. And yeah, a lot of that came not through hard work or skill, but by winning the genetic lottery. But that's basketball, man. Hell, that sports writ large.

If I could have either guy on any team I build for the duration of their careers, I'm going to take Shaq.

Kobe Jeter ranked ahead of both Shaq and Hakeem is the true tragedy.

I think you're glossing over a bit there.

The Magic went from 60 wins w/ Shaq to 45 without him, and that's after replacing him with Ronnie Seikaly who was a pretty good player in his own right and put up 17/10 that year on better than 50% shooting.

When a team replaces you with a guy who puts up fringe All-Star numbers and they get 25% worse anyway, I'd say that speaks pretty loudly to your impact on that team. How about when a team wins 56 games with you, trades you for two players who both average 15 PPG in your place and then proceeds to win only 34 games the following season, as was the case w/ the '04-'05 Lakers?

The Kobe you're remembering just wasn't the Kobe that existed for that Lakers championship run with Shaq. Shaq made that team work. Kobe evolved a TON before he became the guy who later led teams to championships as the top guy.

I don't know how you can mention Jeter in the same vein as Kobe.

Kobe was a legit superstar. Top 5-7 minimum NBA player of all time and has the stats and championships to prove it. He probably took a little too many threes and did a little too much hero ball, but he had the talent and drive to be one of the best. He did it with two different supporting cases. Two completely different dynasties.