I do. Winning teams don’t go after FA relievers.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I don't place the majority of the blame om Mo for this shitfest. He most definitely does deserve some blame. Matheny deserves most of the blame.

It's all on Dewitt at this point for continuing to support Matheny after what we have all seen of Mathenys performance. He has the 6th most MLB experience of all managers. He is what he is.

ROFL well played sir, well played! :clap:

WTF was that? I thought Ozuna was a gold glove. LOL

Ozuna let a ball bounce off his ass thinking it was a homerun. Yeah I’m out for awhile with this team. My brain needs a break.

The last three times I've dared to put a game on, whoever they were playing immediately scored a run. Like ****ing clockwork. I've probably watched about three innings over the course of the season, and have no plans to watch anymore. On the off chance that they manage to do something that doesn't suck, there's always highlights.

I'm done with these clowns until Matheny is shitcanned.

im already in 2019. Maybe just Maybe Matheny is gone. Maybe we convince Franco we made a mistake not hiring him over Matheny, lure him from Cleveland with a Madden level contract. Maybe Giradi is ready to coach again.

Our pitching is going to rock and roll.
Reyes
Martinez
Flaherty
Mikolas
Wacha
Hudson
Weaver

We trade one of those pitchers, Kelly and surplus OF for some Offensive help. We get rid of Fowler. And maybe just maybe we spend some money on FA offense. We are not getting Manny or Harper but there are still going to be some offensive help out there besides those two.

A shit ton of maybes, I know. But hoping for maybes are where this team is now.

http://mediadownloads.mlb.com/mlbam/...sset_1200K.mp4

Just LOL. Holliday could play a better LF.

ROFL

Earth to Mike, CMart doesn’t have it and should probably see a shrink. This is full on train wreck now.

this team in unrecoginizable from teams we are use to seeing. No way Dewitt will bring Matheny back if they continue to play like this. Just fire him at the All-Star break and give Oquendo a chance.

This

JFC

ROFL

We need a Marlins like purge. Everyone for sale at the deadline. Except Yadi because he’s ****ing Yadi that’s why.

Giving up 6 unearned runs while being 2 hit so far seems not good.

This team is ****ing atrocious. I've never seen a defensive inning worse than that last one.

Bases loaded nobody out and 0 runs scored. Hey Mo how about some changes.

Like I said Yadi can stay because he’s a potential hall of fame but anyone else can GTFO.

I like how Mike was trying to keep it loose by pitching Garcia. It’s not April or May mother****er, tick tock tick tock your time is almost through.

remember when, not too long ago, people were bitching about Pujols and Molina not running out ground balls in the infield. How spoiled were we as Cardinals fans?

<a href="https://imgflip.com/i/2co8y1"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/2co8y1.jpg" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>

What? ROFL

Did he hear some fan yell TIME! or something? Wtf was he doing.

This team is a disaster. I maybe watch 1 game a week and they usually lose. I can't remember the last time i watched them win a game. I think it was the game where Wacha almost no hit the pirates.

Mo should probably be the first change, one nanosecond before Matheny and Mabry are canned. Call Stubby Clapp up and give him the interim tag as a tryout for the job full time.

Meathead thought the game was close.

"Even though it wasn't going well, we got to a spot in the last part of the game where we are five runs away," Mike Matheny said after it was over. "In this park, that happens quick.

If you just look at the last 10 years and who were the top 10 relievers in each of those years, about one third of them would have paid off to sign to a multi-year deals (within reason). For every Rivera you have a Heath Bell, Carlos Marmol, or Jason Motte. For every Craig Kimbrel you have a Matt Capps, Joel Hanrahan or Chris Perez. for every Trevor Hoffman you have a Brian Wilson, Trevor Rosenthal or John Axford. Relievers even the best ones are tough to predict (actually I bet you would find similar results for starters as well).

I don’t condone spending big money on FA starters either. When’s the last time that’s worked out? Scherzer?

Remember how pissed we were when the Cards missed out on Price? No one is too upset about that now. You have to develop starters from within, something we’re actually fairly decent at until Matheny gets ahold of them.

it seems that one of the few things this team does better than the average team is develop starting pitching. You take Meathead out of the equation. Maybe that would apply to relievers too?

Yes, I think the market has adjusted more conservatively for pitchers in free agency more recently too. I'm sure you will still have some dumbasses whose owners can't help themselves from time to time. I wonder if in response you might see pitchers more open to deals like CMart got. Bird in the hand. I don't mind the DeJong, even Wong type deals. If you miss you aren't out crippling money and you are likely paying closer for future production than past.

The NFL learned years ago that the 2nd contract was the prime and best years. the correlation in MLB would usually be to pay for those years starting immediately after the 6 years of MLB service time. They are 24-26 years old. I think this off season it changed to follow the NFL’s lead, pay for future performance, not past.

Yadi type contracts are rare and going to get rarer. He’s not the best in the game. But, he’s still one of the best catchers in the NL. He’s not hitting .200 and still plays with passion. Ya never know but it looks like he may make it to the end without embrassing himself.

It's not typical that a player is that age after their first 6 years of MLB service time. It's more like 28-30.

MLB really needs to reduce the requirements for FA.

Maybe for a typical MLB player but not for someone that is going to get $100+ million contract.

Going forward, the high end players that are going to get those $100+ million contracts after their 6 years of service time have probably been drafted young out of high school. Prospered in the minors and quickly promoted to the big show and are prospering at that level too. Kind of like your own Baez, Bryant, Russell etc.

After last nights debacle l thought, okay hoped there maybe some sense of urgency might appear somewhere in the Cardinals organization but nooooooo same lineup except for now we have Fowler starting.:shake:

None of those players will be younger than 28 when they can be a FA. Bryant wont be a FA til hes 30.

In fact, the ONLY player on the Cubs roster that have been/would be able to be a FA before 28 was Jason Heyward at 26 years old.

Even ex-Cubs like Torres who is really young with the Yankees wont be a FA til he's 27.

You are talking about generational players like A-Rod, Trout, Harper, Machado etc.. fulfilling their service time at a very young age. You just dont see many teenagers make it to MLB.

whats your point? You think Bryant is not going to get $100+million? That it will be wasted money? Best years are behind him?

I wouldn’t be in favor of giving any 30 year old not named Trout a 8 year+ contract at top $.

My point is you are well off on your estimation of a players age entering their first year of FA.

Sure, Bryant will get a sizeable contract, assuming that nothing catastrophic happens, but will it be the best possible contract he could have acquired throughout his career if he were able to become a FA at the same age of Harper and Machado? Nope.

The current service time rules are very very very pro-owner.

l get that.

But, Look at Reyes for us. Not a lot of pitchers with the talent to potentially win a Cy Young. Next year will just be gaining strength. We now will only have 3 full years of top level service if he doesn’t get injured again and actually lives up to the hype. And that’s the best case scenerio.

After their service time, if they are still good, they will get generational changing money for their families and future ancestors. That’s not a small thing.

You'll have 4 years with Reyes, unless you trade him before his arm falls off the next time he's ready to take to a mound.

His arb years will be dirt cheap, comparatively.

Personally I wouldn't take the risk, though. Cardinals need a reboot.

They feel like how I felt about the Chiefs for the last 8 years. An incomplete team hanging on to a couple good players while not making the necessary moves to not waste the talents of those players.

When Reyes is going to potentially make an impact who is left on the Cardinals? Molina is probably a glorified bench coach. Ozuna won't be on the team unless the Cardinals extend him. Carpenter will be in a walk year and 34 years old. Fowler will be cut.

Unless the Cardinals are going to actually be serious about the upcoming FA and open up the wallet, I just see the Mets as the future.

I don’t think the cupboard is bare. While I admittedly don’t follow the minors like DJ and Hamas, there are several promising pitching prospects and more outfielders than we know what to do with. Knizer, Sosa, Perez at C and INF along with DeJong. I know not everyone pans out but it seems to me the biggest issue right now and into the future is Captain Concussion.

And I didn’t even mention Schrock...

Gah... bad way to lose the no-no.

Hold them hitless into the 7th and they’ll still figure out how to lose.

Even if they all panned out there's going to be a big void in the middle of the Cardinals lineup. O'neill is the only prospect that has at least a decent power grade, but 44% strikeouts aint gonna cut it.

Exactly

Shocked...

Can we just make Willie Mcgee the manager?

Just save DeWitt some money and just set up a ****ing folding chair in the dugout and call it the manager. Might motivate the team more than the current one.

At least Willie would look cool while losing.

You guys know I've been on the Flaherty train since I saw him pitch 2 years ago. But, come on guys, right now he's the best pitcher on our staff.

Maybe I'm grabbing onto anything positive. :hmmm:

The "book" is out on him by other MLB teams but he is still getting people out. It's not a fluke. He can throw that slider for a strike on the inside or outside corners. They cant just ignore it and wait for a fastball. His curve is looking better. He still has a lot of room for improvement.

He has a little Carpenter in him. Look at the video. It’s not some baseball platitude he’s been taught. He is not happy about the losing. At all.

From last night when asked about taking the no hitter into the 7 inning:
"We lost, that's how I look at it. Doesn't matter what I did, Doesn't matter what anybody did, we lost at the end of the day."

Mozeliak Running Low On Patience With Cardinals: 'Something Has To Change'
https://kmox.radio.com/articles/moze...ing-has-change

But does he have the balls to basically throw away a season in which the Cardinals are still in striking distance of first place but no real shot of actually contending and blow it all up? He hasn't been willing to in the past and its been no different in recent years.

At least you dont get swept by the Reds in a 4 game series so there's that.

He'll show the assistant to the traveling secretary what's up, that's for damn sure.

The poor peanut vendor in RF loge is probably ****ed. And I gotta imagine that Mike Mayers and Harrison Bader will end up getting optioned to shake things up. Oliver Marmol and Bryan Eversgard will probably be 're-assigned' and we'll probably bring in another of Mike's golfing buddies as a bullpen catcher to show those loafers out there warming up pitchers that we mean business.

**** off, Mozeliak. You don't have the stones to take a risk or the humility to admit the myriad of mistakes you've made over the last 3 years. You go get your stooge Girsch and take a nap or something. Lord knows after your 'being a GM is hard' speech from last trade deadline that I'm not interested in any more of your bloviating.

He was just saying the day before that everything was fine. Stay the course. Let things work itself out.

I'm sure he got some major blowback from the fans so he comes out with this new BS spiel. Not buying this. Just political spin to pacify a pissed off fan base.

Trade Mikolas. Trade Ozuna. Trade Jose Martinez.

I dare you Mozeliak!

It's okay guys - they earned a split. So all is well now.

God damn Cardinals can't even do a losing streak right. Get swept this weekend and there'd have been meaningful change. But no, they won a couple of games that did very little to demonstrate that the team is meaningfully better than the squad that has meandered through the first half of the season and everyone gets to keep their job for another month or so.

Look at the Reds when they got rid of one of the only managers in baseball who was worse than Matheny. Brian Price was staggeringly terrible and a brief glimpse at the Reds roster vs. their record supported it. Jim Rigglemen is as average as Price was awful. He's a 'replacement level' big league manager; someone who neither adds nor subtracts anything from the true talent level on the squad.

And the Reds, while still not good, are at least fighting through games now and have gone 29-30 with Rigglemen in charge after starting 3-15. The difference is obvious.

I just don't see how you can watch this squad day in, day out and not think that Matheny is due for exactly the same kind of treatment with Oquendo getting his shot.

Aw Boo-Hoo. You have room to blow a series or two. 162 games etc. I'm sure the 27 Yankees got swept by some team.


I agree with the lack of stones to make a move.
I disagree with blowing it up. Offense, sure but our starting pitching is excellent.
We still have Hudson languishing in AAA because they dont want the service time clock to start ticking. And I get that and agree. We are going nowhere so why burn a year of maybe a future top of the rotation starter for us?

Blow it up meaning trade the guys your have on your team that are producing and signed in the short term to get better in the long term.

Mikolas is on a 2 year deal and you got him from Japan. You could probably get a really good return from a contender for him.

Same with Ozuna.

I dont see much reason to keep those guys unless there's a plan to go all out on this 2019 FA class. Even if there's a plan to do it, is there any hope to actually persuade one of those players to pick the Cardinals over the other bidders?

Jose Martinez shouldn't be in the NL. Wong should be on the bench and Fowler should be cut.

Whole lot of turnover to be made in a starting roster.

Cubs aren't the 27 Yankees.

This team wont be winning a WS unless they get a consistent bat to put at the top of the lineup and keep Maddon from putting ****ing Rizzo or Bryant there. Maybe this Nico Hoerner guy will be the ticket if he can hit as advertised in the minors and Russell or Baez will be traded next season.

The Cubs can score a lot of runs but for as good as they are and with how many runs they score they get shutout A LOT and it doesn't even have to be a good pitcher. Any bum with a 5+ ERA can make them look like idiots at the plate.

I would think so too. He's found money. Should gamble with him on a trade for some possible hgh end talent but not sure things.
Yep. I don't see him signing long term here. Seems like the kind of hitter teams want at the deadline. We have to trade him before next season starts to get the max value.
But, what can you get from an AL team for him?

I thought he was going to turn it around after last season. He was sprayng the ball to all fields. Using that inside out swing to get hits to LF. Hit .275-.285. And now hes back to the home run on every swing approach. He's such a good defensive 2B. What a waste. Again though, I dont see any trade value.
Agreed and advocated for this in this thread several times. We have the extra money to write off the financial loss. We should cut our on the field losses.

I'd hold Ozuna; his value is suppressed.

I'd absolutely consider offers on Mikolas and Martinez though - both guys are pretty good candidates. Mikolas is unlikely to get a long-term deal past next season due to age and rotation candidates in the minors. He'll test the market at least. Martinez just isn't a National League player and his value will never be higher.

Martinez actually fits Boston nicely. He and JD Martinez could split DH duties while also playing LF (pretty easy in Fenway; Even Jose can be hidden out there). The problem is that the Sox system just isn't very good these days, IMO. Everyone points to Chavis but a power guy with a high K rate in the low minors, a PED suspension and a passable at best glove who only profiles at 1b and 3b is a pretty iffy return as the centerpiece, IMO. I'd be more interested in him if he were lefty. Sam Travis is a JAG. Groome has some odd red flags around him (though I liked him heading into the draft).

I'm as familiar with Houck as anyone in the country who isn't a family member, oddly enough. As a Mizzou season ticket holder for a bit now I saw pretty much all his starts his last 2 years and ultimately his JR (last) season left me a lot underwhelmed. Breaking ball took a step back, fastball command was spotty. He just didn't seem to flourish with the added pressure of being the staff ace on a team with post-season aspirations. And this is petty, but on Sundays when everyone on the team would go out there and sign for the kids on the field, he'd just walk down the tunnel. The kid was big-leaguing 4 yr olds; WTF? So Houck's not a guy I'd build a deal around either.

Bottom line is that I just don't like the Bosox system that much.

Well, my Pirates are free falling.

Hudson isn't a top of the rotation starter, IMO. Solid #3. Let's set aside Rick Porcello's flukey-ass 2016 where he stole a CY, the 2.5-3 win pitcher he's been essentially every other year of his career is probably your best case scenario for Hudson. Maybe a Matt Boyd, Jake Odorizzi, Kyle Gibson sort.

If the Cardinals are looking to bank financial wherewithal via cost-controlled starting pitching and use that to supplement the offense in FA, you hold onto Hudson because he's going to out-pitch his salary by a far amount of the next 6 years. But if the Cardinals hold him because they think he's an ace in waiting, they're making a mistake.

Make Hudson the sweetener in a deal centered around Bader, Kelly, Hudson and a 4th piece for Syndergaard and I'd do it in a hearbeat. If the Mets are seriously considering moving that guy, make it happen. Get him in a rotation with Mike Maddux and he'll win a CY within 3 years, IMO. His stuff and command is that good.

so who are our realistic trading partners? What does a trade look like?

That's what happens when you enter the season indifferent about winning.

The Pirates were an obvious collapse candidate. They not only didn't attempt to improve, they announced loudly that they didn't really care if they got worse.

So naturally, they did...

Bernie lays out the despair fairly bluntly...love the phrase mathenaging.

https://www.101sports.com/2018/06/15...p-mathenaging/

No idea at this point.

Seattle? His power would play down in their ballpark and he'd force Cruz into the OF full-time and his body simply can't do that anymore. He's a pending FA though and Martinez could be appealing to them next year. While his HRs would drop, the line drive swing may be a perfect approach to that park. Martinez really can't play OF out there.

Toronto isn't able to compete and isn't sure if Vlad Jr can play the field just yet. I'd be surprised to see them make a move that could lock up DH when they know they may have to stick Vlad there.

LAA has Pujols clogging DH. Cleveland has Encarnacion and Alonso. MN is effectively out of the race though they'd be worth circling back with in the off-season after LoMo's short-term deal expires.

He has to go to the AL and the AL is effectively decided at this point. We know the 5 playoff teams - Houston, NYY, Cleveland, Boston and Seattle. The only intrigue left is some jockying for the division in the East. So I don't see any major pushes until the off-season to add a DH type at this point unless you can get a 3-team deal put together with Boston.

The ship has probably sailed.

You are not wrong. The fast start gave me false hope.

The fact that we are keeping Sean Rodriguez is inexcusable.

He's such a gamer though. Who else would you want to have on your team in a bench clearing "brawl" over nothing? He'll be sure to get heated at something and puff his chest.

He is batting .1000 against Gatorade containers as well. ROFL

The spiritual successor to Jonny Gomes.

**** that guy right in his face. Chris Johnson can also eat a big ol bag o' dicks.

From people that knew him, I've heard Houck is one of the biggest dumbasses on Earth. No thanks here, too.

:cuss::cuss::cuss: This is so glaringly obvious watching the games.

This of all things is probably the easiest to fix. Swing. The.Damn. Bat.

A couple of quotes:

If you want to blame all of this on Matheny, well I ain’t gonna allow it to happen because Matheny didn’t put together this roster, and he didn’t negotiate contracts for Dexter Fowler, Brett Cecil, Luke Gregerson, Wong, etc. I’ll be writing on this subject soon, and the Matheny congregation will suspect me of being up to some evil trick … you know: the really insidious, despicable tactics like using statistical and factual information to back up an opinion, and for committing the unforgivable sin of proudly using an independent mind.)

If you want batting coach John Mabry fired, dream on people but it ain’t gonna happen unless Matheny is fired at the same time, because of their special BFF bond that cannot be broken … if you want the Cardinals to designate Fowler for assignment and eat the final 3.5 years of salary owed on a $82.5 million contract, it ain’t gonna happen … if you want Fowler traded, without the Cardinals agreeing to pay for most of what’s left on his contract — that ain’t gonna happen because no MLB general manager in the U.S. or Canada is certifiably insane … if you want Machado, it ain’t gonna happen, unless ownership and Mozeliak change the entire way the franchise does bidness with baseball trades … if you want Josh Donaldson — he’s an obsession in Our Town — it ain’t gonna happen unless the Cardinals are determined to give up a couple of good prospects and take the risk of having another player go to the DL; Donaldson has had two different injuries this season (shoulder, calf) and has played only 36 games for Toronto.

Thanks for the response but still :sulk:

I would let Trey Harris come over to my house and **** my sister.

He's just not athletic enough for the next level, IMO - but man you'll never meet a nicer or more genuine guy. The Tigers lost a hell of an overall asset to the program there.

I'd always heard that Bond was the idiot in the room. Or at least had the attention span of a caffeinated terrier. Hard to get a great read on secondhand reports from college students but with Harris the guy was just so engaging that you couldn't help but meet him in person here and there. Just a great dude.

Ok I am usually against this sort of thing (posting a story from a pay sight) but this story is just too good not to share. -

Holy shit Sutter was genius and the Braves were stupid (almost the Cardinals).

His agent was a genius

Damn, and I thought the Angels got hosed on the Pujols deal. At least he's played decent ball for them.