Wow. "Just Fisting Myself" is really drawing the love today! ROFL

Because you are still trying to suggest that Suggs is a LB (and/or DE), nevermind that he is one of 16 OLBs in the 3-4 who are DEs (who happen to play some LB). 16 of 16 OLBs in a 3-4 were DEs converted into LBs.

You don't understand why that's important? It's because NFL teams are saying... if you're going to be a 3-4 OLB, we're going to teach pass rushers how to play a little bit of LB.

Again, the fact that you don't see any difference between a 4-3 OLB and a 3-4 OLB suggests that you're the one that doesn't grasp defense.

Hey, just out of curiosity, since you're so brilliant, how much did Jason Taylor weigh when he was playing a 4-3 DE in Miami?

Moron.


Actually, when I referred to "Hybrid", I was referring to the hybridized way in which the Suggs grievance was resolved. He was paid as a DE/LB, which is the hybrid. Again, had you actually bothered to read the posts, you'd have known that.

I didn't say they were the same, other than both being linebackers. Seriously, reading comprehension would go a long way for you, I think.

Suggs IS a linebacker, in the 3-4. I never claimed he was identical to a 4-3 LB. Again, if you people would read posts rather than just jumping on people, this sort of wasted time could be avoided.

And you're the moron that thinks that Suggs could play OLB in a 4-3 in Detroit. Tell me how many 260+ pounders are playing OLB in a 4-3.

You keep referring to Suggs and Hawk as playing the same position, even though it couldn't be further from the truth. All 3-4 OLBs play the hybrid position. It is what they call a "tweener"--a DE that scouts thought was too small to play DE in a 4-3, but too big to play LB.

Terrell Suggs is a DE who was asked to play "tweener". As was Merriman, Ware, and every 3-4 OLB/DE "tweener" in the NFL (16 in total)
AJ Hawk is an OLB who was asked to play OLB

And again, you are suggesting that 4-3 LBs and 3-4 LBs are both "linebackers." They're not!

3-4 OLBs are asked to take on much more DE responsibility. Therefore, they carry much higher draft value than a LB. DEs are one of the most highly sought after prospects in any given draft. LBs are usually taken toward the middle of the first round. Consistently.

Now, the only reason 3-4 OLBs tend to drop lower in the draft is because only a handful of teams actually run a 3-4 defense (8 teams). So let's sum it up. Patrick Willis fell to #11 because no NFL team wanted to reach for a LB in the top 10. Terrell Suggs dropped to #6 because you have to run a 3-4 to get value from him.

Ok, please tell me you've never bred, because this type of stupidity should never be passed on. Suggs plays DE in a 4-3, not OLB. Hence the comparison with Jason Taylor, for example.


Actually, I don't believe that I've ever referred to Suggs and Hawk as playing the same position. Linebacker is a term which covers multiple positions, and those positions are different depending upon how you're running your defense. Again, if you would just take the time to actually read....

Stupidest line of the day, and that took some doing. Of course they are both linebackers. But, since you seem ready to change the world, start with Bill Belichick, since he's used both converted DEs AND traditional linebackers in his 3-4 systems, both inside and out. Clearly, that guy just doesn't know what the hell he's doing with defenses.

If only any of this had something to do with this thread, I'd pretend to care. But, since it doesn't....

The only player with a skillset even ROUGHLY equivalent to Curry's to be drafted in the Top 5 in the past 20 years is AJ Hawk.

And you're going to sit here and tell me you'd be HAPPY with AJ ****ing Hawk at #3 overall?

You're high, and it's not good shit either.

Whoa! Slow down there, slick. I never said that I thought the Chiefs should draft Curry. Frankly, if I were the Chiefs, my first leaning would be to Raji. That's never been my point in all of this, which is why I kept asking you people to actually read my posts.

This is a terrible season for top end prospects. There's no real difference between #1 and #21, except at left tackle and, maybe, at QB. So, since nobody is likely to trade for the #3 spot as of now, bitching about whomever is picked based upon 'positional value' is moronic. This is the kind of year where you take the player that you feel will most likely succeeed in your system, taking need into account. Other than kicker or punter, position shouldn't mean a damned thing.

Well it does.

At least to teams that care about winning.

No, it doesn't. That's pretty clear throughout history, actually.

Pretty clear by what? The massive volume of non-pass rushing LB's drafted in the top 5?

You're right about one thing - history is VERY clear on this subject.

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
Other than kicker or punter, position shouldn't mean a damned thing.So then guards are picked as often as QB's in the top 5?

I agree with most of your points, though I haven't read through the entire thread. But a smaller difference in value doesn't mean there isn't any.

If positional value were all that mattered, no QB would make it past the first round.

[QUOTE=Just Passin' By;5666521]Ok, please tell me you've never bred, because this type of stupidity should never be passed on. Suggs plays DE in a 4-3, not OLB. Hence the comparison with Jason Taylor, for example.

The Ravens run a 3-4, genius. Type in "Baltimore Ravens" depth chart and tell me how many times you see Suggs listed as a DE.

Jason Taylor is a DE in a 4-3. He does not play even close to the same position as Suggs. Taylor plays all of his snaps with his hands on the ground. Suggs does not.


You have implied it. Trust me. Everyone on this board knows that this is exactly what you've been saying. You have been saying all along that Suggs and Mayo and Rivers are examples of linebackers who should have been drafted in the top 5. And what I am AGAIN reiterating is that Rivers and Mayo are traditional, hands-off-the-ground, LBs who are drafted because of their speed and instincts. Suggs was drafted to be a pass rusher first and foremost. You can't make that comparison. Again, 3-4 OLBs carry high draft value. 4-3 OLBs or 3-4 ILBs typically do not.


Yes, and almost all 3-4 OLBs are DEs, and almost all 3-4 ILBs are you're more traditional 4-3 LBs. Don't act like traditional LBs have sometimes played OLB or that DEs have sometimes played ILB. Bellichick used Mike Vrabel, who was a 4-3 DE at Ohio State, to be his OLB. Notice a trend? Again. 3-4 OLBs are not traditional LBs. Almost 100% of the time, they are DEs that play a little bit of linebacker. You apparently can't see the enormous difference between a traditional LB and a 3-4 OLB. 4-3 ROLB, MLB, LOLB are similar to 3-4 RILB and LILB. 3-4 ROLBs and LOLBs are entirely different.


You keep saying that Detroit should have drafted Terrell Suggs to play 4-3 DE. And I'm pointing out that there's a very good likelihood he wouldn't have been that good in Detroit, because he would play a COMPLETELY different position.

I agree that teams take position into account. My initial point to htismaqe was that this was an unusual year and it shouldn't hold water this season. Naturally, instead of actually responding to that, he changed the argument to "winning teams" instead of remaining focused on one specific season.

The reality is that all teams value somewhat differently. That's why the Raiders drafted a kicker as high as they did, for example. However, people here are being so ridiculously stubborn about non-issues that they can't even admit to blatant truths about minor points right now.