There are levels to everything.

Being critical is fine.

But when it comes to late round picks versus UDFA’s that no fan has even come close to matching in terms of homework down maybe just maybe give them the benefit of the doubt before saying one guy is “night and day better” than the other?

And hold off on saying we should fire the GM of a more than competent organization beofre his second draft class even touches the field?

What y’all are saying is at no point is it ok to say maybe we should just trust the pros on this one because we lack the information to judge so quickly?

That wasn’t in reference to Fenton specifically moron. I’m talking about the “fire Veach!!” stuff. It’s how DJ acts every year when he doesn’t get what he wants on draft day. If you’re suggesting that DJ hasn’t acted like that before, you are 100% wrong.

Saying you don't like a certain move doesn't necessarily mean you want to blow things up and fire everyone though.

Atleast when I say it it doesn't, I only speak for o.city though.

The irony of you demanding we consider the relativity of any situation and then seizing on the line 'night and day better' when discussing a 6th round pick vs. a UDFA as evidence that I eviscerated Brett Veach for a 3rd day pick should really not be lost on you...

No he has actually called for the firing of Veach or at least it was implied during one of his rants.

It. Uh. WAS in reference to Fenton specifically after you first insisted that I bitched about the picks we made in 2019 and then weirdly picked a guy who I'm pretty sure I never said a single word about during the draft to support that argument.

Now you're just trying to save face. Poorly, at that.

Yeah, I get heated at times with the front office; sometimes right, sometimes wrong. Never argued otherwise. You, OTOH, call anyone that disagrees with you a ****ing ****ball ****tard. I mean hell, evidently I can't disagree with Andy Reid and NOBODY can disagree with staylor26.

So we all have our crosses to bear...

That’s not really what I was trying to do. I was just giving an example of you thinking Veach 100% got it wrong when he actually got it right. Fenton was a huge steal that you so easily dismissed early on because he wasn’t your guy.

I know you weren’t nearly as upset about the Fenton pick as you were the Clark trade and some of his other moves though.

Veach was pretty much placed on the hot seat by a lot of posters here, including me for a time.

Things have changed this year and it looks like he actually can draft and find talent in value areas after all!

That’s good shit for us

TLDR; Veach ****ed up on compensation for Clark, did really well with value players to make up for it.

I thought you hated the 2019 draft because of how upset you were about the offseason Veach had. I guess you didn’t, but you clearly didn’t think it was going to be as good as it was either. You were far from praising it.

I believe both.

Brett Veach has had an EASY job his first 2 years after he inherited a team full of star skill position players in their prime and an extremely clean cap situation (even with all the hand-wringing over Dorsey's poor cap management).

And with that he's burned a TON of cap space on effectively nothing and even the big money deal that hasn't blown up in his face could've/should've been made the year prior when Mathieu was looking for ANYONE that would give him 4/$40 million after he was cut by the Cardinals.

I've definitely implied it - or at least suggested that there are conditions that would make it the right move. If this team ends up in cap hell within 2 seasons of Mahomes contract being in place because of all the money they torched on ill-conceived contracts for luxury items and vanity picks, then yes - Brett Veach should be fired. And it will be because of decisions in his rearview at that time.

We shall see. Those decisions have already been made and can't be un-made. They can be mitigated in a HUGE way if Watkins and/or Clark come up big in the playoffs. Or if Hitchens can show more growth and make his contract more palatable this season and next.

But if he continues to show that he has an eye for undervalued assets like Ogbah, Wilson and Ward, guys who can at least partially offset his busted big ticket items - well I suppose that makes him break even in the end.

But let's not act like Veach is the architect of this machine - what he's done these last 2 years has largely been to coast on a foundation put in place by his predecessor(s) in Dorsey and Ballard. We're getting more returns in on his ledger and they aren't what's driving this franchise forward. They need to be in short order.

I absolutely praised the selections themselves. I specifically cited the Thornhill and Saunders picks as nice gets. My only disagreement on Thornhill leading into the draft was with the idea that he should be a 1st rounder for us - I liked the selection in the 2nd.

I think I was frustrated with the Hardman pick because the Titans took a guy I thought would be an excellent long-term Sam for us (one of the few I saw in the draft) in De'Andre Walker with our pick and that was simply rubbing salt in the wound. I was find standing pat and going with JJ, Campbell, McLaurin or Boykin and then using that pick on Walker. Walker's on the IR so point become moot (but McLaurin has looked like a stud).

I believe I said so specifically somewhere in the draft forum (or maybe the mock) because someone just flat out asked me. When adjusted for the picks we ACTUALLY HAD and independent of the wrong-headed decision to sacrifice that draft capital so we could give a contract to Frank Clark that he never deserved, I thought the draft was solid overall.

And my point is that, my ultimate preferences be damned, I don't believe anyone gets anything right OR wrong in the 6th round or later. I rarely even get too worked up in the 5th unless I have an eye on someone who I think is sliding for the wrong reasons.

It's blind, dumb luck by and large.

How is saying that Fields has looked like a better player to that point some kind of withering indictment of the decision Brett Veach made? Not the pick I'd have made, but it's a full court heave anyway so who gives a shit? There's no skill involved in hitting a full-court shot - either you were extremely lucky that day or you're everyone else.

It's the paradox of skill at work - at a certain point, when everyone in a zero sum scenario are at least nominally qualified, the skill cancels out and a disproportionate amount of the results are attributable to luck. By the 6th round, that's mostly what you're looking at because there's even LESS to differentiate these guys.

Jury is still out on Veach but I haven't been impressed so far. I know that upsets you but I don't care. Any GM who trades a 1st and 2nd rd pick then gives a guy a $105 million contract when we already had a good pass rusher is not going to be looked on favorably unless he kills it in the draft. Again, have to wait and see how rest of the year goes to come to any objective conclusion on Veach but jury is still out.

Personally I hope Clark comes back and kills it a long with rest of Veachs picks because I want what is best for the Chiefs but I just don't see it w Clark. I think he is overrated, possibly injury prone and was simply in the perfect system for him in Seattle. We'll see what happens, hopefully I am wrong!

If only you’d ever held your boi Alex Smith to the standard you hold Veach and Clark. They’re both worlds better at their jobs than Smith ever was.

If only you would learn how to move on and not obsess about a player who isnt on the team. Then you wouldnt bring up a QB who left the Chiefs years ago in a thread about an defensive end

Ford? Who only plays on 2nd or 3rd and long in SF, because he sucks against the run, or Houston who refused to renegotiate his contract and was "rumored" to not be a great teammate in the locker room?

Which one?

Houston refused a paycut like anyone else would. He would have restructured his deal though and we would be in a much better place if we had offered him a restructure.

The hindsight in this thread is incredible... Most folks were pumped when we signed Clark as he was better than Ford and played well against the run. He has under performed this year as he appears banged up but doesn't sit like Ford did when he was hurt. I also think you are underestimating the change in attitude that the Honey Badger and Clark have brought to the Defense this year. We are nastier than last year in attitude and it is now really showing up. I expect Frank to be just fine when he comes back and this thread will not age will. JMO

Don't be naive. If Houston would have wanted to be here he would have been here as we would have kept him for his Indy deal...

Maybe you should take your own ****ing advice, ya?

The paycut he was asked to take would have got him less money than he got from the colts this season.

Uh you should look at the Frank Clark thread when we got him. Most people weren't pumped and thought we overpaid. It's not really a bunch of hindsight going on.

There’s a huge difference between complaining about compensation and bad mouthing the player.

Most people thought we were at least getting a very good player.

Now they’re pretending it wasn’t just about the compensation and they knew Clark would disappoint like this.

You know if he was playing well people wouldn't be upset about it?

He was supposed to be durable and a better player than what they had. That hasn't lined up yet.

Sure. And this season he hasn't been a good player. Most people would have dealt with the compensation if he would have came in and been on pace for 13 sacks like he did last year. But he's on pace for less than 6. So now the compensation looks even worse than originally thought.

It’s just King pussy being a contrarian.

Houston quickly went south as soon as he got paid. He only played 43 of 63 possible games once he got that mega deal. His knee was permanently damaged, he was 30 and he had to have teammates motivate him to do something in critical times despite him “supposably” being the leader.

DJLN will tell you himself that there was a discussion last year about Houston being lazy and not being as good of a run defender as he usually was.

The whole mindset change this franchise wanted was basically aimed at him.

Yeah, I'm not on the 'we should've kept Houston at his price' train. I was intrigued to see if he could be brought back on a new deal because I thought he was interesting as a strong side DE in this scheme (which isn't being run at ALL like I thought it would be anyway). Houston doesn't appear to have been interested - c'est la vie.

But Houston wasn't the only option and giving up what we gave up for Clark AND signing him to that deal was among the worst possible options available to us. I'd have rather spent that money on Jones, drafted Murphy and then rolled with Ogbah, K-Pass, Okafor and Speaks.

It wouldn't have been a great DL - in fact it would very probably be worse than what we have. But we'd have Jones locked up, a young CB in hand and a far cleaner path forward from here. Instead we're left with "Man, I really hope Clark un****s himself..." and that's a pretty nasty spot to find oneself in...

I havent posted about Alex Smith since he left you dumb ****

Here's the thread I was trying to recall:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1015

No - I don't just shit on everything this team does. Nor do I give an opinion without (far) too many words on the subject. I rarely say something is stupid without going on record with what I'd have done instead and why I'd have done it.

Do I get 'em all right? Nope - nor has any executive in football history. But I'm not just this high and mighty, hypercritical ass you believe me to be. I'll view a decision on its face and respond accordingly. It's had me well ahead of this franchise on numerous occasions and would've properly ****ed the organization on others. So what? I'll be damned if I'm just gonna cede my opinion to the people in charge strictly on the basis that they're in charge.

I'm a contrarian because I'd rather have a player who had 9 sacks last year and is on pace 12 this year over a player who had 23 sacks last year and is on pace for 5 this year and cost us a 1st and 2nd round pick? Ok.


By the way, you never answered my question. You kept pointing out how much better the defense and run defense got after Chris Jones got injured. How come I haven't seen you doing that when it comes to Clark? We had our best game defensively on Sunday and Jones was a major contributor and Clark was on the sideline. Why haven't you used that same logic against Clark?

You're now busy talking about another former player.

So once again, take your own ****in' advice. reerun.

Nothing to add other than this sentence captures the essence of CP perfectly.

I’m still trying to figure out how O.City had my back against Billay...

I always cheer for you when you're battling billay.

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone would need backup against Billay.

I mean...it's Billay

Well you need to make it a little more obvious next time, k?

Touché

Billay was giving me shit weeks ago for saying Nnadi was a good pick. I’m pretty sure he’s the only person who doesn’t think he was lol

I think I stepped in front of that bullet after the Colts game because RunKC was flipping you shit for backing Nnadi and I had to defend him after a game that was probably the worst game of his career. It was admittedly terrible and all I could really say was "yeah...that was bad. Maybe this is what he was thinkin'..."

Maybe it was the Houston game.

Nnadi is my big sweet boy - I won't sally anyone trying to shit on him. Getting guys like him on the 2nd day with regularity is how you build a consistent winner.

EDIT: It was Mecca after the Houston game.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...3&postcount=55

Nnadi's a good player who had a rough day but these things happen. He's a big part of this defense.

I can’t lie part of me was like “what the **** is going on with Nnadi? Was I wrong about him?”, because he definitely got off to a low start this year, but boy did he show up big time on Sunday.

And you’re right he’s such a good guy it’s hard not to defend him either way.

I chose to interpret that to mean you were dealing with actual titty meat, not a poster on CP.

Man if Clark can come back and be a force this d is capable of being top 10.

We're so clooooooose.

I hope so man.. Hitchens is finally playing well so I'm hoping Clark was just struggling w the new D for whatever reason but hopefully when he gets back he will finally get things going.

Posting about a pass rusher that used to be on the team less than a year ago in a thread about his replacement is totally understandable. I don't see how you can compare that to a post about my posts about Alex Smith from years ago.

Stop it, DJ and staylor.

You're both pretty.

Staylor has a dumpy butt.

And in what ****ing warped universe does this strategy have a lick of sense or truck? The correct outlook is to assume everything they do is pure shit until proven otherwise.

Final Football Thought of the Day:

If Andy Reid is a QB "genius", then Alex Cassel was the worst ****ing Quarterback in the history of mankind.

Dude, you're beyond help if you refuse to acknowledge that Andy Reid is perhaps the greatest head coach in NFL history at getting the most out of deficient QBs. And he just did it again with freaking Matt Moore.

He's a QB genius.

He has to keep up his Andy Reid is awful look. Really makes him look like a complete ****ing idiot.

One look around the league should tell you we have it ****ing made with Reid. Holy shit, there are some terribad coaches ****ing up young QBs nowadays.

Go away & come back stronger or more versatile is the trend

Hope you guys realize Clark is 2nd on the team in tackles for loss with 6 and leads the team in forced fumbles with 2.

And he's just getting started.

Clark was never a problem with run defense. He held the edge just fine. The Chiefs kept getting ass raped up the middle when Xavier Williams and Chris Jones were lined up.

It changed when we put more beef up front with Saunders and Pennel.

See for yourself:



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/Vikings?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@vikings</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/dalvincook?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@dalvincook</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@chiefs</a> played their best run defense of the season to limit the <a href="https://twitter.com/NFL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NFL</a> leading rusher. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BigTime?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BigTime</a> performances from <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Nnadi?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Nnadi</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pennel?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Pennel</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CJones?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CJones</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ivie?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Ivie</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Saunders?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Saunders</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Tanoh?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Tanoh</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ogbah?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Ogbah</a>. The won the LOS all afternoon <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BaldysBreakdowns?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BaldysBreakdowns</a> <a href="https://t.co/F78hqBoNc0">pic.twitter.com/F78hqBoNc0</a></p>&mdash; Brian Baldinger (@BaldyNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1191362072967307264?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 4, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

King is clueless, dude

Xavier Williams was terrible.

And it’s early but Saunders is looking just as good too.

I’m absolutely in love with the Saunders/Nnadi combo.

It’s amazing.

Yeah because that is why we signed him to a $105 million contract and traded a 1st and 2nd rd pick. So he can get 2 forced fumbles and lead the team in tackles for loss w 6!

I want them to play Jones at end on early downs and move him inside on passing situations the rest of the season.

Think that’s a much better fit for him. He was bossing Rudolph and taking away the edge.

Nnandi, Saunders and Pennel inside on early downs.

A defensive front 4 of

Jones - Nnadi - Saunders - Clark

W/ Pennel/Ivey rotating in the middle and Ogbah/K-pass rotating at ends (both of whom have been better than Okafor) would be awfully tough to deal with.

Jones just seems more responsible vs. the run when he's on the edge than he is on the interior. It's almost like he's just trying too hard to get pressure and sells out to do so.

That's just a damn 'heavy' line and should be awfully sound against the run. And with that kind of mass you can just create problems for quarterbacks by simply barreling into linemen.

But you put Jones out there at end that often and he hits a different tax bracket. You're going to struggle more than ever to keep him here long-term if he can establish himself as a viable edge defender. Hell, I'm pretty sure it would even make him more expensive on the tag.

But I think that's a pretty viable early down configuration and probably the best group we can put out there.

Well shit...repost.

Mine's still better.

Pennell is a tank

I want Jones at DE!!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Chris Jones controlling a pair of blockers along the edge, allowing Ragland to get there without being sealed off and forcing Cook to cut back.<br><br>Jones is a monster on the edge vs the run. <a href="https://t.co/WsxSd0jooT">pic.twitter.com/WsxSd0jooT</a></p>&mdash; Seth Keysor (@RealMNchiefsfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMNchiefsfan/status/1192122706872938496?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 6, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Jones with his hand out of the dirt!! This is what we’ve wanted from Jones!! Be unselfish

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Chris Jones on the edge... way too strong for a TE, which allows him to absorb 2 blockers and leaves Ward completely free.<br><br>They really, really ought to consider keeping him on the edge frequently even when Clark/Okafor return provided the interior keeps playing well. <a href="https://t.co/voGt0IWVR9">pic.twitter.com/voGt0IWVR9</a></p>&mdash; Seth Keysor (@RealMNchiefsfan) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMNchiefsfan/status/1191894729513979904?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 6, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I really don't understand how you and some other idiots have come to the conclusion that Jones is selfish. Maybe he's just better suited to play at end, but to say hes selfish or undisciplined is ****ing reeruned.

Jones would be selfish because he was more concerned about making the big play than playing his assignment. Honey Badger called out the defense, made it seem like he was referring to Jones without mentioning his name. But Jones should be a DE and you can easily play him inside as well. I’d pay him Frank Clark money now!

This Chris Jones contract situation has been handled horribly. Hes been good for the duration. Pay him. Chiefs insulted him by paying Frank Clark 1st and now he will cost even more money than before.

Chris Jones is worth 18M per season. Maybe 19M if he pushes hard for it.

I'm sure they will reach an agreement sooner or later.

He's not going to take a penny less than Clark.

And he won't have to. Cap is gonna go up and there will have room from Watkins and Sorensen going bye-bye.

We have plenty of room to sign him now. The fact that it hasn't happened yet makes me think they're still pretty far apart.

LMAO

holy ****, Chris Jones in a two-point stance

Spags is a ****ING GENIOUS FOLKS

im ****ing lit dudes

those no talent assclowns on that NE offense are going to get BUTT****ED

When is Clark playing again?

He was full practice today

Limited actually

Oh. I thought I read that he went full. Whatever. Good catch.

Kinda random here but I’m not sure that it’s been brought up.

Clowney currently has 2 sacks on the season for a pretty bad defense.... I only bring this up because I’ve seen many cite the Clark move and say that they should have gotten Clowney.

Well... he’s been pretty damn underwhelming himself.

Well look at the compensation Seattle gave up for him and then look at what we gave up for Clark. If take the Clowney trade over the Clark trade and even if Clark was playing like he did last year, I still would rather do the Clowney trade.

Yep. It's not even close really

The Seattle Seahawks reeled in a huge fish without using much bait.

NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported Saturday that the Seahawks traded for Houston Texans franchise-tagged pass rusher Jadeveon Clowney in exchange for a third-round pick, linebacker Jacob Martin and pass rusher Barkevious Mingo, per sources informed of the situation.

Per NFL Network's Tom Pelissero, the Texans agreed to pay $7 million toward Clowney's salary to complete yesterday's trade with the Seahawks, who agreed not to franchise tag Clowney a second time next year, per source.

The trade is a coup for Seahawks general manager John Schneider.

Not only did the Seahawks secure a pass rusher who fits perfectly into Pete Carroll's system, but didn't have to break up their offensive line or give up a prominent piece to get Clowney. And if Clowney leaves in free agency -- the team can't begin negotiations on any potential long-term deal until after the season -- Seattle could recoup that third-rounder with a compensatory pick.

Frank Clark ****ing sucks
 

Comparing the compensation for Clowney and Clark is minimally useful.

If you truly believe the Texans would have traded Clowney in Conference, to a team they are contending against, like the Chiefs, for the same price, I think you’re way off base.

The Chiefs would have paid a premium for Clowney compared to the Seahawks (there’s also the matter of timing - The Texans had fewer bidders than the Seahawks).

Chiefs Website says LP for Wednesday, not FP. FYI

Besides, it’s been reported that the Texans offered us Clowney for similar compensation (1st & 2nd) before we traded for Clark.

But we were somehow supposed to know they would end up with no GM and that price would drop to a 3rd?