He is okay as AA rival fan. He trolls and talks smack but at an acceptable level that it doesn't go being a douche.

Athletic blows

Rosenthal has cred with me. He doesn’t post shit for click bait. His info he posts is usually solid. It was more of an opinion piece on the state of the Cardinals anyway.

Pay no heed. He's a big fan of spouting off half-baked ideas with only a micron of support, like the idea that Justus Sheffield is "dominating AAA," when his K rate is below 9 and his walk rate is hovering around 4 in less than 60 innings.

Saxon's piece on Hicks/Norris and the quotes he got from Matheny are very likely what ultimately finished Mike Matheny.

The Athletic still has writers that do actual spadework, as opposed to the guys that work for the local newspapers that can't afford to risk alienating the front office and losing their access.

Florial has 250 something PA's in A+ and you are trying to diminish it by say it includes all of 8 in one season and so many in another.

How the hell is grading someones performance at a low age and low level faulty logic? How the **** do you think he is going to be graded and promoted to AA?

If it's faulty logic to grade someone's poor performance at a low age on a larger sample size. Its even more faulty logic to consider him a top prospect at a low age when he's easily 2, probably 3 years, from even sniffing the majors. I don't give a shit how good your defense is, or how fast you run the bases, if you can't hit at the plate then you aren't going to be on the field (Hi, Jason Heyward).

Alex Reyes dropped like 10 spots after missing a whole season and not playing at all.

Florial drops out of the top 50 after 150 PA's on the season. He dropped because he hasn't shown he can hit at even A+.

And Sheffield is absolutely dominating AAA, Hamas. He got roughed up in one start for 6 runs. The rest of his time in AAA sits at a 1.52 ERA. What a bum. Not striking out 9 batters per 9 (56 K's in 57 innings... GTFO).

I agree. Its not a Cardinals thing, its just a human nature thing. A reporter cant maintain access to the local team and write objectivity, your going to hold back to maintain access. What good is a beat reporter is they cant access the beat? The team doesn't want negative articles written. They will tolerate one every once in a while but if you go after the teams decisions regularly, your going to lose access.

I also think it was the national publicity that pushed them to act. The Fowler and then the Hicks/Norris stories went national. Embarrassed the Cardinals. Billionaires don't like to be embarrassed nationally.

Cool :thumb:

Evidently DeWitt was very specifically pissed about Matheny's quotes in that piece where he seemed to relish being something of a shitheaded schoolmarm.

With the piece picking up steam throughout the week and the call being made on Friday, not to mention the publicly provided 'the team needed a different voice' justification, it's hard to say that the Saxon piece and subsequent outcry didn't play a major role.

Even 250 ABs is a very small sample for performance.

You’re falling into the classic stat line scouting problem many do when looking at prospects. Stats aren’t going to tell you everything or even most things about a prospect. Tools matter. Eyewitness accounts matter.

That’s the faulty logic.

Florial isn’t a perfect prospect - he’d be top 10 with his speed/power combo and defense if his hit tool was t a little suspect - but he’ll be a top 100 guy and right back into the top 25-30 if he’s healthy and performs.

Regardless, the original assertion - that he was Billy Hamilton - is incredibly off base.

We'll see I guess.

I haven't seen anyone rate him as the 50/60 rating you claimed he had. I've only seen one person write about a possible 30-30 player, aided by Yankees stadium.

Nothing he has shown so far in A+ suggests he has plus power with above average hit skills.

Wont surprise me at all if he ends up like Jake Marisnick.

Nothing he has shown?

How about the .303/.368/.461 slash he ran there at age 19? That’s showing “something,” and was coming off a similar slash line at A.

Saying he’s a 50/60 FV doesn’t mean it’s present now. Just means that the eyewitness accounts sees the projection for it. Callis put a 55 on his power and 45 on his hit before this season. You can find that on Mlb.com

Baseball Prospectus had him at 60 power/50 hit. And out of all the rankings systems, they’re typically the best at projection (Baseball America is a little lazy and favors higher level prospects with more track record).

From the ESPN story:

Longtime Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina said he'd "welcome the opportunity" if he had a chance to be player-manager during his last contract year with St. Louis in 2020.

"For any player, that would be a dream to be considered for such a role," Molina told ESPN's Marly Rivera. "It would be a dream. I'm not shutting the door to anything. I am very open. Of course, maybe I would like to spend some time with my family first. But if such an opportunity comes up, obviously I would accept it."

**** that.

I wonder how bad Yadier playing his favorites would be compared to Matheny.

I don't expect it could be any worse.

My biggest issue is the same one I have with a head coach trying to be an OC. There are way too many responsibilities for 2 people to do those 2 jobs at their absolute peak. It's impossible for 1 person to give adequate time/energy to both.

If Molina were to try to be the manager and would dedicate all the time necessary to that job to ensure that he's well versed in everything he needs to know, it would take away from some of the things he needs to do to maintain as an elite catcher, especially as he ages.

Or if he were to continue to work on his game on the field, it would hinder his ability to give the managers job everything he has.

Yadi's a smart cat and a hard worker, but he's not so smart that he can half-ass two jobs and still expect to be great at them.

Player managers are a bygone relic of an era when money was tight and owners needed to squeeze out every thin red dime they could from their roster (and generate as much fan interest as possible). BDW doesn't have that problem. His team is 4th at the gate and 1st in TV ratings in a season that has sucked by any reasonable measure. Moreover, he's a billionaire - spend the money and get a manager.

Player coaches are just nostalgia run amok.

I agree its a BS idea.

Molina is obviously thinking of managing post career. I still think Molina will manage the Cardinals someday. Which will eventually suck because we will have to fire him at some point.

The last player manager I can recall is Pete Rose from seeing it on 80s baseball cards. Completely agree it’s not a very solid idea to have someone do two jobs where each should be getting their full time attention.

Hopefully some of this Dusty Baker stuff being floated is just from him being an experienced manager available versus actual interest.

I'm sure it is BS. What did he do well in Washington? Chicago?

I thought maybe Giraldi but then I read why he was fired from the Yankees. Same reasons Matheny was let go. Why bring in someone with the same issues?

I'd bet that if the team responds to Shildt the rest of the way, he will be given the job.

Local sales on toothpicks went up.

You could do a lot worse than Dusty Baker, but he has yet to prove he can manage a playoff winner. While Matheny had issues with the bullpen he has issues with starters, rides them too hard in the regular season and then they are gassed when it matters most.

I’m not terribly well versed in who the other available options are but don’t mind the idea seeing how Shildt does the rest of the way.

Baker does have that old school mentality that probably appeals to DeWitt so there is probably some truth behind his name.

Use some of that money they're sitting on and see if you can get Francona to leave Cleveland.

Good luck with that.

Francona is seating in the driver seat with a team that has a division locked up for years.

Hence the see if you can get him to leave. Unlikely as it is.

He doesn't even have an opt out any more because the Indians picked up his extension.

It was for 19 and 20 IIRC, correct?

Good thing because Mo has already said that no matter what happens, Shildt is the manager for the rest of the season. Mo and Dewitt to evaluate him and other managerial options in the off season before deciding on the next manager.

We picked Matheny over him. That was the original unforgivable sin.

Yes

He would be crucified if he hired Baker. Of course as a wretched baby bear fan you would hope they would make this mistake, but I can't imagine a scenario that Baker becomes their best option.

I'd rather have kept Matheny than hire Baker.

That backwards piece of mouth-breathing shit has no business on a major league bench. He's an enabler and an idiot. He's a more charismatic, somehow less intelligent version of Mike Matheny.

I will absolutely be done with this team if they hire Dusty Baker.

My hope is that Shildt runs with the job. I really think he could be a good one.

Odds Meeeeee-kolas gets in tonite, per Ballagio:


35-1

The Bellagio is....not smart.

He's not attending the game as he's back in Florida with his wife who's likely going to have twins 2 months premature.

So, y'know, they should probably update their odds since he won't be on the field and all...

Me too. I'm glad he gets a shot.

Shouldn't you be spewing outrage over the travesty that Bryce Harper won the derby?

Trade for Clint Hurdle. He is a stud!

I can't wait until you guys pay Harper 350M next offseason!

I'd be happy to pay Manny or Harper $350 million. No issues with paying 26 year olds for 10 years. Not okay with paying 31 year olds for 10 years.

The owner is making boatloads of money with this team. Shitty team and still will have the 3rd highest attendance in baseball this year. Team value up from $140 million to $1.2 BILLION. Making boatloads of money off the retail complex located next door.

We have the money to pay either one and not hamper our future but they are not coming to the Midwest.

Which would you prefer between Machado or Harper?

Machado

A) Dewitt won't pay it. He's a bottom line owner and that would cut into his margin significantly. He's become a bit like Lamar Hunt was through the 90s. He doesn't feel the need to take big risks because merely not sucking will be enough to keep fans coming in.

B) If Dewitt DID pay it, I'd have a Harper jersey the minute the ink was dry. Kid's struggled his ass off this year, no question. But you don't just lose the skills he's demonstrated time and again throughout his career and frankly he demonstrated them for 6 weeks or so this year. Through the first 150 PAs of the season year he put up 12 HRs and an OPS near 1.100 to go with some absurd plate discipline figures (39 walks to 22 Ks).

Granted, 150 PAs isn't a large sample, but it isn't nothing either. I just think the pressure of his walk year got to him, especially when combined with the rest of his team getting hurt around him after Murphy, Zimmerman, Eaton and Rendon all went down and Turner was struggling/dinged up as well.

He just started swinging at everything. A guy who's never demonstrated a real K problem is suddenly hacking like a 250 K guy. That's not him and it's not going to be him going forward. If I had any concerns it would be over some pretty sharp declines in his defensive efficiency but as a hitter I absolutely believe he'll get back to being the force that he's proven he can be in the past.

Why because his father started throwing pitches before the rules state he is suppose to and Bryce told him to speed it up?

I dont even care. I dont even watch the HR derby and only tuned in for the final round to see if Schwarber won. Harper would have probably beat him without the bullshit anyways.

I've thought for a long time that its absolutely stupid to reset the HRs for each round. It's a HR derby... You get 4 mins + 30 seconds to hit as many HRs in each round as you can. Didn't Bryce hit 2nd every round? So as soon as he hit 1 more than the other guy he got to stop. Schwarber hit 8 more HRs than him and had the most swings on the night and was visibly exhausted by the time he was winding down his final round.

I'd have said Machado until he showed that he's not a shortstop. He's been somewhere between 'bad' and 'historically awful' at short this season, depending on your metric of choice.

Defensive metrics aren't all that fantastic but they can at least put you in the general vicinity and Machado's general vicinity is that of a really shitty shortstop.

So if I could get a RH third baseman with 35-40 HR skills and and good but not great plate discipline or a LH outfielder with 40-45 HR skills and elite plate discipline (provided that this year's the one-off), I'd take the latter. We need LH power more and while we have better OF options in the system than we do 3b prospects, I think Gorman will prove himself to be a big time keeper long-term and that's really the timeline you need to be looking at with a signing of this magnitude.

With Harper your ceiling is substantially higher, IMO. There's arguably more risk there, but his natural ability is off the charts. And frankly, this team needs a guy with his fire in the worst way. That guy plays like each play could be his last; he's just a damn treat to watch play if you can forget the fact that he came into the league as a teenager. Since his indiscretions at a young age, his only real problems have been with 2 guys - Matt Williams and Jonathan Papelbon. Both of those guys are monumental assholes.

But again - it's not relevant. Neither guy will be here. I just hope neither of them ends up in CHC.

Manny by far. Not even close. Manny ain't Trout but he's rated by everyone to be one of the top players in the game. Harper is a helluva player but maybe a little over rated. But, I love the passion and this team needs that passion.

I looked at his SS WAR and its 4 and his 3B WAR is 7. He is a force at 3B. He's not bad at SS but man 3B, the man is a dynamo. It would seem that if we pay you $350 million you can play 3B for us where we have a great need but he may say no thanks and get that money somewhere else that plays him at SS.

Manny hitting 3rd totally changes our lineup and franchise trajectory for the next 8 years.

Not convinced Harper is a more disciplined hitter. They both are about equal when it comes to swinging at balls, but Machado makes waaaaaaaay more contact.

Machado is also much less of a dead pull hitter and can carry a respectable average. Bryce is getting murdered by the shift because he pulls the majority of his hits and pops up most of his opposite field hits.

The shift isn't helping him, no doubt. But the shift was around in 2015 and he was a dead pull hitter then - didn't hurt him when he won his MVP. Moreover, his BABIP was great last year and the shift was around then.

It's approach. On the season his overall O-Swing, and contact rates haven't cratered yet because he was virtually impossible to catch off guard for his first 150 PAs. But since then, when his production has fallen to shit, it's because he's swinging at too much slop and especially because he simply can't keep the front shoulder in on pitches away.

Like I said - this is a new problem for him; it's not something he's demonstrated in the past. He's never gotten carved up by that outside pitch the way he has been for the last 10 weeks or so. And he looks completely healthy. I think he's simply pressing something awful and it's wrecked him.

I don't expect it is permanent. I could obviously be wrong.

I would obviously take either, but preferentially I'd be a Machado guy. For some reason, I don't know why.

I think it's that I could actually see some magical small ass chance he could come here, whereas Harper wouldn't ever.

I don't see a magical small ass chance either way at this point.

Perhaps had we been able to get one of them in the offseason, but honestly Matheny would've just made him miserable and run him off either way.

No, unless you have a time machine that can take us back to 2014 and we can do what we should've done (and what the Cubs had the stones to do) and fire Matheny to bring on Maddon, there's no way we could've pulled it off.

I'd convinced myself that some fresh faces and winning games could get that miserable despot to be less of a buzzkill. As it turns out, there's nobody he can't beat the fun out of. Matheny murdered any of those dreams in the womb.

I honestly have no idea what Harper is going to do, I think there's a decent change he stays in Washington.

Yeah, theres no way either come now.

As I said earlier in the thread, I wish they'd try and bring in Francona but theres no chance he's leaving.

I don't think the odds are as long as most say.

Ted Lerner is a 92 year old billionaire. What the hell does he care if he gives Harper $50 million more than he should? He's not gonna live to spend it.

Ultimately Harper may leave some money on the table to go to his childhood favorite Yankees or play with his Vegas buddy Bryant (I'm pretty sure it was Bryant), but I don't think the Nationals will simply get outbid.

And Harpers ties to Washington are awfully strong. In fact, before the emergence of Soto, I'd have given the odds as being more likely than not that he stays. Now I guess it's possible that Lerner could decide that an OF of Eaton, Robles and Soto is fine and that money should be reallocated to pitching or something.

I'm gobsmacked by the job that Kevin Cash has done. What an absolute homerun hire he's been for TB.

He just goes out there outgunned day in, day out, in the most brutal division in baseball and wins a fair number of ballgames. His 'ace' is a pussy and anytime they develop a hitter or closer, they get dealt. They lost arguably the best pitching coach in baseball and replace him with Kyle Snyder (yes - THAT Kyle Snyder; the Royals flameout - **** I feel old) and suddenly Blake Snell becomes a friggen horse.

The guy just keeps turning chicken shit into chicken salad. He's done a remarkable job. But sadly, the Rays picked up his option so his in TB through next season.

Don't forget that his dog is named Wrigley.

Machado is also really close with Albert Almora.

Gonna be a fun off-season but I don't think either come to the Cubs.

One year too soon. The year to move Heyward to make room would be next year. Would have been disgusting if the Cubs got Machado and then unloaded Russell for pitching.

So you wish they would have kept him in Chicago?

I was joking, but yeah you don’t care.

ROFL
He has tried to come in here and start some shit twice now and failed miserably at his trolling.

I wanted to hire Madden instead of Matheny. The fans down here loved him. He was said to the best in the game but because he was in Tampa, no one knew. You can check the Cardinals thread. On this one, I was right.

How does one come to that conclusion?

The two situations that you're referencing were not the same whatsoever.

Matheny had just finished his third season as manager in which he oversaw the club making the postseason for the third time in three season.

Renteria was a first year manager, who while a very good choice for manager and was probably a good fit for the Cubs at the time, was just that. A first year manager.

Firing a first time manager in his third season after making the POs three seasons in a row in his first three seasons managing a team would have been asinine.

Whether or not hiring Matheny was a good long term move by the Cardinals can be debated, but not firing a guy who just made the POs his first three seasons as manager is not something worth arguing about. The Cubs deserve credit for having the "stones" to fire, by all accounts, a good baseball coach for an even better one after year 1. If the Cardinals had fired Matheny for Maddon, while Maddon is a better manager, would have created an incredibly toxic environment for the club, IMO.

If anything, complain how the front office chose Matheny over Francona.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Can report with more certainty: Machado to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Dodgers?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Dodgers</a> happening. Among remaining questions, in addition to specifics of return beyond OF Yusniel Diaz: How much money, if any, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Orioles?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Orioles</a> will send <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Dodgers?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Dodgers</a> to secure a better package and help ease LAD’s luxury-tax concerns.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1019404014088278017?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 18, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Well there's that. Glad it wasnt the Brewers.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Machado deal to dodgers is agreed upon, tho could be still some medical/approval to go. Press conference slated for Wednesday or Thursday. Many prospects going to orioles (believed to be 5). No $ in deal (LA will remain under threshold anyway)</p>&mdash; Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) <a href="https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1019436047376244737?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 18, 2018</a></blockquote>
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5? That's a lot of bodies.

As a Dodgers fan....I can’t even get excited about this. I know we’re just going to lose in he playoffs again.

Probably makes you the best team in the NL unless the Cubs starting pitchers get their shit together and Rizzo gets out of his season long funk.

But whoever makes it out of the NL is probably just gonna get their shit pushed in by whoever makes it out of the AL in the WS.

:eek: Why? Thats a helluva replacement for Seagar. Who's better than your team?


I think your the clear favorite to go to the WS and get embarrassed by the AL.

I think it was 11 more

Yeah, I should totally be looking forward to getting smashed in the World Series again.

Well at least you won't have to worry about the Cardinals sending you home early again, so that's nice...

Seriously - you fellas had Clayton Kershaw at his peak and managed to lose a short series to Mike Matheny....twice.

That's impressive.

yeah, how in the **** did that happen? Adams, who can’t hit lefty’s worth a shit, hits one on the biggest stage against one of the best pitchers of his generation at the top of his game. That’s not suppose to happen. Jinx?

Because you are defending Dusty Baker who was your old manager.
I understand it was the Cubs and they suck and all that but he did a horrible job with that team anyway. :D

Hey, the Cubs arent the ones in the middle of firing their manager in the middle of the season, trying to figure out how to get any high profile players to sign, and staring mediocrity in the mirror.

I'm not defending Baker, I even said he was shit at managing a pitching staff and burned them out in the regular season. I simply said you could do a lot worse than a guy with 3000+ games as a manager with a 55% win% or whatever he's sitting at.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Orioles getting Diaz, Kramer, Bannon, Pop, Valera, source tells The Athletic.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1019721269976207360?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 18, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Only one highly rated prospect (Diaz) and 2 guys bringing it up the rear on their top 30 (Kramer, Bannon).

Just checking in from Isla Mujeres to say **** Mike Matheny and **** yea.

That is all.

seems like the Orioles held on to him too long. Pre-Season they could have got two top 10 prospects for Manny.

Top 10? I don’t think so unless you’re talking about an org’s too 10.

Two top 50? Yes.

Org top 10.

Eh I dunno, seems like no teams are willing to trade high level prospects anymore.

Pretty sure in todays baseball that Wil Myers trade the Royals made wouldn't happen.

He's a half year rental at this point. Why did anyone think he'd bring a big haul back?

Diaz is ranked as high as #31 on top prospect lists in MiLB.

Considering that JD Martinez brought 3 prospects and not a single one even close to Diaz's level they did get a haul.

Not quite the haul the Yankees got for Chapman, but Theo was reeruned for making that offer in the first place.

I'm holding out hope that the Dodgers can bring him back next year. Yes, I realize there is a 1% chance of that happening.