Speaking generally, it seems a lot of people think any mistake on the field from a unit stems from coaching.

I think players make plays.

There are certain decisions that can certainly be blamed on the coaches, but like 90% of the issues I saw yesterday, I wouldn't blame on Toub.

I don't blame Toub for the surprise onside kick that no one expects, giving up some long returns to one of the best returners in the league, Butker missing a PAT, or Fortson fumbling.

If it were one game, sure.

But whats the saying? "You're either coaching it or you're letting it happen.

Exactly. Nobody even notices coaching if the players execute. Coaching is so overrated sometimes.

A surprise onside kick like that is extremely rare and not something that'll show up on film/tendencies.

At that point, you'd literally need to say "hey, watch out for the onside!" on every single kickoff. Players just need to know it could come at any time.

Uhh, why wouldn't you blame him for the returns? Butker can easily kick it out of the end zone for a touchback, yet we're kicking it to just outside the goal line and forcing returns. You think that isn't Toub instructing him to do that?

Do you think Butler was intentionally kicking it short because Toub told him to? Come on, man.

Uhh, yes? He's placing it JUST outside the goal line to force returns.

Yeah, but Toub might get his pick of, what, like three or four players on the entire roster? A lot of what a special teams coach does is working with what he's given.

And when dudes are consistently missing PATs, muffing punts, fumbling on kickoffs fighting for an extra 2 yards with 5 seconds until half.. I mean, idk. He simply doesn't have a large enough pool of players to bench guys for ****ing up.

I'm not absolving him of all blame, by the way. I'm specifically talking about yesterday's game.

Our kick coverage is pretty good. I have no issue with trying to pin a bad offense deep into their own territory.

I'd have given up on that plan before Toub did yesterday, but giving them an extra 5, 10, 15 yards of field position a few times wasn't a game breaking issue, IMO.

It's been a continuing problem all year, not just a one off.

By that thought process, nothing is a coaches fault. He's not making said play or dropping said ball etc.

Didn't you know that Spags is also personally responsible for every blown coverage and missed tackle as if he designed the defense that way?

Yea. Jax did it to us several times as well.

Butker recently commented on the change he made to his kickoffs. He is now using a five step approach rather than his previous ten step, in order to keep from reinjuring his ankle. He is not generating as much power and therefore kicking it shorter. You can thank the AZ shitass field for that

Still managed to kick it deep into the end zone every kick in the 2nd half. Because Toub finally adjusted.

HC beat me to it.

Butler, in his own words, adjusted his start to avoid reinjuring his ankle. No ankle injury, no short kickoffs. It's that simple.

There are environmental factors that affect kickoff length. I'm sure you know that.

A lot of the recurring issues I still wouldn't blame on Toub.

Kickers missing kicks and PATs has been a huge issue but I can't blame that on him. Guys fumbling on kickoff returns I wouldn't put on him either.

I will blame him for some things, though. Specifically continuing to stick with Moore at punt return and seemingly always instructing the KR to take get a return in. Those are obvious coaching issues at this point.

Yeah, I don't really follow the line of thinking that every negative play on field is either a result of bad coaching or is ultimately bad coaching because said coach is responsible for every man under his employ.

Remember the folks who were singing his praises for taking a practice squad player in Butker and coaching him up to be one of the best kickers in the league?

Now Butker's mechanics are off and suddenly the coaching isn't relevant it's just "Butker sucks"? Yeah, Dave Toub absolutely, 100% wears the fact that Harrison Butker is swinging his leg through like an unfolding lawn chair. The single most important player Dave Toub is responsible for is the damn kicker and right now ours is completely out of sorts. Why is that NOT his fault?

The up man on a squib kick has brain fart and tries to return a ball he should fall on and suddenly it's not a player being unprepared, but rather "Fortson was an idiot". So again I ask - WTF will we hold Toub responsible for if it's not making really sure his guys know how to cover a squib?

Your front line completely craps the bed on a surprise onside kick and it's "Well what do you want them to do, be ready for a surprise play?" Um...yeah. Yeah, I would absolutely like them to be ready for that. Does every 'surprise' play work? No - in fact, most of them fail. And yet our blue chip STs coach didn't have his guys ready for it.

They gacked a coin flip. Do I expect him to have those guys ready to say "Defer"? Yes, yes I do.

You're holding him to the standard of a goddamn equipment manager. This is a guy who has enough weight in this organization that we trade players away so we can keep slag like Chris Lammons on the roster. And right now his units are good for 2-3 god-awful ****-ups every single week.

And your response is "well that's not his fault..."

What the hell would be? If Townsend goes out there with his helmet on backwards? What degree and at what number does a trend of STs mistakes become something you can put at the STs coach's feet?

Because I'm not sure what purpose he serves here if none of this is on him.

Yes - that's exactly what he does.

He's states as such on several occasions. The team often prefers shorter kicks to force returns with the belief they'll stop them short of the 25 and/or force a penalty.

Any return against this kickoff unit goes on Toubs ledger, for good or ill. That's 100% his call.

Umm, did you miss the part where Butker got hurt? lol Come tf on, bro, you are being ridiculous. We tried shutting him down and lost two games in large part to replacement kickers blowing it.

That fumble was 100% on Fortson. Any player has to know that you gain absolutely nothing by advancing in that situation.

Do we blame Andy any time Pat throws a boneheaded INT? Do we blame Spagnuolo when Chris Jones does some stupid shit? Because I specifically remember you saying there's nothing Spags could say to Jones after he blew that Indy game with his taunting. "He's a professional and he'll do better next time". Well that's what I expect from Fortson.

I would expect them to be ready for a surprise play, but again, there is no tendency shown for surprise onside kicks. The guys up front need to be ready for that on every kickoff. They weren't this time and that sort of thing will happen sometimes. Toub's been here how long? That's the first time it's happened as far as I can remember.

Butker had a serios injury. The fact that people keep skipping that fact is mind boggling.

I didn’t notice Travon Walker a single time yesterday. Now that I’m seeing more about him holy shit.

Getting blocked by a RB who doesn’t have the angle on you is flat out embarrassing for a 1st overall DL

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Chiefs</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/JetMckinnon1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JetMckinnon1</a> in blitz pickup; looking like an all-pro RG! This should get the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/chiefskingdom?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#chiefskingdom</a> excited and beyond. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BaldysBreakdowns?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BaldysBreakdowns</a> <a href="https://t.co/zirGGZ9CL6">pic.twitter.com/zirGGZ9CL6</a></p>&mdash; Brian Baldinger (@BaldyNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1592230689818447873?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 14, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I mentioned it in his thread, but McKinnon is listed at 5'9" 209. He looks absolutely tiny out there so you'd imagine those numbers are inflated. At the same time, a guy who's 5'9" 190 (like I imagine he is) should not be this good at pass pro so maybe he is just as dense as a rock.

That's why they hammer 'fast feet' into as soon as you start playing football.

Biiiiiig long stride to try to gain a corner and suddenly Walker can't even begin to change direction and McKinnon just uses his momentum against him to take him completely out of the play.

Fast feet, small strides, explosive movements. Long-strides will get you beat regardless of the position you play. You may get lucky with some euro-step bullshit every now and again, but you need to stay compact and powerful in this sport.

Walker very clearly didn't.

So I was getting home from the airport, went to a bar to get wings for the kids and missed some of the stuff.

How did we **** up the coin toss? Did they talk abou that somewhere?

Smart football player. He knows his size gives him leverage if he stays disciplined in his blocking. He almost always uses good technique.

When it's bad situational football? Yeah - especially when PM was younger and that stuff was being coached into him.

And people blamed Bob Sutton for every thin red dime worth of stupid shit Chris Jones pulled. As for the taunting foul - that's emotion and maturity; I'm not sure how you 'coach' that out of him. Or that you'd even want to - you take the good with the bad with that sort of thing.

Fortson returning a ball he should've fallen on is simple preparation. It's a guy who was on a return team who simply didn't have the necessary wherewithal to do something that damn sure SHOULD'VE been brained into him.

They're completely different scenarios.

And when it comes so soon after another kickoff coverage gaffe, at a point it becomes a trend.

As for Butker - well I don't mind giving him some rope there because you don't really want to be teaching Butker to play the slice. That's how bad habits happen. But while it's fair to say "he's hurt" - it's also fair to say that this isn't the first time that Butker has fallen into a mechanical funk. And it's up to Toub to guide him out of those.

The only potential outlier I'd call out is Nick Bosa and the only reason I even bring him up is because I was watching him closely the other week and he seems to have mastered this long stride, lower center of gravity run.

And I call it a run and not a pass rush burst because I watched him chase a ball carrier down field from behind and he kept the same running style. Its like the repetitiveness of his pass rush reps has changed his permanent running style. It was kind of funny watching him run down the field like he was pass rushing.

Damn man, amazing display... picks up one guy and redirects him, then comes off and takes yet another out