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-   -   Keitzman is hammering CP on 810 (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=114562)

milkman 04-20-2005 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRR
The Cardinals were used as an example, not a benchmark. And how many Pro Bowlers on offense have the Broncos drafted in the same time frame? If you averaged it out, I believe every team (offensively and defensively) would have similiar numbers as far as drafting Pro Bowlers.

With the way FA is, the draft plays less and less of a role every year.

And again, when did an invitation to the Pro Bowl start equaling exceptional talent? Look at Tory James and Deltha O"Neal for 2 perfect examples.
I would disagree with that.
You need the draft to build a core group of talent, and FA to finish up the product.

But with Carl, we have to put together that core group through FA, and then try to finish it up with the draft.

And that plan ain't working, cause Carl can't draft.

And we are using that plan, because Carl can't draft.

The Bad Guy 04-20-2005 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRR
Until Keitzman produces stats of what other NFL teams have done (offensively and defensively) in the same time span, then I really could care less.

How many Pro Bowl D players have the Cardinals drafted, etc....

And when did the "Pro Bowl" become the definition of a quality football player?
Pro Bowl is certainly the bench mark they use when defining a player.

Cardinals have drafted Simeon Rice, Aeneas Williams, Jamir Miller, Eric Swann are just ones I can think of off the top of my head on defense.

But regardless, so the Cardinals have sucked at drafting that gives Carl a pass?

That's like a kid bringing home his report card and his parents asked him why he failed and then he says, "Well my best friend failed too."

Tribal Warfare 04-20-2005 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcroft
You've been here long enough to make over 2000 posts (on this screenname, anyway), and you still think there's such a thing as "rhetorical" at ChiefsPlanet?
nlm

jcroft 04-20-2005 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare
nlm
Hehe. I'm just f'ing with ya, man. :D

TRR 04-20-2005 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk13
I don't agree with that. Free agency is a tool that should be used to make a few moves to put a team over the top that has drafted well. If you look at the Pats, Eagles, Colts, etc... that's how successful teams do it. Sometimes I think the Chiefs are lucky to be as good as they are, because we just don't draft well at all. You look at these top playoff teams year in and year out, and the Pats draft extremely well as we know, the Colts drafted a slew of offensive studs, the Falcons drafted guys like Vick and Kerney and Brooking and Crumpler, the Eagles drafted McNabb and maybe the best secondary in the game, the Steelers drafted Roethlisberger last year, to go along with guys like Hines Ward and several defensive players... we don't compare to any of those teams. We drafted Will Shields ages ago, Tony Gonzalez, Dante Hall, a couple safeties who fell off the earth last year, Warfield, Larry Johnson and Jared Allen. Is that it? I don't know, just doesn't seem comparable.
You can't possibly say that the draft has the same impact now as it did when Peterson first got to Kansas City. Year after year, teams can stock up in FA, and draft players strictly for depth purposes. When Peterson first arrived in KC, your 1st round pick had to be a player that could come in and start right away. Not so with the way the salary cap can be jostled around now days.

The draft is still important, no doubt. But because of FA, a player will be drafted in the first round, ride the pine for 2 to 3 seasons, have one good season, and depart via FA with a hefty contract. That is not always the case, but is becoming more of the norm.

TRR 04-20-2005 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bad Guy
But regardless, so the Cardinals have sucked at drafting that gives Carl a pass?
I never said that. And for the record, I do think Peterson struggles when it comes to drafting, however, I think every team has it's problems when it comes to the draft. Peterson will never get a free pass, I just think that Peterson does a little better job than some give him credit for.

Either way, Peterson is KC's GM. There isn't a whole lot we can do about it.

TRR 04-20-2005 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SideWinder
I would disagree with that.
You need the draft to build a core group of talent, and FA to finish up the product.

But with Carl, we have to put together that core group through FA, and then try to finish it up with the draft.

And that plan ain't working, cause Carl can't draft.

And we are using that plan, because Carl can't draft.
If I were a GM, I would do it just as Peterson does. I think your core players have to come through FA. NFL vets are proven, and can get the job done. The draft is too much of a crap shoot to expect draftees to become your core players.

FloridaMan88 04-20-2005 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deberg_1990
Yes, Carl, cant draft.....we all know that. Keitzman, the fans, we planeteers, can rant and rave all we want, but it doesnt make one bit of difference to the only person that matters Lamar Hunt. It wont matter to him until Arrowhead is only half full on Sundays. I dont see that happening anytime soon.

Good point, which is why its almost pointless to continue blaming Peterson. Instead why doesn't the media focus on Lamar Hunt and question how he can be seriously committed to winning if he continues to employ Peterson, despite the Chiefs having zero playoff wins in 11 years, only 1 playoff appearence in the past 7 seasons, etc.

tk13 04-20-2005 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRR
If I were a GM, I would do it just as Peterson does. I think your core players have to come through FA. NFL vets are proven, and can get the job done. The draft is too much of a crap shoot to expect draftees to become your core players.
I don't know about that, sure seems like most Super Bowl teams and other top contenders have built themselves through a core of drafted players, while teams like Dallas and Washington seem to struggle every year.

milkman 04-20-2005 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk13
I don't know about that, sure seems like most Super Bowl teams and other top contenders have built themselves through a core of drafted players, while teams like Dallas and Washington seem to struggle every year.
Exactly.

Logical 04-20-2005 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRR
You can't possibly say that the draft has the same impact now as it did when Peterson first got to Kansas City. Year after year, teams can stock up in FA, and draft players strictly for depth purposes. When Peterson first arrived in KC, your 1st round pick had to be a player that could come in and start right away. Not so with the way the salary cap can be jostled around now days.

The draft is still important, no doubt. But because of FA, a player will be drafted in the first round, ride the pine for 2 to 3 seasons, have one good season, and depart via FA with a hefty contract. That is not always the case, but is becoming more of the norm.
Gee then Carl was a colossal failure from the very beginning except for DT. Look at his first 7years (pre-free agency), other than DT there were no other instant starters and in fact almost none of them went on to become starters.

89 Derrick Thomas (only starter his full first year)
90 Percy Snow (never a starter)
91 Harvey Williams (never a starter)
92 Dale Carter (not an instant starter)
93 No first round draft pick
94 Greg Hill (never really a starter)
95 Trezelle Jenkins (never really even played)

C-Mac 04-20-2005 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRR
Until Keitzman produces stats of what other NFL teams have done (offensively and defensively) in the same time span, then I really could care less.

How many Pro Bowl D players have the Cardinals drafted, etc....

And when did the "Pro Bowl" become the definition of a quality football player?
One must also consider that the Chiefs thru out the 90's, didnt have a the luxury to draft high up on the board and didnt have a first round pick a couple of times. But regardless, Peterson has still for the most part, always tried to put a competitive team on the field each year.

Logical 04-20-2005 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRR
If I were a GM, I would do it just as Peterson does. I think your core players have to come through FA. NFL vets are proven, and can get the job done. The draft is too much of a crap shoot to expect draftees to become your core players.
So then you would have to agree that Carl is being really stupid forl not giving up a #2 for Patrick Surtain.

TRR 04-20-2005 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav
So then you would have to agree that Carl is being really stupid forl not giving up a #2 for Patrick Surtain.
Completely stupid. However, now that the deal went down for Buchanon, I believe it will take more than just a 2nd to land Patrick Surtain.

To clarify again, I believe Peterson has struggled at GM. However, placing 100% of the blame on Peterson isn't fair IMHO. Peterson isn't the only one in the war room on Saturday and Sunday.

I try not to get too hyped up about the draft anymore. I was livid when we drafted Sly Morris a couple of years ago, and I almost drove myself to the insane asylum with the LJ pick as well (that is why I am not a GM). So now, I just sit back and take it all in.

keg in kc 04-20-2005 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk13
I don't know about that, sure seems like most Super Bowl teams and other top contenders have built themselves through a core of drafted players, while teams like Dallas and Washington seem to struggle every year.
I think that's right. The league has matured and doesn't treat free agency like it did in the mid- to late-90s. Successful teams draft stars that they retain and only make occasional forays into free agency for 'name' players. Generally those moves are made as a luxury rather than a need. On the flip side, teams like us are left trying to correct repeated draft mistakes by gambling on older and/or injured players. Consistent success in the NFL today is clearly dependent upon a strong core of drafted players and, beyond that, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to connect our draft results to our on-the-field results.


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